Topic: Autoextemist Blasts BMW's Future Product Plans

[rrocket]

I think most worrisome is how it will look.  Since these will be smaller cars, squishing the traditional BMW shape might make things ugly really quick (a la 1 Series)

[johngenx]

Call me old-school, but I think car companies have soul.  Well, some do.  Toyota has had some pretty cool products over the year, but I still think of them as the makers of transportation devices, not enthusiast machines.  This is true of pretty much all makes, save for a few that have a special bent towards making enjoyable cars.  They were...

1. Porsche.  This the make that I never thought would totally cave in to making appliances.  They have had their goofs over the years, but I really thought that they would stay true to their mission of making special cars that combined unique styling and a combination of handling and power that made them truly enjoyable to drive.

2. BMW.  Peter is right.  These guys invented the sports sedan and right through the 1990's, seemed to be the one true make that stayed in touch with the driver's soul.

3. Mercedes-Benz.  Yes, they are my list.  Mercedes was also special in their thinking, pioneering technology and making cars that were all-day and all-night comfortable at ridiculous speeds.  I drove a 190E-16V across Montana, rarely dipping below 180km/h, and today, it's still a strong memory of how well those cars worked.

Now, all three of these makers are considering or making FWD machines that will offer little or no driving pleasure, as is true of pretty much every other FWD car sold.  FWD is about economical production and packaging and creating an understeering "safe" driving experience for people with little or no car-control skill.  There are a couple decent FWD cars, but they would be much better driving machines with RWD or a well-set-up AWD system.

The owners of BMW cars laughed at the drivers of bloated Caddies that threatened to scrape their side mirrors off in every corner.  BMW delivered trim, sleek cars that presented superb ergonomics to the driver and wasted not a centimeter of sheet metal.

Are companies really about profits and nothing else?  Aren't they made up of people with passion?  A world that seeks profit and pays no attention to art, passion, or other esoteric pursuits?  No thanks.

[rrocket]

I think initially the response will be the same as when Porsche decided to have front engined cars (or to a lesser extent when they decided to make "cheap" Boxsters).  And like Porsche, after they drive some of these BMWs, they'll say "this ain't so bad".

There have been some really good FWD cars...GTI, Integra/RSX, Cobalt SS, etc....If anyone can make a decent and sporty FWD car, BMW should be able to.

[Mike]

I think initially the response will be the same as when Porsche decided to have front engined cars (or to a lesser extent when they decided to make "cheap" Boxsters).  And like Porsche, after they drive some of these BMWs, they'll say "this ain't so bad".

There have been some really good FWD cars...GTI, Integra/RSX, Cobalt SS, etc....If anyone can make a decent and sporty FWD car, BMW should be able to.

Like a Mini?     

[johngenx]

There have been some really good passable, low to moderate powered FWD cars...GTI, Integra/RSX, Cobalt SS, etc....If anyone can make a decent and sporty FWD car, BMW should be able to.

FTFY.

[johngenx]

I would rather that BMW produced light, decent handling FWD cars than the bloated 5000lb+ SUVs they ahve fallen in love with...

[Mike]

I would rather that BMW produced light, decent handling FWD cars than the bloated 5000lb+ SUVs they ahve fallen in love with...

Fully agreed

[rrocket]

There have been some really good passable, low to moderate powered FWD cars...GTI, Integra/RSX, Cobalt SS, etc....If anyone can make a decent and sporty FWD car, BMW should be able to.

FTFY.

You know the Cobalt SS gets around the Ring the same time as an E46 M3, right? And faster than a Boxster S among others.  Are those 2 cars also just "passable"??

[johngenx]

You know the Cobalt SS gets around the Ring the same time as an E46 M3, right? And faster than a Boxster S among others.  Are those 2 cars also just "passable"??

I haven't driven the Cobalt, but I can't see how driving it would be as fun as either RWD car.  Sure, it might post faster lap times, but I'm interested in more than the stopwatch.  I know that the Speed3 is very fast, but I sure didn't find it all that enjoyable to drive.  Too much power for the front wheels, plain and simple...

[rrocket]

You know the Cobalt SS gets around the Ring the same time as an E46 M3, right? And faster than a Boxster S among others.  Are those 2 cars also just "passable"??

I haven't driven the Cobalt, but I can't see how driving it would be as fun as either RWD car.  Sure, it might post faster lap times, but I'm interested in more than the stopwatch.  I know that the Speed3 is very fast, but I sure didn't find it all that enjoyable to drive.  Too much power for the front wheels, plain and simple...

The GTI and RSX are plenty of fun to drive....driven either?

And of course they won't be as fun as a RWD...but I don't think that automatically means they will be crap...

[mmret]

But what will the call it? The 0 series?

Part of me wonders if they could create a great experiment of creating a lower-end mass market subbrand. Toyota to Lexus except Lexus as the mothership! Might as well roll Mini into it while you're at it.

I suppose it depends on what their goal is...a 10% sales boost with some FWD clown car? Or a whole lineup of FWD based stuff to satisfy the everyman and compete with Camcords and VWs? Would the marketing / strategy work if you pitched it as "OurNewBrand, by BMW"?

The arrival of the B class, the new, crippled Jetta, and departure of the Passat were indeed worrying signs!

[tpl]

Surely the Mini brand has becoming BMW's front drive sub-brand. Mini in 2 different power levels, the Clubman which is a sort of wagon and the nearly an SUV awd version.   Add a van version as Minis always had and a pickup version which they had for a few years and there you are.     I wonder if they could make a limo or a motorhome( for short people)

[TopGun]

It is a bigger issue than just deciding on which wheels should be driven.....I imagine many in the company took pride in making the cars around the driver, not around marketing and CO2 regs.....It will make short time profit but lose their face doing so. Just my 2 cents.

Nice ones Dan.

Surely the Mini brand has becoming BMW's front drive sub-brand. .....

Yes tpl...that's where I start to have the issue with it as I just don't see enough room in between BMW and Mini.  Being all things to all people may work in the short term...but makes it really hard to differentiate in the long term.

[Mike]

Surely the Mini brand has becoming BMW's front drive sub-brand. .....

Yes tpl...that's where I start to have the issue with it as I just don't see enough room in between BMW and Mini.  Being all things to all people may work in the short term...but makes it really hard to differentiate in the long term.

Best example is GM.  In the late 90's there was so much cross and market confusion between Oldsmobile, Pontiac and Buick.  I had a 5 speed manual 2 door FWD compact coupe from Oldsmobile (Alero).  Where did that fit in?Now what's left of these three brands?

[gotak]

Over reaction. Purist will always buy the RWD saying how it feels more fun, handles better, etc etc. But majority of people don't know how many cylinder, horsepower (I truly believe if I told my sister her camry's power in hamster power she wouldn't know anything's out of place)or what wheel drive.

What they do think about when they look into a car is A) seats B) cost vs prestige C) needs/features. Look at Lexus they keep selling rebanded camry to people and they still buy them and tell people they drive a lexus.

I'd also like to point out that while RWD makes some sense for a driver's car. And I don't doubt that BMW will continue to have models like that for people who wants that. The use of FWD makes a heck of a lot of sense for the vast majority of their customers who buys the bigger bimmers. Few people who buys a 7 is going to push their car around a corner in power over steer mode. Most of the owner of such cars would either not care it's FWD cause they never notice the difference or want AWD for the myth of "safety" in difficult meteorological conditions.

[sailor723]

"Yes tpl...that's where I start to have the issue with it as I just don't see enough room in between BMW and Mini.  Being all things to all people may work in the short term...but makes it really hard to differentiate in the long term"

I'd agree. The upper end of the Mini lineup overlaps with BMW in terms of cost as things are now. Where's the gap in the product line they need to fill?....maybe a "bigger" Mini?

[G35X]

“If the head line was '3 Seires to be FWD in 2013' or '5 Series now AWD ES350 competitor' that would be a whole different monkey… “ – Mike

“I imagine many in the company took pride in making the cars around the driver, not around marketing and CO2 regs… “ – DanYanoff

BMW has no choice.  It has to dilute CAFE so that you auto enthusiasts can enjoy driving future RWD M3’s and M5’s. Unlike some exotic supercar manufacturers BMW is a mass production automaker.  It has to minimize the effect of penalty as much as possible.  EV’s are most suitable to dilute CAFE. But, small FWD gas/diesel cars should help. Building a new FWD platform derived from the Mini is the natural course it can take.  But, chances are that it might OEM to save time from other manufactures with advanced small car technologies such as FIAT(already meets 120g CO2/km and has the TwinAir engine), Honda(the new Fit hybrid), Mazda(the new SKY-G and SKY-D engines to be annouced on October 21st)… 

[tpl]

"Yes tpl...that's where I start to have the issue with it as I just don't see enough room in between BMW and Mini.  Being all things to all people may work in the short term...but makes it really hard to differentiate in the long term"

I'd agree. The upper end of the Mini lineup overlaps with BMW in terms of cost as things are now. Where's the gap in the product line they need to fill?....maybe a "bigger" Mini?

In their home market there is a great deal of overlap not just at the upper end of mini. You forget those BMW 120D and 316 versions that we never see.

I don't think there is a gap. in Europe anyway. As for here... why bother... if things get tough then maybe make a A3 sized  1 series from the Euro bodyshell.

As for CAFE, just bring the smaller diesels in the 3 series and the Mini range

[TopGun]

In their home market there is a great deal of overlap not just at the upper end of mini. You forget those BMW 120D and 316 versions that we never see.
....
As for CAFE, just bring the smaller diesels in the 3 series and the Mini range

Sure...isn't that 120D and 316 RWD though?  Someone just needs to tell me where the line is then...'cause without one, you end up with Vmango and Mike's comments.

Recall that Olds had the best selling car for several years in the '80s.

Best example is GM.  In the late 90's there was so much cross and market confusion.....Now what's left of these three brands?

[Erik]

AN excellent idea. Just like this one: