Topic: How did Hyundai do it?

[vdk]

Let’s take the Elantra’s NA 2-litre engine that produces 138HP, as an example.  If this engine is to make 274HP by turbocharging, the boot should be more than 14psi, since engine output varies in a quasi-direct relationship to the amount of fuel burnt in a given time.  In other words, you have to make the engine in question burn 100% more gas, which is only possible by feeding 100% more air (oxygen) by force.  Fine, the turbocharger can do it. However, problem is that by feeding 100% more air means the effective compression ratio becomes about 20 to 1, which is well into the diesel territory.  Higher compression ratio means higher temperature in the combustion chamber, which means the air/fuel mixture may ignite spontaneously. If the flame front (front of the combusting pressure wave) collides against the flame front from the sparkplug ignition that’s called knocking.  Take a look at the following video:

http://www.geocities.jp/bequemereise/knocking.html

To reduce the chance of knocking you can do several things:
1) Use the gas less prone to spontaneous ignition (premium gas).
2) Lower temperature inside the combustion chamber by squirting (injecting) gas directly against the cylinder wall (still hot from previous combustion) so that evaporating gas cools the combustion chamber.
3) Time the fuel injection so that the sparkplug-ignited flame front reaches the cylinder wall before unburnt fuel/air mixture ignites spontaneously. This may require two- or three-staged injections in a combustion cycle.
4) Place the sparkplug in the top centre of the combustion chamber so that the sparkplug-ignited flame front reaches at the cylinder wall in the shortest time possible evenly.  (Flame front travel speed is same for regular or premium gas.)

There may be other tricks to reduce the chance of knocking, but at any rate Hyundai should be commended for squeezing out 274HP from a 2-litre engine.  BTW, fuel economy of turbocharged engine should be looked at with the understanding that turbocharger (as well as supercharger) is a device to burn MORE fuel. The published fuel economy is measured with rather easy gas pedal modulation.  IF you step on it to the metal when starting and passing, certainly gas mileage goes down quite remarkably.  Hyundai must be using all the known (and some unknown, maybe) tricks to reduce fuel consumption such as, when load is low, delaying intake valve closure and mixing oxygen-depleted exhaust gas in the intake air.

Nice post!

Yeah. x2
 

[gotak]

Would be nice if we do start seeing automotive sites that actually find out the nitty gritty from hyundai. I am sure they are using a lot of the tricks mentioned. I recall some noise about specially designing oil delivery to cool the cylinder walls for example on their 2.4 GDI engine.

At any rate I am temped to go try it out in a test drive at some point....

[Shnak]

I was reading a review and thought this paragraph was relevant to this thread:

http://www.gearlog.com/2010/10/car_review_hyundai_sonata_20t.php
Hyundai turned to a bunch of tech tricks, the details of which are mostly of interest to performance fanatics: a split wall in the turbocharger between cylinders 1-2 and 3-4 to reduce air interference, an air guide in the intercooler that reduces the temperature of pressurized air going into the engine by an additional 50 degrees, and gasoline direct injection (GDI) that precisely sprays six jets of fuel into each cylinder.

[tpl]

There we are then.  Everything G35x says, plus lots of extra cooling of the charge and fancy injectors to spray SIX jets of fuel. Now we need to know if those jets are primarily for even combustion or for cooling the cylinder head as well to keep knock away. Most likely both.

I wonder if that is one injector with six holes or maybe three with two holes each. I'm thinking of the effects of some of those microscopic holes getting plugged...even with probably 20,000 psi or more pressure when they start injecting.

I could learn to love this engine.

[Mike]

There we are then.  Everything G35x says, plus lots of extra cooling of the charge and fancy injectors to spray SIX jets of fuel. Now we need to know if those jets are primarily for even combustion or for cooling the cylinder head as well to keep knock away. Most likely both.

I wonder if that is one injector with six holes or maybe three with two holes each. I'm thinking of the effects of some of those microscopic holes getting plugged...even with probably 20,000 psi or more pressure when they start injecting.

I could learn to love this engine.

Ask and you shall recieve.  From Autoweek:



Fuel delivery is by gasoline direct injection, which sprays the air/fuel mix into the cylinders through six holes in each injector for optimal combustion

Read more: http://www.autoweek.com/article/20100713/carreviews/100719970#ixzz12Fjn8pE9

[gotak]

Interesting that they feel lack of Xenon headlights is an issue. Steerable headlights i have on my car is nice and does help light a turn in the dark, lane departure and blind spot warning are also nice to have (I don't have either as well). But to say a con is lack of xenon is a bit strange. Yes it's a higher end turbo model but after looking at how much it'll cost me to replace the bulbs in my car and having used it for a while I don't feel that xenon actually bring enough benefits. Maybe if I get to use my high beams or after winter I'll feel different but right now it's a big meh I'd rather save on the cost.

[mmret]

Interesting that they feel lack of Xenon headlights is an issue. Steerable headlights i have on my car is nice and does help light a turn in the dark, lane departure and blind spot warning are also nice to have (I don't have either as well). But to say a con is lack of xenon is a bit strange. Yes it's a higher end turbo model but after looking at how much it'll cost me to replace the bulbs in my car and having used it for a while I don't feel that xenon actually bring enough benefits. Maybe if I get to use my high beams or after winter I'll feel different but right now it's a big meh I'd rather save on the cost.

Xenon light output is about 3x Halogens and a much wider beam pattern also.

Also, the Xenon bulbs last ages and really aren't that much more than a high end halogen bulb in terms of cost. Thus in terms of cost/yr its much better.

[gotak]

Interesting that they feel lack of Xenon headlights is an issue. Steerable headlights i have on my car is nice and does help light a turn in the dark, lane departure and blind spot warning are also nice to have (I don't have either as well). But to say a con is lack of xenon is a bit strange. Yes it's a higher end turbo model but after looking at how much it'll cost me to replace the bulbs in my car and having used it for a while I don't feel that xenon actually bring enough benefits. Maybe if I get to use my high beams or after winter I'll feel different but right now it's a big meh I'd rather save on the cost.

Xenon light output is about 3x Halogens and a much wider beam pattern also.

Also, the Xenon bulbs last ages and really aren't that much more than a high end halogen bulb in terms of cost. Thus in terms of cost/yr its much better.

Well the xenons on the mazda 3 requires removing the bumper and lights to change. So you can see how something that should only cost a bulb suddenly cost a lot more. For me I'd take a crack at doing it myself but for a lot of people it would be like couple hundred dollars just to change a bulb.

[gord_boyd]

To answer the thread question would take one or two books because
Korea had to compete with Japan who dominated markets much earlier and made the task
very difficult:
(My Idea Of Discussion Points/Chapters):
1.) Post War Copying the Japanese Trading House system with ex Military discipline in personnel building gov't sanctioned Chabeols
combined with protectionism.

2.)  Huge Push in Education while Making significant depreciations of Korean Won at turn-downs world economies

3.)  Very Good Central Planning; putting together all the pieces.

4.)  Read Fortune's article about Company ways.  When light weight advanced steel became a strategic item, huge pressure was brought
to bear on Hyundai Steel with President of Hyundai Motors flying his jet helicopter as many as 5X per week over steel plant construction.
This takes tremendous government direction of their limited resources to accomplish goals.  Leadership like John Krafcik and stretch goals
is very much part of success.  ( I like it that Krafcik owns a Catterham in his garage).

5.)  Huge capitalization has been part of Financial footings.  Sometimes this has backfired but with geographically positioned
production in China/India/ & Iran for the new middle class and the Asia Demand, things have worked out (so far).  I have studied buying Stock
but over-valuations by loyal Koreans have prevented me jumping in.  The only auto stock I own is Honda.

( It is interesting that conquest sales are coming from 3 top Japanese firms foremostly Lexus Owners, and profile of wealth of typical Buyers is much higher than previously thought.  I made this point on VTEC.NET almost a year ago and got closed out as a troll--see moans and groans commentary)

     

[Marko]

Big deal, the Honda S2000 got 240 hp out of 2 liters with NO turbo.

[mmret]

Interesting that they feel lack of Xenon headlights is an issue. Steerable headlights i have on my car is nice and does help light a turn in the dark, lane departure and blind spot warning are also nice to have (I don't have either as well). But to say a con is lack of xenon is a bit strange. Yes it's a higher end turbo model but after looking at how much it'll cost me to replace the bulbs in my car and having used it for a while I don't feel that xenon actually bring enough benefits. Maybe if I get to use my high beams or after winter I'll feel different but right now it's a big meh I'd rather save on the cost.

Xenon light output is about 3x Halogens and a much wider beam pattern also.

Also, the Xenon bulbs last ages and really aren't that much more than a high end halogen bulb in terms of cost. Thus in terms of cost/yr its much better.

Well the xenons on the mazda 3 requires removing the bumper and lights to change. So you can see how something that should only cost a bulb suddenly cost a lot more. For me I'd take a crack at doing it myself but for a lot of people it would be like couple hundred dollars just to change a bulb.

I would happily pay a few hundred bucks every 6 years to have the Xenons changed. Can't go back to Halogen.

[rrocket]

Big deal, the Honda S2000 got 240 hp out of 2 liters with NO turbo.

Yea..but it made huge sacrifices in torque to do it....

[vdk]

Big deal, the Honda S2000 got 240 hp out of 2 liters with NO turbo.

And the RX8 put out 230 out of 1.3 litres. 

[rrocket]

Big deal, the Honda S2000 got 240 hp out of 2 liters with NO turbo.

And the RX8 put out 230 out of 1.3 litres. 

Yea..but it's twin rotor, and using conventional cylinder math calculations it comes to 1.3L.  But using more appropriate math, some calculate it as a 2.6L..or larger.

Still a neat-o engine though!!

[tpl]

Interesting that they feel lack of Xenon headlights is an issue. Steerable headlights i have on my car is nice and does help light a turn in the dark, lane departure and blind spot warning are also nice to have (I don't have either as well). But to say a con is lack of xenon is a bit strange. Yes it's a higher end turbo model but after looking at how much it'll cost me to replace the bulbs in my car and having used it for a while I don't feel that xenon actually bring enough benefits. Maybe if I get to use my high beams or after winter I'll feel different but right now it's a big meh I'd rather save on the cost.

Xenon light output is about 3x Halogens and a much wider beam pattern also.

Also, the Xenon bulbs last ages and really aren't that much more than a high end halogen bulb in terms of cost. Thus in terms of cost/yr its much better.

Well the xenons on the mazda 3 requires removing the bumper and lights to change. So you can see how something that should only cost a bulb suddenly cost a lot more. For me I'd take a crack at doing it myself but for a lot of people it would be like couple hundred dollars just to change a bulb.

I would happily pay a few hundred bucks every 6 years to have the Xenons changed. Can't go back to Halogen.

Xenons only for me.   

[Shnak]

Big deal, the Honda S2000 got 240 hp out of 2 liters with NO turbo.

and Honda would never dare put that engine in the Accord...

[Mike]

Big deal, the Honda S2000 got 240 hp out of 2 liters with NO turbo.

and Honda would never dare put that engine in the Accord...

Unless it was in Europe 

[tpl]

Big deal, the Honda S2000 got 240 hp out of 2 liters with NO turbo.

and Honda would never dare put that engine in the Accord...

Unless it was in Europe 

And then only as an option.   The Accord in Eu  = TSX here is not sold as a screaming M3 equivalent.

[Shnak]

Big deal, the Honda S2000 got 240 hp out of 2 liters with NO turbo.

and Honda would never dare put that engine in the Accord...

Unless it was in Europe 

And then only as an option.   The Accord in Eu  = TSX here is not sold as a screaming M3 equivalent.

Did they really put that S2000 engine in the Accord in europe? Wow! I soooo would've bought that Accord! 

(Then again, I probably would've found it to be too small as the TSX is on the smaller side for my taste...)

[Mike]

Yeah, we get the watered down 2.4L version, still impressive, but no Euro-R