Topic: First Drive: 2011 Hyundai Sonata Hybrid

[Dante]

SONATA GLS BEATS HYBRID IN MPGs
....I decided to test it against the base Sonata GLS, without any hybrid technology. I got one of my fellow jurors to drive the hybrid while I drove the base car, and we took them both out on a 15-mile loop, with me following him, so that we drove the same roads at the same speeds. Get this, the hybrid averaged 33.3 miles per gallon, while the base car got 37.2 mpg, nearly 4 miles to the gallon better. I think Hyundai has got some work to do on its hybrid, and this also shows just how good the base car is.

That is like the time that Top Gear took an M3 (M5? I am not going to look it up, but I recall watching the episode), and an economy car around their test track. The economy car was in the lead, and was doing what they could to make the best time possible. The BMW followed the economy car.

Final result - the BMW had far, far better gas milage than the economy car. Why? Because the economy car was being pushed hard, which for a BMW M series, is like idling along a straight street. In the end, it was interesting, but pointless.

As the comparison above may have been - no doubt the route kept the hybrid's gas engine running steady, maybe even being pushed, while the 2.4L engine was loafing along.

Which only goes to prove that you should understand how and where you will be driving a car before deciding which type of car will word best for you. Beyond that, only good for enterainment value.....

The small car was actually a Prius IIRC.

[Dante]

Good gawd, is this not about the 100th thread on the Sonata???

Well there's three distinct versions of the Sonata... 2.4L, turbo and hybrid. Plus, there's been more than one articles for some of those versions.

If you don't like it, just skip any thread with the word 'Sonata' in its title and stop complaining.

Thought that might prompt a response from you.   
This is what I was getting at.  Below are threads about the 2011 Sonata, there's probably more than this, but just looked at ones with posts <120 days:

2011 Hyundai Sonata
http://www.canadiandriver.com/forum/index.php/topic,71105.0.html

2011 Hyundai Sonata Hybrid  (note not this thread)
http://www.canadiandriver.com/forum/index.php/topic,71805.0.html

Test Drive: 2011 Hyundai Sonata GLS
http://www.canadiandriver.com/forum/index.php/topic,71532.0.html

First Drive: 2011 Hyundai Sonata 2.0T
http://www.canadiandriver.com/forum/index.php/topic,71820.0.html

Test Drive: 2011 Hyundai Sonata GL
http://www.canadiandriver.com/forum/index.php/topic,70944.0.html

2011 Hyndai Sonata Turbo
http://www.canadiandriver.com/forum/index.php/topic,71105.0.html

2011 Hyundai Sonata
http://www.canadiandriver.com/forum/index.php/topic,63798.0.html

2011 Hyundai Sonata GL; Day 1
http://www.canadiandriver.com/forum/index.php/topic,67558.0.html

First Drive: 2011 Hyundai Sonata Hybrid
http://www.canadiandriver.com/forum/index.php/topic,71884.0.html


I like info on this car as much as anyone else, but when there are that # of separate threads on the go its frustrating to keep track of them all.

You missed the Regal threads which turned into Sonata threads.... 

[Erik]

SONATA GLS BEATS HYBRID IN MPGs
....I decided to test it against the base Sonata GLS, without any hybrid technology. I got one of my fellow jurors to drive the hybrid while I drove the base car, and we took them both out on a 15-mile loop, with me following him, so that we drove the same roads at the same speeds. Get this, the hybrid averaged 33.3 miles per gallon, while the base car got 37.2 mpg, nearly 4 miles to the gallon better. I think Hyundai has got some work to do on its hybrid, and this also shows just how good the base car is.

That is like the time that Top Gear took an M3 (M5? I am not going to look it up, but I recall watching the episode), and an economy car around their test track......

Actually, it is nothing like that time. It sounds like it was a mixed driving loop. Not pushing it flat out on a track.

[Shnak]

SONATA GLS BEATS HYBRID IN MPGs
....I decided to test it against the base Sonata GLS, without any hybrid technology. I got one of my fellow jurors to drive the hybrid while I drove the base car, and we took them both out on a 15-mile loop, with me following him, so that we drove the same roads at the same speeds. Get this, the hybrid averaged 33.3 miles per gallon, while the base car got 37.2 mpg, nearly 4 miles to the gallon better. I think Hyundai has got some work to do on its hybrid, and this also shows just how good the base car is.

That is like the time that Top Gear took an M3 (M5? I am not going to look it up, but I recall watching the episode), and an economy car around their test track......

Actually, it is nothing like that time. It sounds like it was a mixed driving loop. Not pushing it flat out on a track.

But you have to agree that we need more information about the actual 'mixed driving loop', don't you? Something's odd when one guy's account of the Sonata Hybrid goes against what virtually every other review's been saying about the car.

[Neromanceres]

I think this is a very good entry by Hyundai and applaud them for the effort.  The only issue I have is they really uglied the front end.

Also I noticed one big issue with the article.  It mentions the battery in the Volt being inferior to the Sonata.  The Volt uses a lithium polymer (Lithium Manganise Oxide) battery made with cells from the same manufacturer (LG Chem) as used in the Sonata Hybrid.

[Shnak]

I think this is a very good entry by Hyundai and applaud them for the effort.  The only issue I have is they really uglied the front end.

Also I noticed one big issue with the article.  It mentions the battery in the Volt being inferior to the Sonata.  The Volt uses a lithium polymer (Lithium Manganise Oxide) battery made with cells from the same manufacturer (LG Chem) as used in the Sonata Hybrid.

Incorrect. The Volt uses lithium-ion batteries, while the Sonata uses lithium polymer.

From this article:
A technological breakthrough for Hyundai is the company’s new lithium polymer battery pack, developed by LG Chem and Hyundai Auto in Korea, and currently exclusive to Hyundai.  Hyundai claims this battery technology is superior to the nickel-metal hydride batteries used in most other hybrids and lithium-ion batteries being developed for plug-in hybrids, extended range electric cars (Chevy Volt) and pure electric cars.

From the Volt article: http://www.canadiandriver.com/2010/10/20/auto-tech-chevy%e2%80%99s-volt.htm
The battery is made up of 288 lithium-ion cells arranged in a 5.5-foot-long T-shaped module that fits into the bottom of the body

I'm not sure what are the advantages of lithium polymer over lithium-ion though.

EDIT: looked it up and found this bit on wikipedia:
This type has technologically evolved from lithium-ion batteries. The primary difference is that the lithium-salt electrolyte is not held in an organic solvent but in a solid polymer composite such as polyethylene oxide or polyacrylonitrile. The advantages of Li-ion polymer over the lithium-ion design include potentially lower cost of manufacture, adaptability to a wide variety of packaging shapes, and ruggedness.

[dkaz]

That's one ugly front end. Hello reincarnated Sebring.

[gotak]

"In several press releases, Hyundai mentioned they were using an energy capture device on the exhaust ie heat to electricity.  In any research I've done it looks like the max efficiency of this process is around 8%.  Did Hyundai do better or did they drop it from production?"

Air Balancer - "Could you explain"

I think they were using the heat of the exhaust to create steam and feeding that through a small electric turbine generator.  That would be my guess unless they have advanced from there with some sort of solid state conversion process.  However, if this were the case, we would have heard about it in some big headlines.

2/3 of the fuel energy potential in a car goes up in heat so this is an interesting approach but I've never seen a practical implementation.  Too bad if they couldn't pull it off in production but high marks for trying.

Cheers,
John M.

There are things that can generate electricity from heat without moving parts. They are called thermocouple or thermopile. Most famously used on the voyager space probes to generate electricity from heat released by radioactive decay (as they were to travel beyond where soalr panel would be useful). There should be enough heat in the exhaust to do something useful but this sort of technology seems pretty expensive to put into a car like the sonata hybrid.

[crwpitman]

Good gawd, is this not about the 100th thread on the Sonata???

Well there's three distinct versions of the Sonata... 2.4L, turbo and hybrid. Plus, there's been more than one articles for some of those versions.

If you don't like it, just skip any thread with the word 'Sonata' in its title and stop complaining.

Thought that might prompt a response from you.   
This is what I was getting at.  Below are threads about the 2011 Sonata, there's probably more than this, but just looked at ones with posts <120 days:

(links removed - I'm too new to post them)

I like info on this car as much as anyone else, but when there are that # of separate threads on the go its frustrating to keep track of them all.

I think most cars get similar treatments...

There's three models, and usually Canadian Driver does a preview and/or a preview drive (like this one - they drove it, but the drive was limited and they weren't able to record their own numbers), a full fledged test drive and sometimes a day-by-day test drive to see how the car manages day to day life.

That's just how things seem to operate everywhere lately.

The Sonata might seem to be a little moreso as they released the car in stages (Accords and Camrys usually release their 4 and 6 cylinder cars the same time).  Which is smart from a marketing stand point - you get more attention.

[greengs]

This is probably the only Hybrid I'd consider buying but the price would have to be on par with gas engine option otherwise there is no incentive. 

No incentive? It's a lot more fuel efficient than the gas engine. How is that not an incentive?

And while the price is said to be in the low $30k range, you also have to consider that the hybrid is only available as a limited trim, which sells for $29k with the 2.4L engine. The 2.0T limited sells for $32k. With the amount of technology the hybrid packs, it wouldn't be unreasonable to have it priced close to the turbo limited...

I'll wait until official ratings are out but typically you don't buy a Hybrid to save money.  They are more expensive and for most people it takes anywhere from 7 to 20 yrs to recoup the initial incremental costs.  Todays small gas engines are getting better and a lot more fuel efficient.  Like I said the only way I'd buy one was if the prices were the same accross trim levels. 

[crwpitman]

SONATA GLS BEATS HYBRID IN MPGs
....I decided to test it against the base Sonata GLS, without any hybrid technology. I got one of my fellow jurors to drive the hybrid while I drove the base car, and we took them both out on a 15-mile loop, with me following him, so that we drove the same roads at the same speeds. Get this, the hybrid averaged 33.3 miles per gallon, while the base car got 37.2 mpg, nearly 4 miles to the gallon better. I think Hyundai has got some work to do on its hybrid, and this also shows just how good the base car is.

That is like the time that Top Gear took an M3 (M5? I am not going to look it up, but I recall watching the episode), and an economy car around their test track......

Actually, it is nothing like that time. It sounds like it was a mixed driving loop. Not pushing it flat out on a track.

But you have to agree that we need more information about the actual 'mixed driving loop', don't you? Something's odd when one guy's account of the Sonata Hybrid goes against what virtually every other review's been saying about the car.

I agree - the snippet doesn't reveal anything much about where they were driving, which may account for a lot.  For example, most hybrids seems to get the bulk of their fuel economy gain in city driving, at lower speeds with more stop and go.  This route sounds like it might lack that.  The Sonata Hybrid also sounds like it would save more in consistent high speed driving (ie. the highway) by being able to operate solely in electric, but this mixed driving route probably didn't have much of that either.  It's possible that the route was just one that wasn't an area that hybrids would shine in (any hybrids).  Or maybe that kind of mixed (I'm guessing moderate speed) driving keeps the Sonata's conventional transmission in gears (or flipping between gears) that aren't the most efficient for the hybrid.

And slip-stream might factor in as well - maybe they were driving into a head wind, and the GLS got less as the Hybrid was up front?

I guess we'll have to wait until more people test it in the real world - I've only seen estimated numbers so far.

[safristi]

......quote:the lio polymer POTENTIALLY is blah blah blah over the lio olde skool...........who is lio ing here................when the BUYING CUSTOMERS decide ...might be a time to judicate,,,....not u lot bloviating on maybes,,potentially...might....should...and all the other QUALIFIYERS that mean shyte..............many hybrids are decent |Kars      but minus my Tax $$$$ are non starters...or stop and starters.....flywheel me to tha moon................

[Ex-airbalancer]

For example, most hybrids seems to get the bulk of their fuel economy gain in city driving, at lower speeds with more stop and go.

I find the best mileage on flat country roads doing about 90 km/hr

[Spec5]

......quote:the lio polymer POTENTIALLY is blah blah blah over the lio olde skool...........who is lio ing here................when the BUYING CUSTOMERS decide ...might be a time to judicate,,,....not u lot bloviating on maybes,,potentially...might....should...and all the other QUALIFIYERS that mean shyte..............many hybrids are decent |Kars      but minus my Tax $$$$ are non starters...or stop and starters.....flywheel me to tha moon................

Let this be a lesson kids - don't drink and Internet!

[sacrat]

......quote:the lio polymer POTENTIALLY is blah blah blah over the lio olde skool...........who is lio ing here................when the BUYING CUSTOMERS decide ...might be a time to judicate,,,....not u lot bloviating on maybes,,potentially...might....should...and all the other QUALIFIYERS that mean shyte..............many hybrids are decent |Kars      but minus my Tax $$$$ are non starters...or stop and starters.....flywheel me to tha moon................

Let this be a lesson kids - don't drink and Internet!

Most of the "kids" hit the ignore button long ago and didn't see it. That reminds me...

[Alex S]

I think this is a fantastic looking package.  The styling is enough to differentiate it from the gasoline version while keeping the family traits intact.  I have always been a fan of this taupe (?) color..suits this car well.  A tough call between this and the Fusion hybrid..

[JohnnyCash]

I'm sorry but that looks hideous. That huge gaping front end makes it look like a fish. As for the rear, what did they do to the tail lights? They look like some cheap aftermarket lights that teenagers put on their Civics. The standard Sonata has better tail lights than this thing.

Also with regards to this which was stated by the author:

"The 2011 Sonata Hybrid sedan, Hyundai’s first hybrid car, has addressed many of these driveability issues, and though it’s certainly not yet a sport sedan, it has made improvements without compromising the excellent fuel economy people expect from hybrids"

Sorry, but the only people that seem to have "drivability issues" with modern hybrids are mostly auto journalists. Modern hybrids like the Camry hybrid, Highlander Hybrid, Lexus hybrids, Fusion hybrid and Prius all drive fine for the average consumer.

[dirtyjeffer]

Also with regards to this which was stated by the author:

"The 2011 Sonata Hybrid sedan, Hyundai’s first hybrid car, has addressed many of these driveability issues, and though it’s certainly not yet a sport sedan, it has made improvements without compromising the excellent fuel economy people expect from hybrids"

Sorry, but the only people that seem to have "drivability issues" with modern hybrids are mostly auto journalists. Modern hybrids like the Camry hybrid, Highlander Hybrid, Lexus hybrids, Fusion hybrid and Prius all drive fine for the average consumer.

the common issue is the CVT...most people dislike them...the Sonata Hybrid doesn't use a CVT, which helps it feel more like a "normal" car.

[R]

Has anyone noticed how these manufacturers that have hybrids always do their press test drives in a warm climate?  I have a Lexus RX400h and it's was released to the press in Hawaii in 2005.  This Hyundai looks like it was done in California. 

The Autoline Detroit article was (I assume) done in Detroit in October.  All vehicles suffer a MPG penalty in cold weather due to various factors (winter gas, more accessories running, heater, defroster etc.).  The mileage penalty in a hybrid may be even more than a regular gas engine vehicle, as the motor has to run more often to keep the catalytic converters up to operating temperature and also keep the coolant hot for cabin climate control.  This in addition to charging the batteries, which a non hybrid doesn't have to do.

Just a thought....or two....as to why the hybrid mileage may not be exactly as claimed.

[Ex-airbalancer]

2 tanks to drive the lower US
http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?p=292785