Topic: Open question for Erik re: sig

[rrocket]

It is such a different - perhaps even bizarre, or by our standards, defective - culture that it is no surprise that they have been as successful as they have been.

Disgusting vending machines aside, why would you call Japan a "defective culture"?  That's pretty harsh.

Aside from advising you to read a history of the 20th century, look at their work culture, where people regularly kill themselves through overwork.  

And Americans regularly kill themselves from sloth (obesity).     Or kill others by starting wars.

Mitlov...he also did the "Citadel" which became the basis for the Pacifica.

 

[Mitlov]

It is such a different - perhaps even bizarre, or by our standards, defective - culture that it is no surprise that they have been as successful as they have been.

Disgusting vending machines aside, why would you call Japan a "defective culture"?  That's pretty harsh.

Aside from advising you to read a history of the 20th century, look at their work culture, where people regularly kill themselves through overwork.  

As to World War II--nobody calls modern Germany a defective culture because of what Nazis did 65 years ago.  Why treat Japan any differently?

As to the overwork--rrocket is right.  It's a problem that's not present in my culture, but my culture has worse problems that aren't common in Japan.  Overall, society in Japan certainly isn't worse off than the one I'm living in. 

Or are you going to refer to the United States as a fundamentally "defective culture" too?  Maybe that's not a question I should ask on this board... 

[G35X]

“…I think that helps explain why so much of their styling seems so bland… “ – CatsEye6

What’s wrong with bland styling?  Recent Civic, Corolla, Camry… etc. are indeed bland, but they are successful sales wise.  It is not that the Japanese designers cannot design cars attractive to eyes, but it is the decision-making process at Japanese automakers that tend to choose conservative appliance-like styling design.  When they try to let the designer have a semi-free hand, usually it ends up with a disaster, such as the Subaru Tribeca B9 and Impreza designed by Andreas Zapatinas (ex-Fiat).

In addition to Osamu Shikado mentioned by rrocket above the following are examples of designers who shone in the right environment:

Larry Shinoda – 63 Corvette Sting Ray, Boss 302 Mustang
Satoshi Wada (ex-Nissan) – Audi A6, Q7, A5
George Nagashima – BMW
Jun Okazaki (ex-Mazda) - Renault 
Ken Okuyama – Ferrari Enzo
Norihiko Harada – Lancia Epsilon

[CatsEye68]

As to World War II--nobody calls modern Germany a defective culture because of what Nazis did 65 years ago.  Why treat Japan any differently?

Because they have changed to a significantly lesser degree. The conditions under which Germany moved towards WWII are quite different than Japan's.

As to the overwork--rrocket is right.  It's a problem that's not present in my culture, but my culture has worse problems that aren't common in Japan.  Overall, society in Japan certainly isn't worse off than the one I'm living in.

I would disagree. the overwork is only one very obvious symptom. Look at the way they treat females. I could go on and on. There are countless other examples.  

Or are you going to refer to the United States as a fundamentally "defective culture" too?  Maybe that's not a question I should ask on this board... 

Probably not. They certainly have had a cultural decline in the last few decades. If they continue on this path, I might agree with your statement in a few years.

[CatsEye68]

“…I think that helps explain why so much of their styling seems so bland… “ – CatsEye6

What’s wrong with bland styling? 

Nothing. It's just bland.

Recent Civic, Corolla, Camry… etc. are indeed bland, but they are successful sales wise.  It is not that the Japanese designers cannot design cars attractive to eyes, but it is the decision-making process at Japanese automakers that tend to choose conservative appliance-like styling design.  When they try to let the designer have a semi-free hand, usually it ends up with a disaster, such as the Subaru Tribeca B9 and Impreza designed by Andreas Zapatinas (ex-Fiat).

In addition to Osamu Shikado mentioned by rrocket above the following are examples of designers who shined in the right environment:

Larry Shinoda – 63 Corvette Sting Ray, Boss 302 Mustang
Satoshi Wada (ex-Nissan) – Audi A6, Q7, A5
George Nagashima – BMW
Jun Okazaki (ex-Mazda) - Renault 
Ken Okuyama – Ferrari Enzo
Norihiko Harada – Lancia Epsilon

Exactly. Nobody said that the Japanese cannot produce worthy artists. It is that the business culture there does not allow them to flourish. In some ways it is similar to Canada's reputation of requiring its singers and actors to head south in order to be recognized.

[Mitlov]

Recent Civic, Corolla, Camry… etc. are indeed bland, but they are successful sales wise.

When did the Civic become "bland"?  Five years ago, everyone said it was the most overtly Star Trek/Battlestar Galactica-esque design in recent memory.  Its detractors (and I was one of them, back then...I warmed up to it eventually) thought it was waaaaaaaay too far out there, inside and out.  Too crazy, not too boring.

[rrocket]

If the Civic is bland...what does that make the Cruze??

[CanuckS2K]

Are some Japanese designs bland?  Absolutely.  IMHO, Toyota is more guilty of this than any other manufacturer.  Having said that, there are just as many bland/boring designs coming out of Domestics as well.  The Japanese have created some amazing looking vehicles over the years and they still currently do.  Ironically enough, both of my vehicles were actually assembled in Japan.   

[mmret]

I don't think they're any more prone to producing boring designs than anyone else. That said, the big Japanese automakers do focus a lot on the mass-market stuff (Camcords and so on) and the name of the game there is most definitely "inoffensive styling". So they style for the market in which they want to compete.

The less mainstream Japanese mfgs (Mazda, Mitsu) and less mainstream Japanese cars (LFA, S2000, RX8 etc.) are styled rather more aggressively, as they should be.

And every country's car industry has churned out boring ass designs. There is a fine line between conservatively stately and boring. You could call almost all Audis of the pre B9 A4 era boring. E39 5 series could be construed as boring. E-class...yawn. Or they're all stylishly conservative.

[ArticSteve]

Aside from advising you to read a history of the 20th century, look at their work culture, where people regularly kill themselves through overwork.   
    
 
and in the US ppl are shot to death in their workplace on a regular basis.

[ArticSteve]

IMHO, Toyota is more guilty of this than any other manufacturer. 

An Infinity owner calling Lexus bland.  Now that's a good one. 

[CanuckS2K]

IMHO, Toyota is more guilty of this than any other manufacturer. 

An Infinity owner calling Lexus bland.  Now that's a good one. 

Infinity makes cars audio so I am not sure what you are talking about. 

Also, looks are subjective so what you feel is bland/boring might not be what I think is bland/boring..........which is why I started the sentence with IMHO.   

And yes, Lexus is very bland, boring, and conservative to me.   

[Mitlov]

Aside from advising you to read a history of the 20th century, look at their work culture, where people regularly kill themselves through overwork.   
    
 
and in the US ppl are shot to death in their workplace on a regular basis.

Meh, that's just media hysteria.  Obesity/heart disease, not firearm violence, is the real epidemic down here.

[rrocket]

Aside from advising you to read a history of the 20th century, look at their work culture, where people regularly kill themselves through overwork.   
    
 
and in the US ppl are shot to death in their workplace on a regular basis.

Meh, that's just media hysteria.  Obesity/heart disease, not firearm violence, is the real epidemic down here.

It's in the Top 10.  Hardly media hysteria.  ~30,000+ deaths per year.  But yea...Heart disease is #1.

[Mitlov]

Aside from advising you to read a history of the 20th century, look at their work culture, where people regularly kill themselves through overwork.   
    
 
and in the US ppl are shot to death in their workplace on a regular basis.

Meh, that's just media hysteria.  Obesity/heart disease, not firearm violence, is the real epidemic down here.

It's in the Top 10.  Hardly media hysteria.  ~30,000+ deaths per year.  But yea...Heart disease is #1.

The majority of gun deaths in the US are suicides.  Suicidal people would kill themselves regardless--it's just that a gun is the easiest way--so take out over 50% of that number.  Then here's a healthy number of accidents, which are no more indicators of a "defective culture" than single-vehicle motorcycle accidents are.  Homicides, particularly random crimes like workplace shootings, are a small percentage of that 30,000. 

An American is nearly four times more likely to die in a car accident each year than he/she is likely to die in a gun homicide.

And remember that the US population as a whole is nearly ten times Canada's, so you have to reduce any statistic by ten-fold to compare it to Canada.

[rrocket]

Aside from advising you to read a history of the 20th century, look at their work culture, where people regularly kill themselves through overwork.   
    
 
and in the US ppl are shot to death in their workplace on a regular basis.

Meh, that's just media hysteria.  Obesity/heart disease, not firearm violence, is the real epidemic down here.

It's in the Top 10.  Hardly media hysteria.  ~30,000+ deaths per year.  But yea...Heart disease is #1.

The majority of gun deaths in the US are suicides.  Suicidal people would kill themselves regardless--it's just that a gun is the easiest way--so take out over 50% of that number.  Then here's a healthy number of accidents, which are no more indicators of a "defective culture" than single-vehicle motorcycle accidents are.  Homicides, particularly random crimes like workplace shootings, are a small percentage of that 30,000. 

An American is nearly four times more likely to die in a car accident each year than he/she is likely to die in a gun homicide.

And remember that the US population as a whole is nearly ten times Canada's, so you have to reduce any statistic by ten-fold to compare it to Canada.

You guys lead the WORLD in deaths with firearms per 100,000. Even among wild-west countries like Mexico and Brazil. It's like 4 times what it is in Canada per 100,000.  And we own plenty of guns too.  It's not hysteria..it's truth.

But yea....heart disease is still #1.

[UmroAyyar]

He also did the Chronos concept, which many believe was the basis for the 300C.  So it would seem that ultimately, Eric's new ride was inspired by the design of a former Toyota engineer, eh?

Wowsers!