Topic: 2011 Buick Regal CXL; Day 1

[Jaeger]

Regal CXL Turbo - start at $35K
G37 - start at $38.7K

Close enough IMO....

Unfortunately for Buick, not very close in power output.  If the power deficiency relative to the Sonata Turbo is troubling, relative to the beefy 3.7VQ, it is downright embarrasing.  If they offered the pretty much loaded up Turbo at $35k they might stand a chance at making inroads into the premium sports sedan (or whatever you want to call it) segment.  But when you have, essentially, no history in the segment it's kind of hard to take sales away from the established players if you are coming in at more or less the same price.  I am guessing (I don't pretend to know) that we will see some fully decked out Regal Turbos in the mid forties.  That is going to be a tough ask.  The right car at the wrong price is not a recipe for success.  Anyway, we'll know price when we know price.  There is certainly enough promise in the existing Regal that the power upgrade should net out to a very fine car indeed.

Jaeger

[toolatecrew]

While even a 220 hp 35K  Regal (or even 40 k loaded) might not be a competitor to a G37 it would certainly make a completting option to a 168 HP Volvo S40 Premium or even a 43 K S40 T5 (AWD)

I can say from past experience with a V50 that the 2.5i s40/s50 is boring. With the manual it was barley "adequate" the automatic we test drove was down right slow.

[dirtyjeffer]

The CXL Turbo, with Auto and loaded from the get go, is $35K. For under $40K you get HIDs, upgraded sound,adjustable suspension, etc. (things that you usually don't get in the mainstream cars or base on luxury cars).

My point is that the MSRP for the CXL Turbo puts in-line with the direct competitors, even a bit above IMO. Factor in some incentives after the first year or so and you can end up with a good car for a good price.

the CXL Turbo STARTS at $35k.

add the sunroof, and you are at $36,300.

add premium sound, rear seat airbags and Projector lamps and you are at $38,100.

get the top CXL Turbo with 1SP package (includes interactive drive control) and you are at $42,675.

good luck with that one.

[CatsEye68]

The CXL Turbo, with Auto and loaded from the get go, is $35K. For under $40K you get HIDs, upgraded sound,adjustable suspension, etc. (things that you usually don't get in the mainstream cars or base on luxury cars).

My point is that the MSRP for the CXL Turbo puts in-line with the direct competitors, even a bit above IMO. Factor in some incentives after the first year or so and you can end up with a good car for a good price.

the CXL Turbo STARTS at $35k.

add the sunroof, and you are at $36,300.

add premium sound, rear seat airbags and Projector lamps and you are at $38,100.

get the top CXL Turbo with 1SP package (includes interactive drive control) and you are at $42,675.

good luck with that one.

Sounds like one helluva car for the money.

[rrocket]

Sounds like one helluva car for the money.

 

[Sir Osis of Liver]

And here lies the problem. If the opinion expressed doesn't agree with your own, it's wrong and subject to denigration. This Buick, unlike the Avalon for instance, doesn't wallow in corners and can handle rapid transitions very well and completely unlike anything they produced in the past. It is completely unlike Grampa's Buick. The Avalon IS almost exactly like the traditional Buick. Tonnes of straight line speed, but massive understeer and on it's door handles in any sort of corner.

I never said the 128i or 135i are slow. I did say that using your criteria, they'd be considered dogs, because for the same money the Mustang GT demolishes them performance wise. Using more rational criteria, of course that isn't the case, and people buy cars that appeal to their own preferences, and there isn't anything wrong with that.

Neither the Avalon (strong engine, soft chassis) nor the Regal (good chassis, anemic engine) are sports sedans.  But only one of them is laughably pretending to be.

Grandpa, just be happy Buick makes a car for you - it's here now and ready for your sleepy Sunday cruise.  It won't EVER snap your head back and sprain your fragile neck. Buy one, it'll make you happy and make them happy. They have a model coming out that should appeal a bit more to actual enthusiasts - capable handling and enough motor to get out of its own way.  Don't hate us because we like that one better.

Feel free to have the last word on the subject, as you so desperately seem to need it.  I won't be responding to any more of YOUR posts on this thread going forward.

Jaeger

So in that regard, the Miata only became a sports car in 2005 when it got the 2.0. Prior to that, it had the handling, but not much straight line speed.

I guess some people do live a 1/4mile at a time.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

The CXL Turbo, with Auto and loaded from the get go, is $35K. For under $40K you get HIDs, upgraded sound,adjustable suspension, etc. (things that you usually don't get in the mainstream cars or base on luxury cars).

My point is that the MSRP for the CXL Turbo puts in-line with the direct competitors, even a bit above IMO. Factor in some incentives after the first year or so and you can end up with a good car for a good price.

the CXL Turbo STARTS at $35k.

add the sunroof, and you are at $36,300.

add premium sound, rear seat airbags and Projector lamps and you are at $38,100.

get the top CXL Turbo with 1SP package (includes interactive drive control) and you are at $42,675.

good luck with that one.

To be fair, a G37 with the same equipment (RWD Touring), looks to be just shy of $50k.

[TopGun]

So in that regard, the Miata only became a sports car in 2005 when it got the 2.0. Prior to that, it had the handling, but not much straight line speed.

I guess some people do live a 1/4mile at a time.

Lucky you quote him...else I'd never see his posts!  You're "these guys" worst nightmares Sir O...logical...and you can see right through their argument flips.

Good Chassis...Anemic Engine...I resemble that comment in the RX-8.  Sport sedan?  Hell ya.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

So in that regard, the Miata only became a sports car in 2005 when it got the 2.0. Prior to that, it had the handling, but not much straight line speed.

I guess some people do live a 1/4mile at a time.

Lucky you quote him...else I'd never see his posts!  You're "these guys" worst nightmares Sir O...logical...and you can see right through their argument flips.

Good Chassis...Anemic Engine...I resemble that comment in the RX-8.  Sport sedan?  Hell ya.

Yeah. The Grampa thing was kind of cute too. Him liking the Avalon and all and me just getting home from a ride on my FZ6!

[Jaeger]

The CXL Turbo, with Auto and loaded from the get go, is $35K. For under $40K you get HIDs, upgraded sound,adjustable suspension, etc. (things that you usually don't get in the mainstream cars or base on luxury cars).

My point is that the MSRP for the CXL Turbo puts in-line with the direct competitors, even a bit above IMO. Factor in some incentives after the first year or so and you can end up with a good car for a good price.

the CXL Turbo STARTS at $35k.

add the sunroof, and you are at $36,300.

add premium sound, rear seat airbags and Projector lamps and you are at $38,100.

get the top CXL Turbo with 1SP package (includes interactive drive control) and you are at $42,675.

good luck with that one.

Yeah - at that price I might be inclined to forego a few of the Buick's options for the extra 100 hp or so of the G37.  Buick is definitely counting on the grandpa effect working in their favor by puting forward models so drastically underpowered relative to their price and segment-based competition.  They have at least one geriatric convert here.  I hope for their sake they find more.

Jaeger

[Sir Osis of Liver]

 Buick is definitely counting on the grandpa effect working in their favor by puting forward models so drastically underpowered relative to their price and segment-based competition.  They have at least one geriatric convert here.  I hope for their sake they find more.

Jaeger

[dirtyjeffer]

So in that regard, the Miata only became a sports car in 2005 when it got the 2.0. Prior to that, it had the handling, but not much straight line speed.

I guess some people do live a 1/4mile at a time.

come on now, you're being silly.

the Miata (MX5) wasn't about raw power, it was about feel and finesse...it was also a Japanese take on the classic British roadster, which faded away into dust after the 80's...the Miata/MX5 is a lightweight, top down "fun car"...it was never sold as a competitor to a Mercedes SLK, or even a Sunbird Convertible...it was simply a fun little convertible...simple, nimble and affordable.

while the Regal might handle nicely, it isn't "inexpensive" (compared to what it competes against) and it certainly isn't a "sports sedan", which is how it is being marketed.

that is the point.

[dirtyjeffer]

To be fair, a G37 with the same equipment (RWD Touring), looks to be just shy of $50k.

sure, but if you are already at $43k, what's a few more?

also available in the low to mid $40k's:

Acura TL Tech Package - $43,500
G37 Touring - $43,400
Mercedes C300 Premium Package - $44,000
Ford Taurus SHO - $43,100

that's some pretty nice company, and i don't see the Regal Turbo really matching up against any of those cars.

as i said, the Regal is nice, but it just doesn't seem to be up to par in terms of what it is competing against...imagine if the Sonata were $10k more...we would say the same thing about it...the reason the Sonata gets such praise is the high level of quality and decent pricing...the TOP level Sonata is less money than the BASE level Regal...if the Regal was $10k less, i think everyone here would agree it was a decent car for the money, but where it is priced, it just doesn't seem to fit.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

So in that regard, the Miata only became a sports car in 2005 when it got the 2.0. Prior to that, it had the handling, but not much straight line speed.

I guess some people do live a 1/4mile at a time.

come on now, you're being silly.

the Miata (MX5) wasn't about raw power, it was about feel and finesse...it was also a Japanese take on the classic British roadster, which faded away into dust after the 80's...the Miata/MX5 is a lightweight, top down "fun car"...it was never sold as a competitor to a Mercedes SLK, or even a Sunbird Convertible...it was simply a fun little convertible...simple, nimble and affordable.

while the Regal might handle nicely, it isn't "inexpensive" (compared to what it competes against) and it certainly isn't a "sports sedan", which is how it is being marketed.

that is the point.

I drove it. It handles very well, and the ride/handling compromise of the normally aspirated version is pretty good. The body structure is very stiff and I like the interior very well. The engine is adequate and quite quiet.

I don't understand how the Miata, obviously a sports car, can be accepted as such without the straight line speed of an S2000 or Boxter, but when it comes to sports sedans, they have to be balls out?

I haven't driven the Sonata. I've looked around a couple. It's fine, but it doesn't do much for me for reasons I can't quite pin down. It doesn't seem to look as good in person as it did in pictures, but that's just a minor point. Manual transmission on the base version only pretty much disqualifies it for me and the Mrs.

As far as cost, everyone has their own perspective. My car has 170hp and pulls to 100km/hr in 9.5 seconds or so. It was fairly close to $35k new. Is it worth it? To me, yes, to others possibly not. I don't see the Buick being out of line. It comes with a lot of equipment standard, and it's only a couple of thousand more for the Turbo package.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

To be fair, a G37 with the same equipment (RWD Touring), looks to be just shy of $50k.

sure, but if you are already at $43k, what's a few more?

also available in the low to mid $40k's:

Acura TL Tech Package - $43,500
G37 Touring - $43,400
Mercedes C300 Premium Package - $44,000
Ford Taurus SHO - $43,100

that's some pretty nice company, and i don't see the Regal Turbo really matching up against any of those cars.

as i said, the Regal is nice, but it just doesn't seem to be up to par in terms of what it is competing against...imagine if the Sonata were $10k more...we would say the same thing about it...the reason the Sonata gets such praise is the high level of quality and decent pricing...the TOP level Sonata is less money than the BASE level Regal...if the Regal was $10k less, i think everyone here would agree it was a decent car for the money, but where it is priced, it just doesn't seem to fit.

You're right about the G37 Touring, Their calculator automatically added delivery and taxes. My mistake. Seems to be a nice car. I haven't driven a G37 so I can't comment.

I couldn't live with the TL on interior alone. I'd be very hesitant to get a Mercedes after all of the issues friends have had with them. The Taurus starts at $48k unless it's discounted now and it is a huge car, bigger that I typically get. There is also the BMW 328i, the Lincoln MKZ, the Avalon, the IS250, ES350, and Volvo S40 2.4i. Everyone has their idea of which one is best and not all of them are overtly sporty or necessarily quick.

I have no idea if the Regal will sell at all. I know I like it. I am waiting for the manual and Turbo. Hopefully they get it right. There is also the Regal GS which seems to have been approved. Rumours are 270hp. More than I need.

[Jaeger]

also available in the low to mid $40k's:

Acura TL Tech Package - $43,500
G37 Touring - $43,400
Mercedes C300 Premium Package - $44,000
Ford Taurus SHO - $43,100

that's some pretty nice company, and i don't see the Regal Turbo really matching up against any of those cars.

as i said, the Regal is nice, but it just doesn't seem to be up to par in terms of what it is competing against...imagine if the Sonata were $10k more...we would say the same thing about it...the reason the Sonata gets such praise is the high level of quality and decent pricing...the TOP level Sonata is less money than the BASE level Regal...if the Regal was $10k less, i think everyone here would agree it was a decent car for the money, but where it is priced, it just doesn't seem to fit.

Exactly correct, and exactly what I was referring to when I said the Turbo likely won't be price / performance competitive against established players.  GM has made it clear they want to (have to!) bring in new buyers with this sporty Buick.  To do that, they will have to take some sales away from established import competitors in the segment.  I can get why a G-37 intender may be swayed by a 335i or an IS350, or what have you, but I have a hard time conceiving, much less articulating, what pulls him away from the Infiniti dealer and has him signing on the dotted line for a shiny new Buick Regal Turbo.

The first hurdle he's going to have to cross, is that for the same money, that choice means giving up over a hundred horsepower. Now, the geriatric nannies will immediately start bleating about how power isn't everything - and that's certainly true in a very strict sense - but you can be sure that it's not nothing in the premium sports sedan segement, either.  And in this respect, even with the Turbo, Buick has still brought a knife to a gun fight.

But leaving aside the very obvious power deficit, what else does the Buick have to offer that makes it net out as superior to the G37?  Insert sounds of crickets chirping at dusk here.

Now, a loaded up Turbo at $35k might catch the buyer who's stretching to make budget on a G and sees the Buick as close enough for significanly less money.  But for the same money? No prayer.

Oh, and while not as sporty as the other offerings, add the Genesis Sedan to your list.  Attractively styled, luxuriously appointed, incredibly well reviewed, significantly more powerful and RWD.  Same money.

Jaeger

PS - Never let it be said that I disagree with Sir Grampy on everything - I would also take the Buick over the TL - but on the Exterior alone.  Those origami creases and that big brassy beak make me laugh every time I see one.

[Dante]

Exactly correct, and exactly what I was referring to when I said the Turbo likely won't be price / performance competitive against established players.  GM has made it clear they want to (have to!) bring in new buyers with this sporty Buick.  To do that, they will have to take some sales away from established import competitors in the segment. 

The Regal mainly competes with the Acura TSX (I4) and VW Passat and perhaps the 2.4L Volvo S60, not Infiniti, Lexus, MB, Audi, BMW. If you go by the price (loaded) relative to the next class up (or down), all the issues raised about Regal Turbo apply to those vehicles as well and they are inherent due to the limited price range the premium segment has.

If you don't go for the adjustable suspension option (unique to Regal) and only include the common sunroof, upgraded sound and HID available on the other two as well, the Regal Turbo (1SK Package) tops at $38K.
When you compare the feature list and powertrains with the respective Passat and TSX (I4), you'll see that the Regal Turbo compare favorable with those two.

$39K is where the luxury segment starts, which is where the loaded premium segment ends. Now, if you reached the top end of the mid-size premium sedan segment, indeed you might as well go for the entry-level luxury and dish out some more cash to add some options (you are spending your $39K now on better powertrains, better materials and fit and finish and not so much on the features).

[Jaeger]

The Regal mainly competes with the Acura TSX (I4) and VW Passat and perhaps the 2.4L Volvo S60, not Infiniti, Lexus, MB, Audi, BMW.....

That's what GM tells us, but they don't get to decide - customers do.  And the price of the loaded Turbo Regal puts it up against a broader range of segment competition than just two or three cars.  It's not hard to see why GM doesn't want comparisons drawn with Lexus, BMW and Infiniti - but hey, they set the price, they take the consequences.

Jaeger

[Dante]

The Regal mainly competes with the Acura TSX (I4) and VW Passat and perhaps the 2.4L Volvo S60, not Infiniti, Lexus, MB, Audi, BMW.....

That's what GM tells us, but they don't get to decide - customers do.  And the price of the loaded Turbo Regal puts it up against a broader range of segment competition than just two or three cars.  It's not hard to see why GM doesn't want comparisons drawn with Lexus, BMW and Infiniti - but hey, they set the price, they take the consequences.

Jaeger

This is actually my point of view.

As far as I'm concerned, the market is mainly divided in mainstream, premium/near-luxury and luxury segments.

Buick intends to play in the premium/near-luxury segment and my analysis of this particular car is based on this assumption. Other brands in this segment, from my perspective again, are: VW, Acura, Saab, Volvo, Lincoln.

Based on that, on my posts, I looked at this particular car form the perspective of the market segment it's in and its immediate competition.
Of course, there isn't a hard line between these segments and there is quite a bit of overlap between adjacent segments as well. The buyer decides in the end what car to buy based on his needs and likes.

This is a theoretical conversation after all, based on the paper numbers and such.

[Jaeger]

^^^ Fair enough. 

Jaeger