Author Topic: Feature: Price comparison - 2011 Ford Fiesta vs 2011 Mazda2  (Read 11912 times)

goonboy

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Re: Feature: Price comparison - 2011 Ford Fiesta vs 2011 Mazda2
« Reply #20 on: September 11, 2010, 02:20:23 pm »
While the outcome may not change too much, it seems strange to compare the two cars' pricing using Ford's TEMPORARY employee pricing incentive that ends in about two weeks (Sept.30). It would be more realistic to compare apples to apples, then point out the savings on the Ford for those ready to buy "right now".

Excellent point Sacrat.  I wonder if Mr. Chase concurs?

Frankly, it is no coincidence that Mr. Chase is slanting his review towards the Fiesta considering immediately to the right of the article (and everywhere else on the site) you conveniently have a Ford ad about the very same promotion mentioned in the review.



editorgreg

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Re: Feature: Price comparison - 2011 Ford Fiesta vs 2011 Mazda2
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2010, 06:07:15 pm »
Goonboy: the price comparison article was written by the editor, Greg Wilson (me) while the Fiesta Test Drive was written by Chris Chase.  I chose to include Ford's Employee Pricing Discount because that is what the car sells for now.  And I wouldn't be surprised to see those rebates continued in the future, as they often are.  As for the Ford ad, be assured that CanadianDriver's editorial and advertising departments are completely separate.  There is no communication between us.  However, the latest web technology allows advertisers to place ads on the same pages as their products, if they so desire.

Sival

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Re: Feature: Price comparison - 2011 Ford Fiesta vs 2011 Mazda2
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2010, 10:28:54 pm »
Quote
Short gearing does not automatically mean poor highway fuel economy.  Engine size, throttle position, aerodynamics and torque curve all play roles.  If the gearing is too tall for a low torque engine, you'll have to downshift at the slightest grade.  Driving one or two gears down all the time helps?  Nope.  People criticize the Corolla for not having a fifth speed and revving a bit high on the highway, but the car has no problem achieving 5.0L/100km on the highway.  If gearing were all it took, all cars would tick along at idle at 100.

You're right that there are many factors at play. However, the fact that, all else being equal, taller gearing leads to better fuel economy is true in most cases, generally as long as the engine is turning at over 1000 RPMs. The reason is that engines tend to be more efficient if the throttle is more open, the more you throttle the entry of gas, the worse the efficiency. Since power is dependent on RPM, this means that the lower the RPM, the more open the throttle needs to be to generate the same power, and the more efficient the engine is.

Now, that's a bit of a simplification, the truth is that you need a Brake Specific Fuel Consumption graph to find out the truth. This is a graph that gives the BSFC rating (the amount of fuel burnt by power unit generated) depending on the RPM (x-axis) and the amount of torque generated (lb-ft). Each engine has its own graph, but they're all a bit the same, the best BSFC tends to be near the limit of the torque output of the engine around 2000 to 3000 RPMs.

Here's an example, first posted on GMinsidenews's forum that showcases why lower RPMs mean better fuel economy. The graph is of the Saturn 1.9L DOHC engine. The red line you can see is the amount of torque needed to generate 20 hp (hp=torque times RPM divided by 5252), so at 3500 RPM, you need to throttle the engine to generate around 30 lb-ft of torque, at 1500 RPM, you must generate around 70 lb-ft of torque to do so.

As you can see, the optimal efficiency is at around 1200 RPM, with a BSFC of maybe 280-285 (lower is better). If you want, let's compare efficiency at 2000 RPM versus 3000 RPM. At 2000 RPM, it's around 325 g/kWh, at 3000 RPM, it's around 350 g/kWh. This means that this particular engine will have a 7% lower fuel consumption rate at 2000 RPM than at 3000 RPM while generating a constant 20 hp. That means if the fuel consumption was of 6 l/100 Km at 3000 RPM, it would be around 5,6 l/100 Km at 2000 RPM. If you'd find a way to make the engine turn at 1200 RPM instead, the fuel consumption would be 20% better than at 3000 RPM, so 4,8 l/100 Km. Of course, at that point any slight incline or gust of wind will result in the vehicle being unable to maintain its speed.

All the other factors you mentioned affect the amount of horsepower required to maintain speed or to increase it.



Now, does this graph means that you're better off driving with the pedal to the floor for efficiency? Well, yes and no. When accelerating, it would be theoretically better to drive in wide-open-throttle (WOT) while keeping engine RPMs low, however in automatics, the transmission is just going to get the engine RPM higher because it understands the pedal-to-the-metal as a demand for more power, not efficiency, so it will shift in a gear giving more power, which will make the car less efficient. Even if you're in a manual, WOT in top gear will make you drive at insane speeds on the highway, which will increase air resistance and so the amount of power needed to maintain speed which will increase fuel consumption.

So the advice for fuel economy is: accelerate with an open throttle but in the highest gear possible, but stop accelerating when you reach a relatively low speed.

Offline johngenx

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Re: Feature: Price comparison - 2011 Ford Fiesta vs 2011 Mazda2
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2010, 11:16:43 pm »
Why doesn't my Corolla have an extreme overdrive gear that has it sit at 1200rpm at 90-100km/h?  Because, as you noted, a 0.01% grade or 2km/h headwind would require a downshift.  So, I agree with you that lower rpm equates to increased fuel economy, in reality (aero drag, hills, passing, etc) it's not realistic to just add a lower gear and automatically lower fuel consumption.  It's about figuring out a ratio that allows the engine to operate at as low an rpm as possible, without requiring constant shifting or WOT operation.

One reason cars like the Prius achieve outstanding fuel economy is aerodynamic management and low friction operation.  Sure, the hybrid driveline is a big deal, but with gasoline cars like our Corolla nipping on its heels, it shows that other factors are very important.  Our Corolla "coasts" better than any car we've ever owned, and by a significant margin.  Lower the rolling resistance and aero drag, and you'll make real gains in fuel economy.  You could lower the top gear engine rpm, or perhaps keep the rpm the same and reduce the engine size.  The Fit has a fairly high highway rpm, but the engine is very small.

Long ago I owned a Camaro with a massive V-8 engine that had very tall gearing, allowing the engine to tick over at barely above idle at 100km/h.  For the era, the car could post some decent fuel economy numbers despite the modified engine making over 400hp and 500lbs-ft.  The trick was the engine made monstrous amounts of torque at 1000rpm.  The problem was that the moment you pushed the gas pedal, the giant Holley opened up and many, many dead dinosaurs were consumed.  Today's V-8 Camaro makes similar ponies and makes better fuel economy thanks to better aerodynamics, lower systemic friction and electronic engine management that optimizes fuel delivery.

Offline Mozeby

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Re: Feature: Price comparison - 2011 Ford Fiesta vs 2011 Mazda2
« Reply #24 on: September 11, 2010, 11:19:57 pm »
Short gearing does not automatically mean poor highway fuel economy.  Engine size, throttle position, aerodynamics and torque curve all play roles.  If the gearing is too tall for a low torque engine, you'll have to downshift at the slightest grade.  Driving one or two gears down all the time helps?  Nope.  People criticize the Corolla for not having a fifth speed and revving a bit high on the highway, but the car has no problem achieving 5.0L/100km on the highway.  If gearing were all it took, all cars would tick along at idle at 100.

The Fiesta is rated for 7.1L/100km city and 5.3L/100km highway.  The Fit is rated at 7.1/5.5, or pretty much identical to the Fiesta.

Look at the difference between the Fiesta auto and manual.  2 indentical cars, save for the gearing.  The auto in theory should be less efficient because the transmission has a higher parasitic drag on the engine and weighs slightly more, yet it achieves a better fuel economy number, 40 versus 37 mpg.  Same goes for the Fit auto and manual.  The manual 5 spd is rated at 27/33 mpg.  The 5 spd auto is 28/35 mpg.  It's because the auto has longer gears that allow the engine to rev lower at the same speeds.

Offline johngenx

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Re: Feature: Price comparison - 2011 Ford Fiesta vs 2011 Mazda2
« Reply #25 on: September 11, 2010, 11:28:13 pm »
Look at the difference between the Fiesta auto and manual.  2 indentical cars, save for the gearing.  The auto in theory should be less efficient because the transmission has a higher parasitic drag on the engine and weighs slightly more, yet it achieves a better fuel economy number, 40 versus 37 mpg.  Same goes for the Fit auto and manual.  The manual 5 spd is rated at 27/33 mpg.  The 5 spd auto is 28/35 mpg.  It's because the auto has longer gears that allow the engine to rev lower at the same speeds.

I'd also be interested in the testing system when it comes to manual transmissions.  One reason that AT versions often achieve better real world fuel economy is that automatics short shift compared to users of manual transmissions.  Also, automatics have less systemic losses than ever.

Sival

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Re: Feature: Price comparison - 2011 Ford Fiesta vs 2011 Mazda2
« Reply #26 on: September 12, 2010, 12:15:08 am »
Short gearing does not automatically mean poor highway fuel economy.  Engine size, throttle position, aerodynamics and torque curve all play roles.  If the gearing is too tall for a low torque engine, you'll have to downshift at the slightest grade.  Driving one or two gears down all the time helps?  Nope.  People criticize the Corolla for not having a fifth speed and revving a bit high on the highway, but the car has no problem achieving 5.0L/100km on the highway.  If gearing were all it took, all cars would tick along at idle at 100.

The Fiesta is rated for 7.1L/100km city and 5.3L/100km highway.  The Fit is rated at 7.1/5.5, or pretty much identical to the Fiesta.

Look at the difference between the Fiesta auto and manual.  2 indentical cars, save for the gearing.  The auto in theory should be less efficient because the transmission has a higher parasitic drag on the engine and weighs slightly more, yet it achieves a better fuel economy number, 40 versus 37 mpg.  Same goes for the Fit auto and manual.  The manual 5 spd is rated at 27/33 mpg.  The 5 spd auto is 28/35 mpg.  It's because the auto has longer gears that allow the engine to rev lower at the same speeds.

Actually, the case of the Fiesta is an inversion, as it uses a DSG automatic transmission that doesn't have a torque converter and its parasitic losses. It's akin to an automated manual transmission with dry clutches. The case of the Fit you mentioned however proves it, with the less efficient automatic nonetheless getting better fuel economy because of taller gearing (plus the automatic is programmed to act like a conservative driver whereas the driver of the manual is mandated to drive in an average way during the test, which hurts the manual's results versus what it can obtain with an economy-minded driver).

Vanstar

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Re: Feature: Price comparison - 2011 Ford Fiesta vs 2011 Mazda2
« Reply #27 on: September 13, 2010, 01:05:46 am »
My 2008 Fit manual consumes 5.9 litres/100km on the highway. It now has 30,000 km on it and its fuel consumption has improved steadily since the car was new.

I live in downtown Vancouver and in such heavy traffic, the Fit has averaged 8.2 litres/100 km over the last 10,000 km. The best I have ever seen in such traffic was 7.9. I could do better if I didn't not use the VTEC feature as much.

Sival

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Re: Feature: Price comparison - 2011 Ford Fiesta vs 2011 Mazda2
« Reply #28 on: September 13, 2010, 08:42:03 am »
One reason cars like the Prius achieve outstanding fuel economy is aerodynamic management and low friction operation.  Sure, the hybrid driveline is a big deal, but with gasoline cars like our Corolla nipping on its heels, it shows that other factors are very important.  Our Corolla "coasts" better than any car we've ever owned, and by a significant margin.  Lower the rolling resistance and aero drag, and you'll make real gains in fuel economy.  You could lower the top gear engine rpm, or perhaps keep the rpm the same and reduce the engine size.  The Fit has a fairly high highway rpm, but the engine is very small.

You mentioned the Prius, so I guess I should point out that the Prius' engine BSFC graphs are out there on the 'net, with an interesting addition to them.

Here is the graph, taken from ecomodder:


It compares both current and previous versions of the Prius engines. The black lines you see called "operating are" are where the engines operate. That means the Prius engines tend to stay near WOT state, in the most effective spot they can be. This would be impossible in a normal car, as we both mentioned, do that with a typical car and you will force the transmission or the driver to downshift for anything.

What allows the Prius to do it is two things: First, the CVT which allows the Prius to stay in that operating area no matter what speed it is at. Second, the electric motor is there in case the driver requests a boost of power, as it can instantly react and add its power to the gas engine until that engine can react.

As it stands, in the 2010 MY, the Prius is rated to be about 30% more efficient than the Corolla on the highway (4,0 l/100 Km versus 5,6 l/100 Km). Aerodynamics and low friction tires do help the Prius, but Toyota also maximizes them for the Corolla (even if to a lesser extent). I think it's a safe bet to presume that most of this increase is due to what the hybrid powertrain allows, namely keeping the gas engine in the "sweet spot" that is rarely achieved in conventional vehicles, thanks to the CVT and the assistance of the electric motor.

BTW, this is true for the Prius only, I do not know if the other hybrids do it as much. They may do something a bit like that, but not to the extreme the Prius (special engineered for fuel economy) goes to.

Offline D70

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Re: Feature: Price comparison - 2011 Ford Fiesta vs 2011 Mazda2
« Reply #29 on: September 14, 2010, 09:01:05 am »
And the winner is'

Honda Fit,

 I do not believe any over 5 ft can fit in the back seat in the Fiesta & Mazda

I am 6 ft and have driven them both and then tried to sit in the back seat .  The Fiesta is a struggle while the Mazda 2 presented no problem.  Both had the manual 5 speed and the clear winner was the Mazda 2 the Fiesta feeling like a big cushy American car compared to a Miata type experience

http://www.flickr.com/photos/d70w7/4851595214/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/d70w7/4214218430/

http://www.flickr.com/photos/d70w7/4931132046/

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Re: Feature: Price comparison - 2011 Ford Fiesta vs 2011 Mazda2
« Reply #30 on: September 14, 2010, 02:04:50 pm »
Look at the difference between the Fiesta auto and manual.  2 indentical cars, save for the gearing.  The auto in theory should be less efficient because the transmission has a higher parasitic drag on the engine and weighs slightly more, yet it achieves a better fuel economy number, 40 versus 37 mpg.  Same goes for the Fit auto and manual.  The manual 5 spd is rated at 27/33 mpg.  The 5 spd auto is 28/35 mpg.  It's because the auto has longer gears that allow the engine to rev lower at the same speeds.

I'd also be interested in the testing system when it comes to manual transmissions.  One reason that AT versions often achieve better real world fuel economy is that automatics short shift compared to users of manual transmissions.  Also, automatics have less systemic losses than ever.

I think that we're all used to seeing better ratings for manuals mainly because they always came with more gears.  These days most autos have the same amount of gears as the manuals do, and they're usually programmed to upshift early to save gas.