Topic: Motor Trend Car of the Year Is.....

[Erik]

It's the first mass market, affordable, pure electric car available for sale to everyone in the USA.

That's a significant new car introduction.

And you'll note that MOST of the cars on the COTY list have no significant tech breakthrough (or breakthrough in real terms), yet are very significant for other reasons.

Stop hatin'.....

No hating. From where I sit, the Leaf is a good 2nd or third car, or maybe a toy for a greenie. Not an only car by any stretch of the imagination. A real car I could do all of of my driving with, regardless where I need to go. That is NOT the Leaf. It just becomes an expensive toy then. Same answer if it were the EV1.

I guess hatin' is not liking a car that you like.

[Erik]

I think the Volt deserves the COTY award because it is the first car that brought the plug-in hybrid concept to reality.

However, is the Volt system better than Toyota’s synergy system?  I do not think so. They are essentially same:

Both systems have three power sources; an ICE and two motors, each of which theoretically can propel the vehicle alone or any combination thereof mechanically. Their differences are:
1)Power of ICE… 85HP (Volt) vs. 98 (Prius)
2)Power of main electric motor… 149HP (Volt) vs. 84HP (Prius)
3)Energy capacity of battery… 16kWh (Volt) vs. 1.3kWh (Prius)   

The Volt is driven mostly by the motor, while the Prius uses the ICE most of the time with assistance by the motor for a short period of time (even shorter time for battery-only drive).  If you increase the energy capacity of Prius’ battery and make the main motor more powerful, you can have longer battery-only drive range and faster speed.  On the other hand, if you reduce the battery capacity of the Volt, you have shorter battery-only drive range but much lighter vehicle, thereby requiring less powerful main motor.  All in all, if both cars have the same battery capacity and the same ICE and motor power, their performance is just about same.

Are you kidding???


And if my grandmother had wheels she'd be a wagon.

You CANNOT just increase the battery capacity of the Prius and turn it into a Volt. Toyota kinda/sorta tried it and came up with a pretty weak effort at a plug in hybrid. They CAN'T do it, that is, they can't make the Prius operate 40 miles on battery, so it is a VASTLY different automobile.

[TopGun]

....they can't make the Prius operate 40 miles on battery, so it is a VASTLY different automobile.

Agreed.  I found G35's explanation hard to follow, and quite frankly, contradictory to MotorTrend's elegant description of how it works (which I'd posted previous to his explanation).

Here's my attempt to summarize Frank Markus' points:

• Prius and Volt drive trains similar, but connected together differently.
• Fundamental difference - Toyota system connects such that the engine must turn on or the smaller motor/generator will start spinning too fast.
• Volt has a mechanical advantage over the Prius when starting off (149 hp vs 80 hp)
• At about 70 mph, the Chevy’s motor is starting to spin too fast to be efficient, so the ring gear unlocks from the case and locks to the smaller motor/generator. Now both e-motors spin, propelling the Volt to 101 mph turning at reasonable rpm in electric mode.
• Chevrolet’s approach permits full EV capability over 30-40 real-world miles—something Toyota will never be able to claim with its current Hybrid Synergy Drive system.

December's Motor Trend has lots of comparisons to the Prius and Prius Plug-In...no contest.

http://www.motortrend.com/features/editorial/1010_unbolting_the_chevy_volt_to_see_how_it_ticks/index.html

[Mitlov]

Congrats to GM!  However, lets hope it isn't one of Motor Trends 'oops' in hindsight.  look at thier list, there are a few questionable winners there (I highlighted them)

2011 Chevrolet Volt
2010 Ford Fusion
2009 Nissan GT-R
2008 Cadillac CTS
2007 Toyota Camry
2006 Honda Civic
2005 Chrysler 300
2004 Toyota Prius
2003 Infiniti G35
2002 Ford Thunderbird
2001 Chrysler PT Cruiser
2000 Lincoln LS
1999 Chrysler 300M
1998 Chevrolet Corvette
1997 Chevrolet Malibu 
1996 Dodge Caravan
1995 Chrysler Cirrus
1994 Ford Mustang
1993 Ford Probe GT
1992 Cadillac Seville Touring Sedan
1991 Chevrolet Caprice Classic LTZ
1990 Lincoln Town Car
1989 Ford Thunderbird SC
1988 Pontiac Grand Prix
1987 Ford Thunderbird Turbo Coupe
1986 Ford Taurus LX
1985 Volkswagen GTI
1984 Chevrolet Corvette
1983 AMC / Renault Alliance
1982 Chevrolet Camaro Z28
1981 Chrysler K Cars, Dodge Aries and Plymouth Reliant
1980 Chevrolet Citation
1979 Buick Riviera S
1978 Chrysler, Dodge Omni and Plymouth Horizon
1977 Chevrolet Caprice
1976 Chrysler, Dodge Aspen and Plymouth Volare
1975 Chevrolet Monza 2+2
1974 Ford Mustang II
1973 Chevrolet Monte Carlo
1972 Citroën SM (an imported vehicle that was selected overall "Car of the Year")
1971 Chevrolet Vega
1970 Ford Torino
1969 Plymouth Road Runner
1968 Pontiac GTO
1967 Mercury Cougar
1966 Oldsmobile Toronado

According to your highlighting job, about 90% of Motor Trend COTYs aren't questionable.

And I agree with this one.  I'd file it away with the 90% of choices that are good choices, not the 10% that are bad.  It's the first implementation of what's essentially a diesel-electric locomotive's drivetrain (with a gas generator instead of a diesel generator) in a car.  It's a bit of a landmark in how people think about powertrains for cars, regardless of whether a particular consumer would rather have this, a Golf TDI, a Fiesta, or a Prius.

[Mike]

According to your highlighting job, about 90% of Motor Trend COTYs aren't questionable.

And I agree with this one.  I'd file it away with the 90% of choices that are good choices, not the 10% that are bad.  It's the first implementation of what's essentially a diesel-electric locomotive's drivetrain (with a gas generator instead of a diesel generator) in a car.  It's a bit of a landmark in how people think about powertrains for cars, regardless of whether a particular consumer would rather have this, a Golf TDI, a Fiesta, or a Prius.

lol, yeah , I just went with the overly questionable ones.  some others have since been pointed out.

[Mitlov]

According to your highlighting job, about 90% of Motor Trend COTYs aren't questionable.

And I agree with this one.  I'd file it away with the 90% of choices that are good choices, not the 10% that are bad.  It's the first implementation of what's essentially a diesel-electric locomotive's drivetrain (with a gas generator instead of a diesel generator) in a car.  It's a bit of a landmark in how people think about powertrains for cars, regardless of whether a particular consumer would rather have this, a Golf TDI, a Fiesta, or a Prius.

lol, yeah , I just went with the overly questionable ones.  some others have since been pointed out.

On the other hand, the PT Cruiser actually did deserve it.  It got middle America excited about a compact hatchback...when's the last time that happened?

But let's look at the last ten years.  Every year except 2002, there's a real solid reason why they picked it.  Though for every year (except perhaps the Fusion), there are haters who do what haters do best--hate.  Few of these cars are perfect in every way, but they all were chosen for a good reason (save the Thunderbird).

2011 Chevrolet Volt
2010 Ford Fusion
2009 Nissan GT-R
2008 Cadillac CTS
2007 Toyota Camry
2006 Honda Civic
2005 Chrysler 300
2004 Toyota Prius
2003 Infiniti G35
2002 Ford Thunderbird

Volt--first implementation of the diesel-electric locomotive concept (engine is an electric generator, not the primary means of propelling the wheels) in a car.  Critics say it's too expensive and that the Prius is better overall, etc.

Fusion--Incredibly well-made midsize sedan; lineup includes a remarkably fuel-efficient hybrid for people who don't want the sci-fi look of a Prius/Insight/etc.  Critics...does this car have critics?

GT-R--Godzilla.  Giant-killer.  Amazing performance-to-price ratio.  Amazing technology showcase.  Critics talk about the relative lack of driver involvement and the warranty/transmission woes.

CTS--Best Caddy in 40 years, and a true competitor to the best luxury sedans from Japan and Germany.  Amazing to look at, too.  Critics say it's too heavy.

Camry--A well-developed range from the surprisingly-good-to-drive SE (from what I've heard) to the remarkably-fuel-efficient Hybrid.  Critics say it runs on baby blood.

Civic--Superb compact with everything from good run-of-the-mill models to a hybrid (that was better than the Insight that replaced it) to the remarkably-awesome Si.  Critics don't watch Battlestar Galactica enough.

Chrysler 300--You can't get road presence like this without breaking six figures.  And it actually handled and rode pretty well too, at least for a large sedan.  Did I mention it has a Hemi?  Critics whine about gangsta image and then get a cap in their ass.

Prius--A game-changer by any account.  Critics whine about how it's not good at things it wasn't meant to do (long highway commutes, sporty driving).

G35--See comment about the CTS, only apply it to the Infiniti.  Only difference is that critics whine about the plastics (at least back in 2003), not the weight.

Thunderbird--I've never understood why this won an award.

[Leviathan]

Heh, and the reason why no paying customer has had their Volt delivered yet

Chevrolet Volts await EPA label for shipment

DETROIT -- Tom Stephens, General Motors Co.'s global product chief, said today that Chevrolet will begin shipping Volt plug-in hybrid sedans to dealers as soon as the EPA issues a mileage label for the vehicle.

The EPA label certifying the Volt's mileage should come “any day,” he said. The label is necessary to sell the car.

[TopGun]

Civic--Superb compact with everything from good run-of-the-mill models to a hybrid (that was better than the Insight that replaced it) to the remarkably-awesome Si.  Critics don't watch Battlestar Galactica enough.

Why?  Would Battlestar Galactica cure the critics of their torque addiction?   

[Mitlov]

Civic--Superb compact with everything from good run-of-the-mill models to a hybrid (that was better than the Insight that replaced it) to the remarkably-awesome Si.  Critics don't watch Battlestar Galactica enough.

Why?  Would Battlestar Galactica cure the critics of their torque addiction?   

You really need to sell your RX-8 before you make jokes like that

[G35X]

“Can you go 40-80kms straight (per charge) without using any gas in a Prius? ” – Leviathan

I am comparing two mechanical systems, not current products. If you put a 16kWh battery in a Prius and make it plug-in, certainly it can go 40-80kms on charged energy only.

“You CANNOT just increase the battery capacity of the Prius and turn it into a Volt. Toyota kinda/sorta tried it and came up with a pretty weak effort at a plug in hybrid. They CAN'T do it, that is, they can't make the Prius operate 40 miles on battery, so it is a VASTLY different automobile. ” – Erik

Again, if the Prius cannot go 40 miles on battery because of much smaller battery, that’s due to the difference in design philosophy and cost/performance consideration, not because of difference in mechanical system.

“Fundamental difference - Toyota system connects such that the engine must turn on or the smaller motor/generator will start spinning too fast. ” – TopGun

How fast is too fast? If necessary, you can put a clutch between the sun gear and the smaller motor/generator.  I think you can spin the motor/generator up to 15-20,000rpm before the embedded magnets start flying out.  It’s the matter of cost rather than basic design.

“Volt has a mechanical advantage over the Prius when starting off (149 hp vs. 80 hp) “ – TopGun

Again, you are comparing the current models, not the two systems.

“At about 70 mph, the Chevy’s motor is starting to spin too fast to be efficient, so the ring gear unlocks from the case and locks to the smaller motor/generator. Now both e-motors spin, propelling the Volt to 101 mph turning at reasonable rpm in electric mode. ” – TopGun

GM never said the speed threshold is 70mph.  That 70mph thing was first reported by MotorTrend when they tested their demonstrator and since then has been treated as GM’s design. You can free the ring gear and close the motor/generator clutch at much slower speed if you want (especially when you need more than 110kW for quick passing going uphill). The fact is mechanical linkage is more efficient than serial ICE>generator>electric drive.  If you drive straight from Winnipeg to Calgary with little expectation of energy recovery, you would choose mechanical linkage over electrical.

Soon GM will have to weigh between EV range and cost (and weight) and come up with a lower-cost version with, say, 8kWh battery, especially when Toyota makes the plug-in Prius available to the public (2012?). Better yet, as GM gains confidence in Li-ion battery’s life expectancy (For the moment GM has to baby it to give an 8-year warranty.), it can reduce the capacity of the battery pack and employ deeper charge/discharge scheme to reduce cost and weight.  North Americans are getting fatter and fatter.

All in all, my point is that there is no fundamental difference between the two systems.  If anything, the Toyota system is more elegant since it does not use clutches.

[rrocket]

No hating. From where I sit, the Leaf is a good 2nd or third car, or maybe a toy for a greenie. Not an only car by any stretch of the imagination. A real car I could do all of of my driving with, regardless where I need to go. That is NOT the Leaf. It just becomes an expensive toy then. Same answer if it were the EV1.

I guess hatin' is not liking a car that you like.

The award isn't about how the car will be used, or your narrow definition of a car.  I mean..we could say that about a 2 seat sports coupe..that's it's not a primary car..or it's a toy for a gear head.

It's about the most significant new car introduction.  And as it sits, in my mind, only 2 cars fit the bill this year.  The Volt and the Leaf.

And the PT Cruiser was a joke....should have been Insight or Prius EASILY that year.

[Mitlov]

It's about the most significant new car introduction.  And as it sits, in my mind, only 2 cars fit the bill this year.  The Volt and the Leaf.

And the PT Cruiser was a joke....should have been Insight or Prius EASILY that year.

The Insight actually debuted for model year 2000, I think, so it wouldn't have been in the running against the 2001 PT Cruiser.  As to the Prius, good point, though hindsight is 20/20, and I don't think a lot of people appreciated in 2001 how important hybrids would be come to the market.  And the PT Cruiser was a cultural phenomenon, at least down here...middle Americans were proud to own a C-segment hatch, were customizing it, etc.  Remarkable.  And it was everywhere. 

As for not making the first-gen Prius COTY, Motor Trend certainly made up for it by making the second-gen Prius the 2004 COTY. 

EDIT:  Tracked down the Motor Trend 2001 COTY award for their reasoning:

They say there's no such thing as something new. They say inexpensive cars are boring to look at, and that practical ones are equally boring to drive. They say fun cars need to be expensive (although that's no guarantee an expensive ride is any fun). They say this, they say that. One thing is obvious to us: "They" have never seen, driven, or enjoyed Chrysler's amazing '01 PT Cruiser. Consider the just-discussed criteria employed in choosing Motor Trend's Car of the Year-particularly such factors as Design, Daily Liveability, Value, Special Features, and, of course, the Fun Factor-and it's easy to understand how and why the PT Cruiser captured the gold in this year's huge 21-car competition. And it captured our automotive-enthusiast hearts, as well.
...
One of the Cruiser's most outstanding, yet somewhat intangible, characteristics is its absolutely amazing public appeal. It's somehow able to burst through common buyer demographics and stereotypes, instantly becoming everybody's pal. Eighty-year-olds love it, and so do teenagers. Guys on Harleys, women driving sport/utilities, family types, Gen-Xers and Gen-Yers-the PT always rates a smile, a "thumbs up," or some other positive reaction. We had the Patriot Blue Limited Edition shown in these photographs parked at a restaurant one evening, and an attractive woman in her early 30s walked outside-and hugged it.
...
People's biggest challenge with the PT is trying to categorize it. Is it a heritage-design inspired economy car? Ultra-cool, compact wagon? High-value family hauler? Affordable hot rod? Call Chrysler's innovatively conceived, smashingly styled, intelligently packaged, inexpensive, fun-to-drive, ultra-practical, positively segment-busting PT Cruiser anything you want: We call it Motor Trend's 2001 Car of the Year.

http://www.motortrend.com/oftheyear/car/112_0101coy/index.html

You don't have to agree, but I think their reasoning is sound (particularly without the hindsight that Chrysler would then let the car languish for a frickin' decade without updating or improving it).

[Bubba]

And the PT Cruiser was a joke....should have been Insight or Prius EASILY that year.

Nice.    This coming from a guy that thinks "alot" is a word.

[Mitlov]

And the PT Cruiser was a joke....should have been Insight or Prius EASILY that year.

Nice.    This coming from a guy that thinks "alot" is a word.

Mandatory posting of Hyperbole and a Half:

http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2010/04/alot-is-better-than-you-at-everything.html

[rrocket]

And the PT Cruiser was a joke....should have been Insight or Prius EASILY that year.

Nice.    This coming from a guy that thinks "alot" is a word.

Uh oh....another one??  Hmmmm...may I have your permission to use "WTF" and "OMG" and other such words??  I use ALOT of those types of "words"...

http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Grammar_Nazi

[Bubba]

[h oh....another one??  Hmmmm...may I have your permission to use "WTF" and "OMG" and other such words??  I use ALOT of those types of "words"...

http://encyclopediadramatica.com/Grammar_Nazi

Grow up.

[rrocket]

You'll get over it...(or yourself).

[Mike]

It's about the most significant new car introduction.  And as it sits, in my mind, only 2 cars fit the bill this year.  The Volt and the Leaf.

And the PT Cruiser was a joke....should have been Insight or Prius EASILY that year.

The Insight actually debuted for model year 2000, I think, so it wouldn't have been in the running against the 2001 PT Cruiser.  As to the Prius, good point, though hindsight is 20/20, and I don't think a lot of people appreciated in 2001 how important hybrids would be come to the market.  And the PT Cruiser was a cultural phenomenon, at least down here...middle Americans were proud to own a C-segment hatch, were customizing it, etc.  Remarkable.  And it was everywhere. 

As for not making the first-gen Prius COTY, Motor Trend certainly made up for it by making the second-gen Prius the 2004 COTY. 

EDIT:  Tracked down the Motor Trend 2001 COTY award for their reasoning:

They say there's no such thing as something new. They say inexpensive cars are boring to look at, and that practical ones are equally boring to drive. They say fun cars need to be expensive (although that's no guarantee an expensive ride is any fun). They say this, they say that. One thing is obvious to us: "They" have never seen, driven, or enjoyed Chrysler's amazing '01 PT Cruiser. Consider the just-discussed criteria employed in choosing Motor Trend's Car of the Year-particularly such factors as Design, Daily Liveability, Value, Special Features, and, of course, the Fun Factor-and it's easy to understand how and why the PT Cruiser captured the gold in this year's huge 21-car competition. And it captured our automotive-enthusiast hearts, as well.
...
One of the Cruiser's most outstanding, yet somewhat intangible, characteristics is its absolutely amazing public appeal. It's somehow able to burst through common buyer demographics and stereotypes, instantly becoming everybody's pal. Eighty-year-olds love it, and so do teenagers. Guys on Harleys, women driving sport/utilities, family types, Gen-Xers and Gen-Yers-the PT always rates a smile, a "thumbs up," or some other positive reaction. We had the Patriot Blue Limited Edition shown in these photographs parked at a restaurant one evening, and an attractive woman in her early 30s walked outside-and hugged it.
...
People's biggest challenge with the PT is trying to categorize it. Is it a heritage-design inspired economy car? Ultra-cool, compact wagon? High-value family hauler? Affordable hot rod? Call Chrysler's innovatively conceived, smashingly styled, intelligently packaged, inexpensive, fun-to-drive, ultra-practical, positively segment-busting PT Cruiser anything you want: We call it Motor Trend's 2001 Car of the Year.

http://www.motortrend.com/oftheyear/car/112_0101coy/index.html

You don't have to agree, but I think their reasoning is sound (particularly without the hindsight that Chrysler would then let the car languish for a frickin' decade without updating or improving it).

Yeah, I remember when these first came out.  I was working at a rental car company in Windsor and the owner had a good relationship with Chrysler Canada.  He was allowed to buy 50 of the PT Cruiser Limited models.  We rented them for 3 months at ridiculous premium car charges without issues.  Then, the owner turned around and sold them all for full new car retail price due to the demand on them.

But wait, the story gets better.  He then bought 25 more, we rented them for 6 months.   When he was ready to sell them he couldn't even give them away at the auctions.  the novelty had already worn out.

[Mitlov]

Yeah, I remember when these first came out.  I was working at a rental car company in Windsor and the owner had a good relationship with Chrysler Canada.  He was allowed to buy 50 of the PT Cruiser Limited models.  We rented them for 3 months at ridiculous premium car charges without issues.  Then, the owner turned around and sold them all for full new car retail price due to the demand on them.

But wait, the story gets better.  He then bought 25 more, we rented them for 6 months.   When he was ready to sell them he couldn't even give them away at the auctions.  the novelty had already worn out.

I'd say the love affair lasted for a few years, not a few months, in the States...but this is certainly a difference between the US and Canadian markets.

[TopGun]

Why?  Would Battlestar Galactica cure the critics of their torque addiction?   

You really need to sell your RX-8 before you make jokes like that

Heck, why do you think I made the joke!

Oh...BTW...you wouldn't want to buy it would you?