Author Topic: This is why there aren't manuals offered in more trims on consumer level cars  (Read 13107 times)

Offline tpl

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This is the case only in North America where we are suckered into paying 1000-2000 more for a slushbox. Elsewhere, the converse is probably true. I bet a major reason the sales numbers are as they are is that automatics are sitting on the dealers' lots....so that is what people buy.

In many other countries, when you buy a car you order it and it is made for you. You count on waiting some weeks for your vehicle to be ready.  Here in NA, the salesperson goes all out trying to move product off the lot...probably significantly contributing to the auto/manual numbers.

Most people in NA have no exposure to manuals...so they do not know how to drive them. It is not that they do not want a manual.  Those that do drive manuals, however, usually do not want to drive an automatic.
The "suckering" started a very long time ago, maybe even just before WWII but certainly just after it. The Big 3 and Madison Ave. decided that they could sell more cars to women if they were "easy" to drive and Lo and Behold... automatic transmissions, power steering, power brakes, electric windows not to mention those early automatic convertible tops both hard and canvas.   This campaign over 10 years was very successful and like all really good advertising, changed the world in NA anyway.  In Europe, England anyway, cars and gas were far more expensive and there were credit controls  and far fewer women learnt to drive and the campaign never really took off... as long as it was mostly men buying and driving, the manipulation of a standard transmission was a "manly" thing.
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This is the case only in North America where we are suckered into paying 1000-2000 more for a slushbox. Elsewhere, the converse is probably true. I bet a major reason the sales numbers are as they are is that automatics are sitting on the dealers' lots....so that is what people buy.

In many other countries, when you buy a car you order it and it is made for you. You count on waiting some weeks for your vehicle to be ready.  Here in NA, the salesperson goes all out trying to move product off the lot...probably significantly contributing to the auto/manual numbers.

Most people in NA have no exposure to manuals...so they do not know how to drive them. It is not that they do not want a manual.  Those that do drive manuals, however, usually do not want to drive an automatic.
The "suckering" started a very long time ago, maybe even just before WWII but certainly just after it. The Big 3 and Madison Ave. decided that they could sell more cars to women if they were "easy" to drive and Lo and Behold... automatic transmissions, power steering, power brakes, electric windows not to mention those early automatic convertible tops both hard and canvas.   This campaign over 10 years was very successful and like all really good advertising, changed the world in NA anyway.  In Europe, England anyway, cars and gas were far more expensive and there were credit controls  and far fewer women learnt to drive and the campaign never really took off... as long as it was mostly men buying and driving, the manipulation of a standard transmission was a "manly" thing.

Those women have been nothing but trouble ever since we let them out of the kitchen  ::)

Most men I know are just as lazy about driving as most women I know (just want to get from point A to point B without any hassles).  Most men I know prefer automatic transmissions just like most women I know prefer automatics.  And the women I know who like driving as an end in and of itself prefer manual transmissions just like the men I know who like driving.

Offline Jaeger

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Put a $1,000 deposit down, they'll order it for you, you test drive, if you don't like, you don't buy and get your deposit back. That's what Hyundai told me about getting a manual Sonata.

My boss has a VW Passat CC manual... he loves it!

I don't feel that I should have to put $1k on the table for the privelege of a test drive.  We're talking VW / Buick, not Bugatti.

My Hyundai dealer had manual Sonatas in stock and all they asked of me was a copy of my driver's license.

Passat CC and Sonata Turbo are more or less neck and neck right now, auto (DSG) versus auto.

As for the male / female thing, my wife is even more strident in her preference for manuals than I am.

Jaeger

PS - I forgot about my auto '87 LeBaron Turbo Coupe.  Then again, I've been working hard at forgetting that car.  :hurl:
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Offline No H2O

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However, many manufacturers continue to show automatics as "optional" at an additional cost of $1500 or so. ::)

Good point. Thats so they can make that extra $1500 on top of the $1500 PDE and $300 administration fee.  :rofl: Lets not forget the $299 for nitrogen in the tires.

And they wonder why they get such a bad wrap. Dealing with crooks would give anyone a far better feeling.
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Offline tpl

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@Mitlov.  I am talking history here. I am aware that nowadays 90% of people in NA want an automatic and I quite understand why they do.

Offline marineboy

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It is really a question of our aging demographic. The baby boomers are retiring and either never learned how to drive stick or no longer care to row their own gears. This segment also has the most discretionary cash to be buying new cars. It's a not surprising that the manufacturers are going to pander to where the money is.
Although automatics still cost extra that is a moot point when trying to sell the car. Goodluck finding a buyer for a manual without a serious discount.
I must confess that in recent years that unless the car has sporting pretensions like an S2000 or a WRX I would actually prefer to drive with a modern automatic.

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Although automatics still cost extra that is a moot point when trying to sell the car. Goodluck finding a buyer for a manual without a serious discount.

I can't emphasize this enough.  I once owned a Subaru Legacy wagon with a five-speed manual.  When it came time to sell it, I had it listed for a couple months, at FAR below it's Kelly Blue Book value, and I got exactly two serious inquiries: one from Saskatchewan and one from Texas (I'm in Oregon).  I ultimately sold it to the guy in Saskatchewan.

I could have sold it in a week to a local if it had an automatic.  Basically, unless a car is a performance car or a super-small-and-cheap car, manuals are INCREDIBLE liabilities when trying to sell the car.

Offline tpl

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In the Canadian context one could imagine the government(s) cottoning on to this and charging $1000 extra tax on an Automatic.   They already charge $100 on car A/C back from the dyas when it made a noticeable difference to economy. ;D ;D

Offline PJungnitsch

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I must confess that in recent years that unless the car has sporting pretensions like an S2000 or a WRX I would actually prefer to drive with a modern automatic.

I'm the same way. I like modern automatics, especially in the city.

In the country, on deserted roads, a nice shifting manual is an interesting distraction. In the city there's a lot of other stuff I'd rather pay attention too. Let the car handle what gear it needs to be in.

Offline Dexer

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Ya' know, I've never actually owned a car with an automatic transmission...but I would absolutely prefer one in any new car.

The truth is: there is simply no advantage in owning a manual transmission. The theoretical advantages disappeared years ago. Modern automatics are reliable and fuel efficient. The primary advantage of a manual is the snob factor of pretending that you are a member of the automotive cognoscenti and you know better than those peons and their slushboxes.

In case you think this is coming from some kid driving his mom's old Citation, I still own three cars with 4 speed manuals. I've got the first car I ever owned: a 1976 Trans Am with a 455 and a T-10 4 speed. That was the car taught me to drive a manual. I own a slightly hot-rodded '59 Corvette with a Muncie rock crusher attached to a 327. I have my current driver which is an old Triumph with a straight 6 attached to a 4 speed. At one time, I had a nice '77 VW Scirocco with a 4 speed but I sold it. I think that removes me from the "slushbox loving wussy" category :).

If I was to order a new Corvette today, I wouldn't think twice about the transmission. I'd get an automatic.

Why don't I currently own one? Truth is, I really can't afford anything new so I keep wrenching my old cars to keep them roadworthy. But my attachment to the old technology is just a function of my attachment to the old cars. If it wasn't for the fact that my newest car is 34 years old, I'd get an automatic.

Offline aquadorhj

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The truth is: there is simply no advantage in owning a manual transmission.

i respectfully beg to differ.  what about "fun to drive" factor?  i still have an automatic car, i've driven auto for nearly 3 years exclusively.  even though it was fun car to drive, i missed shifting for myself a lot, which was why i bought a manual car.

Quote
The theoretical advantages disappeared years ago. Modern automatics are reliable and fuel efficient. The primary advantage of a manual is the snob factor of pretending that you are a member of the automotive cognoscenti and you know better than those peons and their slushboxes.

why would you think there's "snob factor"?  i do agree that there may be some resentment towards people driving high performance cars with automatic, probably because most, not all but most, of those people enjoy the panache/cachet of badges instead of actual act of driving itself.  i don't have any beefs with people driving automatic performance cars, as long as when i'm ready to buy one, i have a choice to shift for myself.

being able to shift for myself is advantage enough for me, because i like it.  :)

Driving thrills makes my wallet lighter.. and therefore makes me faster because i'm shedding weight... :D

Offline Dexer

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I say "snob factor" because there is a recognition among manual drivers (myself included) that they are driving something that not many people can drive properly today. When I'm going through the tricky shifting routine on my old Triumph, I admit to a sense of superiority because I know that it would be a hard task for the average, modern driver. Likewise, when I press down on the Trans Am clutch, I think that you need legs like a tree trunk because the clutch is so heavy...and I know not many people can stand up to the long term shifting of the TA.

The problem is, shifting today is really little more than an added and unnecessary layer of complication to driving.

The fact that driving a manual is not easy for some people does not make me a better driver and doesn't make my car a better performing car. It just makes me go through more steps to drive. A manual today is like extra chrome...it breaks the driver's basic tenet of form and function. It's more "stuff" that doesn't make the car more functional or the driving more efficient.

Manual transmissions put us in that exclusive club of people who can drive a manual transmission...but that doesn't impress me. I won't lie to you: I hope it impresses some of the girls I know :) but, in my heart, I know that it serves no purpose. I also have to ability to tune the old dual Stromberg carburetors on my Triumph every month. It's a rare skill but I'd still prefer the fuel injection on my 77 year old Mother's Optra (5 years old and running perfectly with no maintenance).

Offline safristi

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Dexer there are snobs that drive knobs,and snobs that drive no-knobs,and non snobs that drive knobs and and non snobs that drive no knobs and knobs that are just knobs and knobs on the dash and knobs on the floor so although i see where yer CLUTCHING at straws let the knob shifters off with a heel and toe or ill take a Knobkierrie to yer foe..................... :skid: :drive:   ever tried a Lotus Elan TRIGGER SWITCH clutch!!!!! ;)
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Offline dougjp

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I say "snob factor" because there is a recognition among manual drivers (myself included) that they are driving something that not many people can drive properly today. When I'm going through the tricky shifting routine on my old Triumph, I admit to a sense of superiority because I know that it would be a hard task for the average, modern driver. Likewise, when I press down on the Trans Am clutch, I think that you need legs like a tree trunk because the clutch is so heavy...and I know not many people can stand up to the long term shifting of the TA.

The problem is, shifting today is really little more than an added and unnecessary layer of complication to driving.

The fact that driving a manual is not easy for some people does not make me a better driver and doesn't make my car a better performing car. It just makes me go through more steps to drive. A manual today is like extra chrome...it breaks the driver's basic tenet of form and function. It's more "stuff" that doesn't make the car more functional or the driving more efficient.

Manual transmissions put us in that exclusive club of people who can drive a manual transmission...but that doesn't impress me. I won't lie to you: I hope it impresses some of the girls I know :) but, in my heart, I know that it serves no purpose. I also have to ability to tune the old dual Stromberg carburetors on my Triumph every month. It's a rare skill but I'd still prefer the fuel injection on my 77 year old Mother's Optra (5 years old and running perfectly with no maintenance).


Its not that I don't understand your argument, you have explained it clearly in numerous ways. Its that I disagree with all variations and reasons of your theme. However all that means is people have different opinions. Mine is;

I could care less about all this exclusive club, impress others, snob, superior et al "obsessions". To me, this is totally irrelevant to the driving experience. All that "stuff" has to do with others and/or thinking about what others may (or may not - most don't care) think, and is simply distraction from the core subject! What about the ACT of DRIVING, first person style?

To me, other than steering and occasional braking, manual shifting IS driving. I've probably owned 40 cars, a few automatics among them however they didn't last long. The last attempt was a DSG because the hope was it would properly emulate a manual. Nice attempt, but nope, despite being better than most autos. tpl explained the problem best in his post; " My humble GTI DSC has a sport mode which tightens up throttle response and alters where the transmission changes gear, it does it rather badly as it happens." The problem shows up all the time in normal day-to-day driving, and its all about choice. The most annoying things are being in the wrong gear mid corner on out, the wrong timing for downshifts, taking anywhere from a half hour to an hour to shift to and from reverse and a forward gear (  :-[  ), the gearbox upsetting the balance of the suspension. The ONLY things I can think of that an auto does (mostly) right are accelerating and achieving better fuel economy in real world situations, as its very difficult for a manual shift driver to create good fuel economy without thinking about it all the time.   

Within 3 months, I talked my wife into upgrading to the Jetta that I bought, freeing me up to buy a manual! All because of the auto (as I still really like the Jetta 2.0T, and she does too). No expense spared to escape!




Offline tpl

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Dexer there are snobs that drive knobs,and snobs that drive no-knobs,and non snobs that drive knobs and and non snobs that drive no knobs and knobs that are just knobs and knobs on the dash and knobs on the floor so although i see where yer CLUTCHING at straws let the knob shifters off with a heel and toe or ill take a Knobkierrie to yer foe..................... :skid: :drive:   ever tried a Lotus Elan TRIGGER SWITCH clutch!!!!! ;)

yes... in London traffic no less.

Offline tpl

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@Dougjp.   You should note my next sentence that it could all be fixed by a software change.  And I hope that someone like APR takes it upon themselves to do so.

Offline Jaeger

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I could care less about all this exclusive club, impress others, snob, superior et al "obsessions". To me, this is totally irrelevant to the driving experience.

Agree completely.

Jaeger

Offline Erik

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I could care less about all this exclusive club, impress others, snob, superior et al "obsessions". To me, this is totally irrelevant to the driving experience. All that "stuff" has to do with others and/or thinking about what others may (or may not - most don't care) think, and is simply distraction from the core subject! What about the ACT of DRIVING, first person style?

To me, other than steering and occasional braking, manual shifting IS driving.




Brilliant!

If there had been such a thing as a full size car with a manual, I would have bought it (yes, I did look at converting my 300C into a manual).

"The car is the closest thing we will ever create to something that is alive." - Sir William Lyons

Mitlov

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I could care less about all this exclusive club, impress others, snob, superior et al "obsessions". To me, this is totally irrelevant to the driving experience. All that "stuff" has to do with others and/or thinking about what others may (or may not - most don't care) think, and is simply distraction from the core subject! What about the ACT of DRIVING, first person style?

To me, other than steering and occasional braking, manual shifting IS driving.

Brilliant!

If there had been such a thing as a full size car with a manual, I would have bought it (yes, I did look at converting my 300C into a manual).



Shame the G8 GXP didn't stick around for long.  I think it had an available 6MT.

How feasible is a transmission swap, given that the 300C's platform-mate the Challenger does offer a manual?

Offline Erik

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I could care less about all this exclusive club, impress others, snob, superior et al "obsessions". To me, this is totally irrelevant to the driving experience. All that "stuff" has to do with others and/or thinking about what others may (or may not - most don't care) think, and is simply distraction from the core subject! What about the ACT of DRIVING, first person style?

To me, other than steering and occasional braking, manual shifting IS driving.

Brilliant!

If there had been such a thing as a full size car with a manual, I would have bought it (yes, I did look at converting my 300C into a manual).



Shame the G8 GXP didn't stick around for long.  I think it had an available 6MT.

How feasible is a transmission swap, given that the 300C's platform-mate the Challenger does offer a manual?

The G8 GXP would have worked just fine. Sadly, they never officially went on sale up here, so the ones that have found their way up to the great white north are being sold at an impressive premium.

Mechanically, there is not much to it. It has been done before. Electronics and programming is the big issue. Also, the stouter Challenger rear end is needed, with it's much shorter gears. The programming has apparently been sorted out. Just a matter of throwing cash at it now. Not something I am thinking of now, but once the warranty runs out... :)