Topic: Motor Trend Car of the Year Is.....

[rrocket]

Why?  Would Battlestar Galactica cure the critics of their torque addiction?   

You really need to sell your RX-8 before you make jokes like that

Heck, why do you think I made the joke!

Oh...BTW...you wouldn't want to buy it would you?   

Someone is itching for a 5.0.........

[TopGun]

All in all, my point is that there is no fundamental difference between the two systems.  If anything, the Toyota system is more elegant since it does not use clutches.

Ok, so I see you're determined to not read the article that I've posted TWICE that shows there is a huge fundamental difference.  You're also determined that a system that doesn't use clutches is more efficient...which I might agree with unless a clutch is put into a system for the reason of efficiency.

Fundamental difference - Toyota system connects such that the engine must turn on or the smaller motor/generator will start spinning too fast. ” – TopGun

How fast is too fast? If necessary, you can put a clutch between the sun gear and the smaller motor/generator...... - G35X

The article states that there is a speed at which the efficiency drops...which is why the Volt is designed the way that it was.  So now you want to put a clutch into the system to make it more efficient.  Man...my head hurts...

[TopGun]

Someone is itching for a 5.0.........

4.6 is good enough for me!   

[rrocket]

Someone is itching for a 5.0.........

4.6 is good enough for me!   

I think you should treat yourself to a 5.4....

[Erik]

No hating. From where I sit, the Leaf is a good 2nd or third car, or maybe a toy for a greenie. Not an only car by any stretch of the imagination. A real car I could do all of of my driving with, regardless where I need to go. That is NOT the Leaf. It just becomes an expensive toy then. Same answer if it were the EV1.

I guess hatin' is not liking a car that you like.

The award isn't about how the car will be used, or your narrow definition of a car.  I mean..we could say that about a 2 seat sports coupe..that's it's not a primary car..or it's a toy for a gear head.

It's about the most significant new car introduction.  And as it sits, in my mind, only 2 cars fit the bill this year.  The Volt and the Leaf.

And the PT Cruiser was a joke....should have been Insight or Prius EASILY that year.

Since when is the ability to hop into a car, and car, and drive it anywhere I wanted to a "narrow definition"? I would say that defines what the modern automobile is. With any two seat sports coupe, I can drive from here to Kitchener or Montreal or Florida or Vancouver, without any concerns of range. There are filling stations available to quickly and conveniently fill it up everywhere along the way. Certainly NOT the case with the Leaf. I couldn't even make it to Buffalo. Actually, the Leaf is the ONLY mass produced vehicle on sale today that fails that test. So your travel is always tied to your home and your quick charger. Isn't it like 16 hours to recharge it off a regular 110 volt outlet? So how many months would the drive to Florida take?

[rrocket]

Again....this isn't the "Utilitarian Car of the Year" award.  It's for a significant car introduction.  And if you're too obtuse to grasp that the LEAF is significant, nothing I can say will help.

We'll just disagree I suppose.  Either way, I feel the LEAF and Volt are the 2 most significant new cars this year, for obvious reasons.   (My other significant cars are: Fiesta, Regal, Cruze, Sonata, CR-Z and Jetta)

[Mitlov]

Again....this isn't the "Utilitarian Car of the Year" award.  It's for a significant car introduction.  And if you're too obtuse to grasp that the LEAF is significant, nothing I can say will help.

We'll just disagree I suppose.  Either way, I feel the LEAF and Volt are the 2 most significant new cars this year, for obvious reasons.   (My other significant cars are: Fiesta, Regal, Cruze, Sonata, CR-Z and Jetta)

Agree that the race should be between the Leaf and the Volt this year.  I'd go with the Volt, but either makes sense to me.  And the Cruze, Fiesta, and Sonata are all very solid runner-up material.  But...

What's significant about the MkVI Jetta?!  It's just a nice-looking sedan with everything else that made the Jetta desirable (nice interior, good handling, good steering feel) taken away.

And you think the CR-Z is COTY material?  Seriously?  I'm certainly no Honda hater--look at my frickin' driveway--but the CR-Z is a swing and a miss if I've ever seen one.  It's a mild hybrid (i.e., not very innovative) "sporty hatchback" that's not very fuel efficient, not very sporty, not very practical, and not even that cheap.

And the Regal?  It's not a bad car at all, mind you, but it's basically GM's take on the 2004 TSX.  We've been here before.

[tpl]

I agree with Mitlov.  The Volt is significant.

If the Leaf was powered by a new battery technology, really new, like maybe.... using old fuel rods from a nuke power plant then it would be significant. As is, it is just a well executed Golf cart.

[G35X]

TopGun,
The clutch between the sun gear and the motor/generator I mentioned is to keep the rotor from disintegrating or freezing and it has nothing to do with efficiency.  Anyway, I do not think Toyota will ever need to put a clutch there.  The efficiency the MT article mentioned, I think, is more to do with electric side of the system, i.e. higher rpm means higher drive frequency and higher frequency means higher hysteresis loss and eddy current loss rather than mechanical side such as bearing loss and wind resistance.

Putting aside the question of efficiency of the serial drive system, I think there is not much difference in efficiency between the Volt system and the Prius system once ICE and wheels are rigidly connected with gears.

I have been on a Volt forum in the past almost three years and one of the first to find the GM patent application.  Many members, myself included, were disappointed to find the Volt used a Prius-like planetary gear setup, but understood the reason why GM had to use mechanical linkage between ICE and wheels to improve efficiency.

I hope your headache is gone now. Or, is planetary gear system too difficult for you to understand?

[Mitlov]

Putting aside the question of efficiency of the serial drive system, I think there is not much difference in efficiency between the Volt system and the Prius system once ICE and wheels are rigidly connected with gears.

I actually think the Prius is more fuel-efficient once both are using their gas engines.  HOWEVER, that occurs down the block from your house in a Prius, and a few towns over with the Volt, so it's not an apples-to-apples comparison.

[rrocket]

Again....this isn't the "Utilitarian Car of the Year" award.  It's for a significant car introduction.  And if you're too obtuse to grasp that the LEAF is significant, nothing I can say will help.

We'll just disagree I suppose.  Either way, I feel the LEAF and Volt are the 2 most significant new cars this year, for obvious reasons.   (My other significant cars are: Fiesta, Regal, Cruze, Sonata, CR-Z and Jetta)

Agree that the race should be between the Leaf and the Volt this year.  I'd go with the Volt, but either makes sense to me.  And the Cruze, Fiesta, and Sonata are all very solid runner-up material.  But...

What's significant about the MkVI Jetta?!  It's just a nice-looking sedan with everything else that made the Jetta desirable (nice interior, good handling, good steering feel) taken away.

And you think the CR-Z is COTY material?  Seriously?  I'm certainly no Honda hater--look at my frickin' driveway--but the CR-Z is a swing and a miss if I've ever seen one.  It's a mild hybrid (i.e., not very innovative) "sporty hatchback" that's not very fuel efficient, not very sporty, not very practical, and not even that cheap.

And the Regal?  It's not a bad car at all, mind you, but it's basically GM's take on the 2004 TSX.  We've been here before.

It's doesn't have to be a home run, knock it out of the park car to qualify as significant.  I mean...we're talking about cars being entered into the competition...no winner.  After reviewing my choices and the choices they chose....they picked all the same cars I did being either a "contestant" or a "finalist".  So my choices aren't out to lunch at all, and they agree with me.

The Jetta is significant because it's a complete re-design on VWs most popular platforms.  Plus the new lower entry price makes it compelling enough to include as a significant new model.

The CR-Z is significant because it's the promise of "sporty" and "hybrid" in one package.  It didn't meet those goals, but still a significant introduction.

The Regal because if offered the promise, seriously, for the first time for a domestic car to genuinely take on the Euro and Japanese imports in the entry-level luxury category.

Any car that's garnered as much press as all of these is significant.  And all of the cars I've chose garnered tons of media coverage even before they were offered for sale here.  Again...just because it's a significant new car doesn't mean it's going to win...and often doesn't even mean it's best in class.

[Serniter]

If the Leaf was powered by a new battery technology, really new, like maybe.... using old fuel rods from a nuke power plant then it would be significant. As is, it is just a well executed Golf cart.

Well executed Golf carts have never been used widely as cars before.  The Leaf offers the first such possibility.  What if in a few decades all that remain on the road are electric cars, would we have missed a chance to crown the Leaf appropriately?

[TopGun]

I hope your headache is gone now. Or, is planetary gear system too difficult for you to understand?

Oh I'm much better now, thank-you.  Ya, I'm a little slow...your posts remind me of a unique planet that rotates sideways.   

[Mitlov]

If the Leaf was powered by a new battery technology, really new, like maybe.... using old fuel rods from a nuke power plant then it would be significant. As is, it is just a well executed Golf cart.

Well executed Golf carts have never been used widely as cars before.  The Leaf offers the first such possibility.  What if in a few decades all that remain on the road are electric cars, would we have missed a chance to crown the Leaf appropriately?

Somebody get this man to the Caribbean.  Now!

The Leaf offers better safety, longer range, and all-weather capability, but there certainly are plenty of tropical places where golf carts, not gas-powered cars, rule the road.

[Erik]

Again....this isn't the "Utilitarian Car of the Year" award.  It's for a significant car introduction.  And if you're too obtuse to grasp that the LEAF is significant, nothing I can say will help.

We'll just disagree I suppose.  Either way, I feel the LEAF and Volt are the 2 most significant new cars this year, for obvious reasons.   (My other significant cars are: Fiesta, Regal, Cruze, Sonata, CR-Z and Jetta)

So I am too dense to understand it because I don't agree?

Utility is the ultimate reason for all cars. Regardless of how much fun they are or how much we may love them, the ultimate reason for them is to transport us from where we are to where we want to go. A good vehicle will ask as little of us as possible in doing so. From where I stand, the Leaf fails in this basic task. I have to modify my behaviour to accommodate its very limited range.

From all I can see, it is a refined, updated EV1. Nothing earth changing there.

[tpl]

If the Leaf was powered by a new battery technology, really new, like maybe.... using old fuel rods from a nuke power plant then it would be significant. As is, it is just a well executed Golf cart.

Well executed Golf carts have never been used widely as cars before.  The Leaf offers the first such possibility.  What if in a few decades all that remain on the road are electric cars, would we have missed a chance to crown the Leaf appropriately?

Somebody get this man to the Caribbean.  Now!

The Leaf offers better safety, longer range, and all-weather capability, but there certainly are plenty of tropical places where golf carts, not gas-powered cars, rule the road.

Exactly. WELL EXECUTED golf cart.    What it does NOT offer and probably never will is the convenience of a recharge in 5 minutes after 500 Km of driving.  North America is a big place.  I wasn't totally joking about a battery made of spent reactor fuel rods.
Many posters and other commentators have said that the average commute is well within the Leaf's range on a charge... but that suggests that Mr and Mrs Average motorist would need another car as well as the Leaf.  Is electric power worth having yet another car in the driveway...I am quite sure that Insurance won't be much cheaper for a Leaf and that the various governments will not reduce their licence fees ( even though some of them say they will reduce sales tax) and for that matter... how long before the electric car charger has a "smart meter" and charges a gasoline equivalent tax on the kWh used for the electric... in Ontario, about a week I'd guess.

[safristi]

...does the LEAF have a BLOWER......................


.....then IT would CLEAN UP...............

[inco]

Exactly. WELL EXECUTED golf cart.    What it does NOT offer and probably never will is the convenience of a recharge in 5 minutes after 500 Km of driving.  North America is a big place.  I wasn't totally joking about a battery made of spent reactor fuel rods.
Many posters and other commentators have said that the average commute is well within the Leaf's range on a charge... but that suggests that Mr and Mrs Average motorist would need another car as well as the Leaf.  Is electric power worth having yet another car in the driveway...I am quite sure that Insurance won't be much cheaper for a Leaf and that the various governments will not reduce their licence fees ( even though some of them say they will reduce sales tax) and for that matter... how long before the electric car charger has a "smart meter" and charges a gasoline equivalent tax on the kWh used for the electric... in Ontario, about a week I'd guess.

The real scary thing here is that I think you are right. What the government loses on fuel taxes will be more than made up for with higher hydro rates. And today we hear those will be up 45% in five years! Yikes. And smart meters on the cars - that too is a given.Sigh 

[Erik]

Exactly. WELL EXECUTED golf cart.    What it does NOT offer and probably never will is the convenience of a recharge in 5 minutes after 500 Km of driving.  North America is a big place.  I wasn't totally joking about a battery made of spent reactor fuel rods.
Many posters and other commentators have said that the average commute is well within the Leaf's range on a charge... but that suggests that Mr and Mrs Average motorist would need another car as well as the Leaf.  Is electric power worth having yet another car in the driveway...I am quite sure that Insurance won't be much cheaper for a Leaf and that the various governments will not reduce their licence fees ( even though some of them say they will reduce sales tax) and for that matter... how long before the electric car charger has a "smart meter" and charges a gasoline equivalent tax on the kWh used for the electric... in Ontario, about a week I'd guess.

The real scary thing here is that I think you are right. What the government loses on fuel taxes will be more than made up for with higher hydro rates. And today we hear those will be up 45% in five years! Yikes. And smart meters on the cars - that too is a given.Sigh 

Actually, smart meters and time of use electricity pricing will help with electric cars. The cheapest rate is overnight, so the time you will be plugging your car in every day is when the price is the lowest.

[Erik]

If the Leaf was powered by a new battery technology, really new, like maybe.... using old fuel rods from a nuke power plant then it would be significant. As is, it is just a well executed Golf cart.

Well executed Golf carts have never been used widely as cars before.  The Leaf offers the first such possibility.  What if in a few decades all that remain on the road are electric cars, would we have missed a chance to crown the Leaf appropriately?

Somebody get this man to the Caribbean.  Now!

The Leaf offers better safety, longer range, and all-weather capability, but there certainly are plenty of tropical places where golf carts, not gas-powered cars, rule the road.

Exactly. WELL EXECUTED golf cart.    What it does NOT offer and probably never will is the convenience of a recharge in 5 minutes after 500 Km of driving.  North America is a big place.  I wasn't totally joking about a battery made of spent reactor fuel rods.
Many posters and other commentators have said that the average commute is well within the Leaf's range on a charge... but that suggests that Mr and Mrs Average motorist would need another car as well as the Leaf.  Is electric power worth having yet another car in the driveway...I am quite sure that Insurance won't be much cheaper for a Leaf and that the various governments will not reduce their licence fees ( even though some of them say they will reduce sales tax) and for that matter... how long before the electric car charger has a "smart meter" and charges a gasoline equivalent tax on the kWh used for the electric... in Ontario, about a week I'd guess.

Exactly.
The Leaf will be a second or third car to most people who buy one. Makes it not that cheap an alternative after all.