Topic: Open question for Erik re: sig

[Mitlov]

"The Japanese view the car "as just another industrial product", no more worthy of styling passion than a toaster." - Tom Matano - Former designer Mazda (Miata, RX7, 929).

Side-note: except for the phrase "as just another industrial product," I think that quote is actually from Aaron Robinson of Car & Driver, not from Matano himself.  http://www.caranddriver.com/features/05q1/in_design_japan_s_sun_is_still_rising-column

Anyway, my question is this: Do you actually agree with the quote?  I mean, maybe it doesn't mean a lot considering how much some Japanese designers style everyday products like toasters:



...but overall, when I look at cars designed in Japan (not just cars from Japanese brands with North American designers, but cars designed by Japanese designers), I sometimes think "I don't quite understand why someone thought that was a good idea," but I rarely think "nobody bothered to think about how that looks."  Examples:







So...do you agree with the quote?  If so, why?

[Erik]

It always struck me as strange how a country as dedicated to beauty in design as Japan, created so many of the most boring automotive appliances. Usually, when they have really hit one out of the park, they have bothered designs from others, or hired non-japanese in to do the styling.

It is odd, of course, since Japan has a history of beautiful design in so many other areas. SOme of the worlds most beautiful art comes from there.

And here:



Japan has in the past managed to make artistic so many things that others would not even consider:

Making art out of writing:



Or putting beauty where you least expect it:







Lovely furniture design:




As with anything, you have picked up the exceptions.

Does anyone think this was a passionate design on anyones part:



or this:


or this:



No, most Japanese car design is incredibly boring. There are exceptions, which while not boring, are certainly homely. ANd then their are some, like earlier generation Civics that were nigh onto perfect. There have been some improvements in the last little while (I've had that up for the better part of two years now), but I certainly don't see many cars from Japan that will show up at MOMA, for instance.

As far as design from the pacific rim goes, I think the leaders are certainly Korea, specifically Hyundai/Kia. While I don't care for the Hyundai design language of late, I do see that it is modern and dramatic. Just a personal preference thing, as many here (and out there) seem very fond of it. Kia, on the other hand, seems to be producing some very handsome cars indeed.

Just odd how an artistic a culture as Japan kinda chose to let automotive design pass them by.

[Mike]

I'm far from a Japanese fan boy, but I think any country makes both interesting and boring designed cars.  American, British, German, Korean, etc.

Look at American cars.  The 1980's were full of uninspired boxes (K-Car, A-Bodies, etc) and the 1990's had such stellar cars as the Sundance, first gen Malibu, Century, etc.  Then the 2000's brought us the Fivehundred, Cobalt, Sebring.

The British had the whole line of boring looking Rover's before they went away and Vauxhall (GM) still makes a few sleepers.


I think the one thing the Japanese do different then the rest of the world is they usually take the form follows function approach to designing an automobile which sometimes leaves behind an boring look.

[Erik]

I'm far from a Japanese fan boy, but I think any country makes both interesting and boring designed cars.  American, British, German, Korean, etc.

Look at American cars.  The 1980's were full of uninspired boxes (K-Car, A-Bodies, etc) and the 1990's had such stellar cars as the Sundance, first gen Malibu, Century, etc.  Then the 2000's brought us the Fivehundred, Cobalt, Sebring.

The British had the whole line of boring looking Rover's before they went away and Vauxhall (GM) still makes a few sleepers.


I think the one thing the Japanese do different then the rest of the world is they usually take the form follows function approach to designing an automobile which sometimes leaves behind an boring look.

Certainly, the US and Britain have been going through a long design drought, where have been following the Japanese trend and they were producing cars as boring as anyone else. They do have a history of leading design tho. But it always struck me very odd that as artistic a nation as Japan is, they frequently turned to outside designers for their most memorable designs. Some of it, of course, is cultural, and Matano has spoken at length about the challenges he had getting the executives at Mazda to step far enough back from a car to really take it in as a complete design. (Apparently the Japanese even sit much closer to the TV the north Americans do. Fascinating stuff.)

I was a huge fan of Japanese anime, and marvelled at the incredible quality of their work, compared to the absolute garbage being turned out in the US when I was young.


On of my all time fav TV shows, btw.

[johngenx]

It's a generalization that I don't think holds at all.

Many motorcycle enthusiasts scoffed at the original Honda 750Four.  Of course, it changed the industry, and created the term "ubiquitous Japanese motorcycle."

But, if one looked at the "boring" 750 and the bikes that followed, the passion was not in the overall style, but in the details.  Every detail was obviously carefully considered.

What about the wonderful "art" of building engines that don't leak, run smooth to high redlines and make shocking fuel economy?  Is there not beauty in making something that is so complex and mass produced that runs with such precision for years?

[Erik]

It's a generalization that I don't think holds at all.

Many motorcycle enthusiasts scoffed at the original Honda 750Four.  Of course, it changed the industry, and created the term "ubiquitous Japanese motorcycle."

But, if one looked at the "boring" 750 and the bikes that followed, the passion was not in the overall style, but in the details.  Every detail was obviously carefully considered.

What about the wonderful "art" of building engines that don't leak, run smooth to high redlines and make shocking fuel economy?  Is there not beauty in making something that is so complex and mass produced that runs with such precision for years?

Except that the discussion is about styling, not engineering. No argument whatsoever about the quality of the engineering. Japan has produced some of the finest cars ever made. Has there ever really been a car more perfectly engineered than a mid 90's Camry? Or maybe a late 80's Corolla? Cars that would go half a million km's with only the most basic maintenance. Truly brilliant vehicles, but surely not triumphs of styling.

[TopGun]

.....
Some of it, of course, is cultural, and Matano has spoken at length about the challenges he had getting the executives at Mazda to step far enough back from a car to really take it in as a complete design. (Apparently the Japanese even sit much closer to the TV the north Americans do. Fascinating stuff.)
.....

Some of it must come from their org structures as well (might be the same as cultural...not sure).  Many of the cars have great detail...but the overall styling of the cars is either derivative as a whole (240Z, Miata, Lexus LS, NSX), or derivative to the point where it's a mish-mash of other cars put together...which I interpret as them trying too hard to be something they are not.

I really like the "true" Japanese styled cars.  The xB comes to mind...it's not trying to be anything but Japanese.

[Mitlov]

I think every nation has had some boring designs.  When people talk about American car design, we think about icons like the Mustang instead of dull bread-and-butter cars like these:







But the Mustang is the "exception to the rule" of the Cavalier and Astro, just like the Skyline GT-R is the "exception to the rule" of the Corolla and pals.  I'm not really convinced that the dull designs of the 1980s were primarily the fault of one country.

One distinction I do think can be made is that Japanese design, like Swedish design, has often celebrated minimalist purity of design, whereas American design, like Chinese design, has often celebrated complexity of design and overt decoration.  That's not so say that no design thought went into a deliberately-simplistic design like the Volvo 240, but it is certainly less obvious than a 1950s Cadillac with its tail fins, chrome, and whitewalls.  Japan has in the past couple decades found its own complex design language, from kitschy baubles (Hello Kitty) to bold, futuristic lines (Neon Genesis Evangelion), but prior to that, I think a lot of Japanese design, like zen gardens, involved consciously-deliberate simplicity.

[Mike]

Fuel to the Fire - The Japanese loved the Safari/Astro combo 

From Wikipedia

In addition to being sold in North America, the Chevrolet Astro was exported to Japan, where the van enjoys a cult following. In 2005, to celebrate the last year of Astro production, Chevrolet of Japan offered a limited edition run of the final production models. The Astro's popularity in Japan comes even though it was only offered in left-hand drive.

[Mitlov]

It's a generalization that I don't think holds at all.

Many motorcycle enthusiasts scoffed at the original Honda 750Four.  Of course, it changed the industry, and created the term "ubiquitous Japanese motorcycle."

But, if one looked at the "boring" 750 and the bikes that followed, the passion was not in the overall style, but in the details.  Every detail was obviously carefully considered.

What about the wonderful "art" of building engines that don't leak, run smooth to high redlines and make shocking fuel economy?  Is there not beauty in making something that is so complex and mass produced that runs with such precision for years?

Like Erik said, though, I'm talking about styling, not engineering.  The styling triumphs of Honda motorcycles would be stuff like the CBR600RR (anime aggression done perfectly) and the DN-01 (the most remarkable, futuristic cruiser I've ever seen).

[Bubba]

And here:

 

[CatsEye68]

.....
Some of it, of course, is cultural, and Matano has spoken at length about the challenges he had getting the executives at Mazda to step far enough back from a car to really take it in as a complete design. (Apparently the Japanese even sit much closer to the TV the north Americans do. Fascinating stuff.)
.....

Some of it must come from their org structures as well (might be the same as cultural...not sure). 

It is such a different - perhaps even bizarre, or by our standards, defective - culture that it is no surprise that they have been as successful as they have been. Certainly that singleminded devotion to a cause has resulted in some very efficient, well-made products. However that same emphasis on efficiency does not bode well for the softer, artistic side of things. Those can be seen as almost diametrically opposed to each other. I think that helps explain why so much of their styling seems so bland.

[Mitlov]

It is such a different - perhaps even bizarre, or by our standards, defective - culture that it is no surprise that they have been as successful as they have been.

Disgusting vending machines aside, why would you call Japan a "defective culture"?  That's pretty harsh.

[rrocket]

One of the most iconic America muscle cars, the Viper SRT-10, was penned by a former Toyota engineer...

[Mitlov]

One of the most iconic America muscle cars, the Viper SRT-10, was penned by a former Toyota engineer...

"Tom Gale"--may have worked for a Japanese company, but when I refer to Japanese design, I mean design from Japan, not American designers hired by Japanese companies.  A lot of Japanese-brand cars are designed by American designers (Acura ZDX being one example), and the reverse is sometimes true as well (Chinese designers doing aesthetic design for Buick).

[rrocket]

One of the most iconic America muscle cars, the Viper SRT-10, was penned by a former Toyota engineer...

"Tom Gale"--may have worked for a Japanese company, but when I refer to Japanese design, I mean design from Japan, not American designers hired by Japanese companies.  A lot of Japanese-brand cars are designed by American designers (Acura ZDX being one example), and the reverse is sometimes true as well (Chinese designers doing aesthetic design for Buick).

Tom Gale did the original Viper.  Osamu Shikado did the 2003 re-design (was head designer).   He is most definitely Japanese.  Born, educated and employed in Japan with Toyota.

[Mitlov]

One of the most iconic America muscle cars, the Viper SRT-10, was penned by a former Toyota engineer...

"Tom Gale"--may have worked for a Japanese company, but when I refer to Japanese design, I mean design from Japan, not American designers hired by Japanese companies.  A lot of Japanese-brand cars are designed by American designers (Acura ZDX being one example), and the reverse is sometimes true as well (Chinese designers doing aesthetic design for Buick).

Tom Gale did the original Viper.  Osamu Shikado did the 2003 re-design (was head designer).   He is most definitely Japanese.  Born, educated and employed in Japan with Toyota.

Gotcha, thanks for the clarification.  I looked up the two generations and and forgotten how different they looked.  And the 2003 is more "Japanese" than the original--simpler, leaner, purer lines, as opposed to the rippling muscles of Tom Gale's Viper.

[rrocket]

He also did the Chronos concept, which many believe was the basis for the 300C.  So it would seem that ultimately, Eric's new ride was inspired by the design of a former Toyota engineer, eh?

[Mitlov]

He also did the Chronos concept

...

...

That's AMAZING.

[CatsEye68]

It is such a different - perhaps even bizarre, or by our standards, defective - culture that it is no surprise that they have been as successful as they have been.

Disgusting vending machines aside, why would you call Japan a "defective culture"?  That's pretty harsh.

Aside from advising you to read a history of the 20th century, look at their work culture, where people regularly kill themselves through overwork.