Topic: CVT Transmissions

[inco]

On the weekend we managed to go and try out a Subaru Outback with the 2.5 liter engine and CVT. First time having tried it ( the transmission) and I guess there must be a learning curve to liking them. I wasn't impressed and felt disconnected in a way. All noise from the engine and a very gradual increase in speed.

When I was younger we had the old GM powerglide trannies available - two speeds that were labeled 'Pass And Pray' because you hoped you would make it. With the CVT it's much the same- you don't get that surge of pwer to pass other than the engine roaring away. Scary and very different.

To be honest I have not driven any other CVT cars, but I will. For now though I'm inclined to want to pass, at least on the Outback. The Forester does not have a CVT and the next time we will drive that. Dealer has just started getting in the 11's and there wasn't one ready for driving.

The Maxima is on the list and it has a CVT. It already has one strike against it because of it's wanting premium fuel and most people here know my position on that.

[tpl]

I wouldn't buy one.   Why bother now that 7 speed DSGs and 8 speed slushboxes are available. If an ICE in a regular car or light truck needs more than 7 or 8 ratios then maybe the engine should be retuned.

Big trucks: I wonder why there are no dsgs but with 3 clutches?  2 for the gearbox and another for the twospeed axle.   Same electronics, just bigger clutches.

[Weels]

I think i'd rather avoid them too.  I've only driven two vehicles with CVT - one a Dodge Caliber that was just awful, and a Nissan Versa that i didn't mind. 
The Versa was pretty lively around the city - got you up to speed pretty quick and then the revs settle down just as quickly.  It was weak on highway passing power - like you said about the Outback - lots of noise not much action.  It would have performed similarly with a regular autobox though i'm sure. 
It does seem to verify that Nissan has their CVT's "more right" than other makers - i'd be interested to see how a Maxima drives

[Thinking Out Loud]

Wasn't even a consideration/thought for me in making my selection of the SE-R (ie chosing a Mazda 3 GT or Corolla XRs just because of the automatic tranny).

I can only speak for this combination, but the size of the vehicle, the 175 HP 2.5l 4 and the programming have never left me flat in terms of power at any time....and that is in 'regular' "D" mode.  Go "manual" with the flippy paddles and the car hustles very well for it's price point. 

Massive warrrantee means no concerns regarding a breakdown (hellooo Chrysler?).

I keep hearing about 6, 7, 8 speed autos, ABC / DSG / multi disc / etc etc and I see $$$$$.  Don't think THOSE come with 10 year warantees and cars with those performance characteristics are likely being driven hard.

[wing]

The first time you drive one you have this odd feeling that it is not accelerating because you are use to hearing the gears change.  But it is accelerating just fine with all that noise, it is a perception thing.  Just have to remember to look at the speedo!

[Thinking Out Loud]

    

I notice the transmission shifts in other peoples cars much more reaily now than in the past, because I don't experience them any more in my car.

MAN!  You people drive herky-jerky cars!   

[dougjp]

Drove a rental Caliber for a week, and that was decisive, as in, never again. Not my idea of driving enjoyment, and marketing won't tell me what I should like.

[footlong58]

I enjoy the CVT in my SE-R... The thing I like about it most, is that its instant power, no shifting or anything, just step and go.  Its not like how you describe driving the Subaru at all...

The economy is great too.  Driving at 120km/h at 2100rpm is nice.

[Shnak]

The economy is great too.  Driving at 120km/h at 2100rpm is nice.

See, that's the thing. Everyone talks about CVT=economy. Is there a vehicle where it had a 4 or 5 speed traditional automatic transmission one year and then replaced by a CVT the next? I'd be curious to see the change in fuel economy. I could see the city rating improving a bit, but highway rating should remain the same I would think...

[Dante]

Not extensive experience with CVTs (only drove the Mitsu Lancer and Outlander), but I would not buy one in any car.
They are fine for a normal drive, but if you need/like to push the gas pedal, I don't like the feeling, despite the fact that the speedo is going up. You hear a lot of noise and don't feel any rush.
Nissan's CVT are said to be the best. I will revisit Mitsu at one point as they made some changes this year apparently and the initial reports for the Outlander RVR setup are surprisingly good.

[Gardiner Westbound]

A CVT theoretically improves gasoline mileage by running the engine at its most efficient RPM. The gain is minuscule, insufficient compensation in my view for the constant droning noise, rubber band slipping clutch driving feel, substandard durability and astronomical replacement cost.

Many CVTs fail soon after the warranty expires. They are unrepairable. Replacement is a $7,000-$10,000 hit! Nissan extended its CVT warranty to 10-years. Several carmakers abandoned them.

[safristi]

CVTs seem to run the gamut from Cheesy to Easy peezy...................think Jeep Patriots to Versa....the two I have tried...................Oh and an early DAF ...NO D.A F (not SAF) from a buddy in Edinburgh back in Mid-EVIL times.when 30 HP woz EXTREME !!!!! .....................Nissans version seems decent enuf fer a run-a-bout...but in a MAXIMA Me NOT interested..there are better ways to save 4% efficiencies IMHO........now DAF OFF SAF..............give me an ome where tha DSGs roam.....

[Thinking Out Loud]

The economy is great too.  Driving at 120km/h at 2100rpm is nice.

See, that's the thing. Everyone talks about CVT=economy. Is there a vehicle where it had a 4 or 5 speed traditional automatic transmission one year and then replaced by a CVT the next? I'd be curious to see the change in fuel economy. I could see the city rating improving a bit, but highway rating should remain the same I would think...

As a consideration, a CVT being 'more economic' wasn't in my equation (then again, that's why I got the SE-R!). That being said, the difference in L/100 and it's relative competitors with 2.0l+ I4s was not night and day compared to a Mazda 3 5sp Auto tranny.  If FE is whatdrives your purchase is more a Fit or Civic.

A CVT theoretically improves gasoline mileage by running the engine at its most efficient RPM. The gain is minuscule, insufficient compensation in my view for the constant droning noise, rubber band slipping clutch driving feel, substandard durability and astronomical replacement cost.

I would supose the substantial cost and complexity of an 8 speed (why not 10? 12?) for the gain in economy is relatively modest.  Give some of these eventually mass-produced (cheap) 7 / 8 / 9 speed autos about 36 months of use before they are 'superior' in reliability.  They sure as heck won't be 'cheap' to replace.

Many CVTs fail soon after the warranty expires. They are unrepairable. Replacement is a $7,000-$10,000 hit! Nissan extended its CVT warranty to 10-years. Several carmakers abandoned them.

Link required please to substantiate this lossey-goosey comment.  My warantee is still good for another 8 years.  Thanks! 

[Shnak]

The economy is great too.  Driving at 120km/h at 2100rpm is nice.

See, that's the thing. Everyone talks about CVT=economy. Is there a vehicle where it had a 4 or 5 speed traditional automatic transmission one year and then replaced by a CVT the next? I'd be curious to see the change in fuel economy. I could see the city rating improving a bit, but highway rating should remain the same I would think...

As a consideration, a CVT being 'more economic' wasn't in my equation (then again, that's why I got the SE-R!). That being said, the difference in L/100 and it's relative competitors with 2.0l+ I4s was not night and day compared to a Mazda 3 5sp Auto tranny.  If FE is whatdrives your purchase is more a Fit or Civic.

I know that... but I'd be curious to see just how much more economic a CVT is compared to a regular automatic transmission. It's hard to view a straight comparison because cars are usually completely overhauled/redesigned when a car switches to a CVT... maybe the SX4 when it had the 4-speed auto and now the CVT. I'll look for numbers after lunch.

[Dante]

If you Google "Nissan CVT transmission problems" for example you find a lot of posts from all over the world on this topic.
It seems like Nissan extended the CVT warranty in 2009 for all CVT equipped vehicles, including the ones already sold, which is an indication that there is a real issue here. Probably they wanted to avoid massive bad press at all costs given that almost all their line-up uses CVTs.

Few weeks ago I was talking to the top mechanic at my Mitsu dealership and he said he had few CVTs in the Lancer failing. They are not repairable and it's a straight replacement. Mitsu uses a Jatco unit as well.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

I was given a ride to work in a new Outback service vehicle. I hated it, and I wasn't even the one driving!

I won't buy a CVT equipped car. I really dislike their characteristics. They are all just different flavours of bad.

The Japanese brands still use them, but the NA and Euros have mostly dropped them for DSG style transmissions, which I could live with.

[dash]

I was told that CVT is based on the same tech. of a skidoo tranny, less complex and easier to repair? I have one in may car, took a very short time to get used to it, find it very smooth. Accelerate easy and it shifts around 1500rpm, push it more and tach stays around 2.5-3k rpm until speed desired, stomp on it and tach stays near the redline, until you back off.  I can’t compare gas mileage,  I’m avg 8.8 L/Km mixed driving skewed towards highway usage (V6).
No problems so far (40k-only). Extended warranty has taken some risk out the equation of cost of ownership.

[Thinking Out Loud]

If you Google "Nissan CVT transmission problems" for example you find a lot of posts from all over the world on this topic.
It seems like Nissan extended the CVT warranty in 2009 for all CVT equipped vehicles, including the ones already sold, which is an indication that there is a real issue here. Probably they wanted to avoid massive bad press at all costs given that almost all their line-up uses CVTs.

Few weeks ago I was talking to the top mechanic at my Mitsu dealership and he said he had few CVTs in the Lancer failing. They are not repairable and it's a straight replacement. Mitsu uses a Jatco unit as well.

I don't (typically) rely on statistics from a service that attracts those with a forum to and a global megaphone to complain as a scientific poll, unless everyone that DOESN'T have a problem was similarly attracted to it for a reasonable balance.  Whicb the web does not.  Tons of documented gripes about Chrysler trannies going south and people keep on buying them.  Others have them and swear by them.

That said, I will acknowledge that the CVT has had some properly acknowledged challenges with the CVT.  I would suggest that if the failings WERE that catastropic, Nissan (unlike Chrysler) would have cut it's losses and stopped selling them altogether.  This is not the case.  Instead, they are putting their money where their warantee is (unlike Chrysler).

Anyone deluding themselves into thinking the 5,000 pieces (or whatever) that go into a 8 speed dual clutch etc etc will be a cheap and cheerfull bulletproof cake walk to fix is in for a surprise.

[dash]

Thanks Thinking Out Loud for a sensible post.

 I’m sure there are some design flaws out there, but they are becoming fewer and fewer.

 Been a passenger recently driven by 2 different drivers, both shifted between reverse and drive without stopping (AT). One has to wonder are these potential tranny failures that would they be reported on the internet, where blame will attributed to manufacture?   

[Dante]

To me the fact that Nissan increased the warranty retroactively on all CVTs it's an indication of real problems even if you chose to ignore the Internet chat on the topic.
Kudos to Nissan for standing by its products; no intention to bash Nissan or other manufacturer.
It is strange to me why many Japanese manufacturers decided to go with the CVTs when they all have good A/Ts or DCT and fuel savings can be attained using those too.

I agree with you though that the new transmissions, even the 6-speeds may not be that easy and cheap to fix, but the CVTs seem to be non-repairable from the start.