Author Topic: 2011 Toyota Avalon XLS; Day 1  (Read 29073 times)

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: 2011 Toyota Avalon XLS; Day 1
« Reply #80 on: September 08, 2010, 10:13:06 am »

I have been refraining to respond to Mr. O the GM slappy, but here it is...
Go on with it, just buy the damn Grampy car why don't you.  The Lacross is nothing but a rebadged Malibu, a rental car mainstay.  The Regal, well truth be told already said it, a left over Saturn.  In 35 years, I'll be 70, then can consider a Grampy Buick or the Avalon, till then, senior Mr. O can be the 401 buyer.

 ::)
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Offline Jaeger

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Re: 2011 Toyota Avalon XLS; Day 1
« Reply #81 on: September 08, 2010, 12:31:50 pm »
I won't comment on the Buicks as I haven't driven them.  However, I suppose that 90%+ of the comments pertaining to the Avalon are from people that haven't driven it...
The number is probably 99.9%

That's probably true of this car and pretty much any car being reviewed.  But if comments were restricted only to those who have driven the car, there wouldn't be much discussion at all. James is a professional test driver - most of the rest of us aren't.  For what it's worth, I've been in the Lacrosse (looks good inside and out) and I've been a passender in the Avalon (very smooth, quiet and comfortable and quite Lexus-ish overall).

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Offline Spec5

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Re: 2011 Toyota Avalon XLS; Day 1
« Reply #82 on: September 08, 2010, 12:53:12 pm »

Ah yes, the old and time-honored brand heritage of the Hyundai Azera. Riiiight. How foolish of me. ::)   

You have a very short memory. But I can tell there is really no point in arguing with you.

Wow - are you my wife? You've got selective hearing just like she does.... Ok - save for the Azera.... ::)

Not even worth arguing with me?! Seriously I'm a little hurt by that... You could have at least pointed to Buick's increasingly strong reliability numbers over the past 3 years as Sir Osis has noted.
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Offline Dante

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Re: 2011 Toyota Avalon XLS; Day 1
« Reply #83 on: September 08, 2010, 01:14:02 pm »
... outright declaring the Regal, a failed saturn rebadge, a sports sedan able to compete with Acura, BMW and Audi is foolish and deceiving. 


As a takeaway from these discussions for "Truth be told" and "John", our venerable guests, the Regal IT IS NOT a Saturn rebadge as you repeatedly posted. It is an Opel Insignia rebadge, a brand new car launched in Europe as a 2009 model and awarded "2009 European Car of the Year" title.
The best part about this rebadge is that, despite previous failed GM "rebadge" attempts - Saturn Aura being one of them, this time around they've changed the car very little from its European version and the current cars are built in Germany along Opel Insignia. As mentioned before, only the base model is currently available in North America, with more models (two Turbo models, AWD, etc.) to be rolled out in the near future.

Back to Avalon now.

CatsEye68

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Re: 2011 Toyota Avalon XLS; Day 1
« Reply #84 on: September 08, 2010, 07:24:48 pm »
Wow - are you my wife? You've got selective hearing just like she does.... Ok - save for the Azera.... ::)

Not even worth arguing with me?! Seriously I'm a little hurt by that... You could have at least pointed to Buick's increasingly strong reliability numbers over the past 3 years as Sir Osis has noted.

Damned if I do, damned if I don't. Can't win 'em all, Ace.  :)

Truth be told

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Re: 2011 Toyota Avalon XLS; Day 1
« Reply #85 on: September 08, 2010, 07:45:19 pm »
... outright declaring the Regal, a failed saturn rebadge, a sports sedan able to compete with Acura, BMW and Audi is foolish and deceiving. 


As a takeaway from these discussions for "Truth be told" and "John", our venerable guests, the Regal IT IS NOT a Saturn rebadge as you repeatedly posted. It is an Opel Insignia rebadge, a brand new car launched in Europe as a 2009 model and awarded "2009 European Car of the Year" title.
The best part about this rebadge is that, despite previous failed GM "rebadge" attempts - Saturn Aura being one of them, this time around they've changed the car very little from its European version and the current cars are built in Germany along Opel Insignia. As mentioned before, only the base model is currently available in North America, with more models (two Turbo models, AWD, etc.) to be rolled out in the near future.

Back to Avalon now.

Unchanged Opel eh?   

About the Opel;
FORTUNE -- As General Motors gets ready to take its show on the road in support of its initial public offering after Election Day, one of its biggest question marks is the future of Opel and its European division.

It has been sucking money for two decades and has resisted GM's best efforts to resize its operations and pump some life into the brand.

The latest drag was announced in August when GM agreed to pay its European division employees up to $1.4 billion if the automaker fails to live up to its promise to revitalize Opel's product line by 2014. Earlier this year, GM was forced to invest $14 billion over five years to overhaul 80% of the unit's lineup.

People at GM's headquarters in Detroit must be scratching their heads at the decision last year to keep Opel after they spent six months trying to sell it. The European market has been a no-growth quagmire for years, and some observers see little room for Opel in it. It is squeezed in by a powerful Volkswagen from the top while fighting for room in the middle with Renault, Peugeot, Ford, and a resurgent Fiat.

Opel's decline continues. According to the Detroit News, the market share for Opel and its sister brand Vauxhall, sold in Great Britain, slid to 8.4% in the first half of 2010 from 8.9% in the same period a year earlier.

When GM filed for bankruptcy more than a year ago, it was negotiating with three potential Opel investors. On September 10, GM agreed to sell 55% of Opel to Magna, the big Canadian parts maker, and its Russian partner. The deal required the approval of the German government and would have kept Opel a fully-integrated part of GM's global product development organization.

But then on November 3, GM's board of directors suddenly and unexpectedly called off the Magna deal. The board reportedly questioned how GM could execute its global business plan without Opel and the rest of Europe.

Fritz Henderson, then GM's CEO, who had pushed to unload Opel, explained that Europe's business environment and GM's overall health had both improved in the preceding six months so a sale wasn't necessary.

It was an embarrassing reversal for Henderson, as the former head of GM Europe should have had the board on his side. A month later, he was out as CEO, and his about-face on Opel was a big reason. He clearly had gotten badly out of step with the directors and their chairman, Ed Whitacre.

Since then, nothing has gone right for Opel. Expensive government scrappage incentive programs are coming to an end, and analysts are slashing their European sales forecasts. And in June, Germany rejected GM's request for $1.3 billion in aid to restructure Opel.

Now GM now has to come up with $4 billion on its own for the restructuring -- in addition to the money it is spending on new models. The automaker is expected to cut 8,000 jobs in Europe, extract labor cost concessions from the existing workforce, and reduce its production capacity by 20%.

Some have argued that Opel is essential to GM because it provides engineering on passenger cars. Opel's Delta small car platform is the basis for the 2011 Chevy Cruze, and Opel's midsize platform underpins the Chevy Malibu. Under the skin of a 2011 Buick Regal is an Opel insignia.

But Europe has the worst growth prospects of any continent in the GM empire. Its costs remain stubbornly high and its unions resistant to any sort of change.

It makes more sense for GM to build up its engineering operations in China, as well as continue its successful small car venture with Daewoo than it does to continue to prop up its perennial money loser in Germany.

Any more slappies willing to jump into the boiling GM pot?  Ribbit.

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: 2011 Toyota Avalon XLS; Day 1
« Reply #86 on: September 08, 2010, 08:01:10 pm »

RED HERRING:

Similar in category, but with darker implications than ignoratio elenchi, a "red herring" is an answer, given in reply to a questioner, that goes beyond an innocent logical irrelevance. A "red herring" is a deliberate attempt to divert a process of enquiry by changing the subject.


The business case for or against Opel is completely irrelevant as to whether the Regal is derived from the Aura (it isn't), or if it is a good car or not, especially in a TOYOTA AVALON thread. Back under the bridge troll.

 :notroll:
« Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 08:08:20 pm by Sir Osis of Liver »

CatsEye68

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Re: 2011 Toyota Avalon XLS; Day 1
« Reply #87 on: September 08, 2010, 08:30:10 pm »
For god's sake Jaeger, er, Mr. Guest, this is not a Buick thread, it is a Toyota Avalon thread. Will you please cut it out? And let's retire your favorite pejorative term while you're at it.

Talk about obsessing... ::)

I hear Wing has a new tube of Loctite all ready to go.

Joe Consumer

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Re: 2011 Toyota Avalon XLS; Day 1
« Reply #88 on: September 08, 2010, 09:17:12 pm »
Geez!  What a debacle Opel has been to Detroit.  Seems the Buick brand will go the way of the dinosaur.  First to go was the Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer brands, and now the Opel/Buick is on it's last legs.  It explains the buick ridiculous price point, GM is probably merely trying to break even, seems like a losing battle, IMO.

On a positive note, at least Grampy will have the Toyota Buick-Avalon available to consider buying.  There, I mentioned the Buick-Avalon.  Happy slappies?

Offline Spec5

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Re: 2011 Toyota Avalon XLS; Day 1
« Reply #89 on: September 08, 2010, 09:20:38 pm »
Wow - are you my wife? You've got selective hearing just like she does.... Ok - save for the Azera.... ::)

Not even worth arguing with me?! Seriously I'm a little hurt by that... You could have at least pointed to Buick's increasingly strong reliability numbers over the past 3 years as Sir Osis has noted.

Damned if I do, damned if I don't. Can't win 'em all, Ace.  :)

 :cheers:

Offline Spec5

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Re: 2011 Toyota Avalon XLS; Day 1
« Reply #90 on: September 08, 2010, 09:27:29 pm »
Geez!  What a debacle Opel has been to Detroit.  Seems the Buick brand will go the way of the dinosaur.  First to go was the Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer brands, and now the Opel/Buick is on it's last legs.  It explains the buick ridiculous price point, GM is probably merely trying to break even, seems like a losing battle, IMO.

On a positive note, at least Grampy will have the Toyota Buick-Avalon available to consider buying.  There, I mentioned the Buick-Avalon.  Happy slappies?

Gee I guess nobody has been reading CatsEye and my exchange? As we've pointed out Buick is really the glimmer of hope in terms of reliability and customer satisfaction. Over the last couple of years they've consistently scored in the top 10 - probably one of the few good points for GM which is too bad because I need them to stick around long enough so I can pick up one of them Acadia/Enclave/Traverse's or else its minivandom! NNNNOoooooooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!

Offline Mozeby

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Re: 2011 Toyota Avalon XLS; Day 1
« Reply #91 on: September 09, 2010, 05:09:16 pm »
Geez!  What a debacle Opel has been to Detroit.  Seems the Buick brand will go the way of the dinosaur.  First to go was the Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer brands, and now the Opel/Buick is on it's last legs.  It explains the buick ridiculous price point, GM is probably merely trying to break even, seems like a losing battle, IMO.

On a positive note, at least Grampy will have the Toyota Buick-Avalon available to consider buying.  There, I mentioned the Buick-Avalon.  Happy slappies?

Schizo, which personality is it today?  Just write John and stick to it for once.  This is like the 7th bloody user name you've used in the last year.

CatsEye68

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Re: 2011 Toyota Avalon XLS; Day 1
« Reply #92 on: September 09, 2010, 06:11:53 pm »
Geez!  What a debacle Opel has been to Detroit.  Seems the Buick brand will go the way of the dinosaur.  First to go was the Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer brands, and now the Opel/Buick is on it's last legs.  It explains the buick ridiculous price point, GM is probably merely trying to break even, seems like a losing battle, IMO.

On a positive note, at least Grampy will have the Toyota Buick-Avalon available to consider buying.  There, I mentioned the Buick-Avalon.  Happy slappies?

Schizo, which personality is it today?  Just write John and stick to it for once.  This is like the 7th bloody user name you've used in the last year.

I'd be happy if he would just stick to "Jaeger" since that is what he is registered under.

Offline rrocket

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Re: 2011 Toyota Avalon XLS; Day 1
« Reply #93 on: September 09, 2010, 06:42:43 pm »
Geez!  What a debacle Opel has been to Detroit.  Seems the Buick brand will go the way of the dinosaur.  First to go was the Oldsmobile, Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer brands, and now the Opel/Buick is on it's last legs.  It explains the buick ridiculous price point, GM is probably merely trying to break even, seems like a losing battle, IMO.

On a positive note, at least Grampy will have the Toyota Buick-Avalon available to consider buying.  There, I mentioned the Buick-Avalon.  Happy slappies?

Schizo, which personality is it today?  Just write John and stick to it for once.  This is like the 7th bloody user name you've used in the last year.

I'd be happy if he would just stick to "Jaeger" since that is what he is registered under.

So does that mean you're going to change your name back to Greg?   ;D
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Offline Snowman

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Re: 2011 Toyota Avalon XLS; Day 1
« Reply #94 on: September 09, 2010, 10:43:26 pm »
 ::)  I am amazed on how these topics continue to deteriorate into mindless rating, belittling, and trolling. Is life that bad? go for a facking drive and remind yourselves why you are automotive enthusiasts....

Offline rrocket

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Re: 2011 Toyota Avalon XLS; Day 1
« Reply #95 on: September 09, 2010, 10:46:15 pm »
::)  I am amazed on how these topics continue to deteriorate into mindless rating, belittling, and trolling. Is life that bad? go for a facking drive and remind yourselves why you are automotive enthusiasts....

So what exactly did you just contribute to this thread???    :rofl2: :rofl2:


(Sorry...I couldn't resist!!) 

Offline ovr50

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Re: 2011 Toyota Avalon XLS; Day 1
« Reply #96 on: September 09, 2010, 11:52:04 pm »
I contributed to this thread early on; and I still agree with Snowman's post.
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Offline wing

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Re: 2011 Toyota Avalon XLS; Day 1
« Reply #97 on: September 11, 2010, 09:41:39 am »
Ugh, I am very sorry for not starting another blog this week.  I actually drove the ZDX which would have brought out a whole different argument.  Stay tuned next week for a new day by day.