Topic: 2011 Buick Regal CXL; Day 1

[bikenut]

saturn was quite successful when it came out , it's down fall came when gm stopped backing it with money to let them improve and develop new products -- gm strangled it to death slowly through neglect until it wasn't viable anymore - not saturns fault - gms

if gm had focused on reliability and making competitive products like the japanese did
instead of making the cars that gm did ,they never would have needed any bail out money to begin with . gm dug its own grave , so did chyrsler , by making poor quality vehicles
 
ford was the only smart one to turn things around so well and so quickly

gm is turning out better products now , but it's a lesson that should have been learned along time ago , and it will take that much longer for the public to believe in american cars -- some people still would never consider buying a hyundai today because of past perceptions . i know if it wasn't for this latest gen of engines i never would consider buying one -- we , as a group are in the know -- we are not the general public whos views can be much different than ours and it will take them much longer to clue into any company now making good cars who didn't before - product helps , but if you have a stigma  against you the public is not so fickle to forget -- it will probably take 5 yrs before everyone gets over all the toyota recalls -- if product was all that was necessary hyundai would be no 1 in the next couple of years because of their new products but we well know thats not going to happen

[John]

Ummm...they are in financial difficulty.  GM really needed to secure ~$7 billion in aid from the Germany gov't, and they were turned down.  So they are on the brink.

My business model is better.  GM even thought it was a better idea to have a couple less brands in their line-up. (Saturn, Pontiac, etc..)

As I said...GM needs to focus on car, not on getting the public interested in a brand-new-to-the-USA nameplate. 

Yes, the perception of Buick will need to change. 

Let's see.......
So Opel wasn't selling well, not making a profit?  Turned down by the Europeans. Failed brand then, right?
So GM is in the same boat, not selling well, bloated, not making a profit, needed a bail out...equals Failed brand, right?
Marry up both failed brands (perceived or real)...AND, rebadge with the Buick stigma brand equals.....(drum roll)  you fill in the blank. 
Sorry, your services as a business manager will not be needed. 

Getting rid of the very well known Buick name and introducing the completely unknown Opel name would have been utterly stupid.

If you were my business manager.....You're so FIRED!   

[hemusbull]

It's a pointless comparison between Sonata and Buick here. But it doesn't matter for me, the only think which matters in long term are the sales. IMO, this Buick never will be successful in US and Canada in terms sales. It reminds me the "Caddy that sigs"  - Catera - another Opel clone  which never met sales targets. And there are more Opel clones and semiclones - Aura and even Saabs, all of them cars witout warm reception from buyers. Some of them, like this Buick here and the Saab are overpriced, some are alittle bit wrong products for NA market (like Aura) and all of them (excluding Buick, at least for now) are with reliability/quality issues. It's final time GM to discontinue rebdging/cloning and overpricing otherwise good cars from overseas!

[inco]

Ford is doing well with a mixture of new and old nameplates. The two that stayed the same - Mustang and F series - everything else is pretty new.

[Golly]

I sat in one and while it is a very attractive vehicle, a couple of irritants:
- like so many of today's cars, you can't see where the front and rear ends stop
- like so many of today's cars, the seats are SO hard; for years, automotive journalists complained that the domestics had too soft seats.  So now the domestics all have hard seats.  Well, I for one, prefer the softer seats that the domestics had circa 2000.
- as others have commented, the vehicle seems overpriced

[Jaeger]

Again, Hyundai has some better product, but some of you guys talk about Hyundai as if they're making the best cars in the world. They aren't. If it was all about product they still would not be number one.  

I'd love for you to point out where anyone has said - or even suggested - that Hyundai is making the best cars in the world.  I think that if anything, there is a backlash against the generally positive comments about Hyundai's newer products by those who, for whatever reason, just can't stand nice things being said about the brand.

Jaeger

[Jaeger]

I found James' comment on the "immense" trunk interesting.  Objectively, it's less spacious than the Sonata's.  Subjectively, I was looking at the thing wondering if I could fit two sets of golf clubs cross-ways inside the trunk.  My eyes said no.  The trunk seems deeper than wide - which isn't the most useful approach.

Jaeger

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Ummm...they are in financial difficulty.  GM really needed to secure ~$7 billion in aid from the Germany gov't, and they were turned down.  So they are on the brink.

My business model is better.  GM even thought it was a better idea to have a couple less brands in their line-up. (Saturn, Pontiac, etc..)

As I said...GM needs to focus on car, not on getting the public interested in a brand-new-to-the-USA nameplate. 

Yes, the perception of Buick will need to change. 

Let's see.......
So Opel wasn't selling well, not making a profit?  Turned down by the Europeans. Failed brand then, right?
So GM is in the same boat, not selling well, bloated, not making a profit, needed a bail out...equals Failed brand, right?
Marry up both failed brands (perceived or real)...AND, rebadge with the Buick stigma brand equals.....(drum roll)  you fill in the blank. 
Sorry, your services as a business manager will not be needed. 

Getting rid of the very well known Buick name and introducing the completely unknown Opel name would have been utterly stupid.

If you were my business manager.....You're so FIRED!   

As if I'd ever work for you!

You have no idea how expensive it is to launch a new brand.

Ford had an absolutely dismal reputation only a few years ago. Hyundai is another good example. New products, even if the name is old, can turn things around very quickly.

[bikenut]

hyundai's motors aren't out sourced, their current gen theta ll motors were a 44 month joint venture with mitsubishi and chrysler -- what makes these engines stand out to me is that they are direct injection motors , which so i've heard from this forum are expensive to make --  for subcompact cars for example .
 though other manufactures make direct injection motors too, none have trickled down to regular compact and subcompact cars , i am excluding any hybrids , if they have it
so what hyundai is doing is offering all direct injection models in all there up coming cars -- no one else is doing that now .
 hyundai has and is , beating everyone to the punch .
 as you know ,direct injection offers not only more hp but better fuel ecomomy as well . you add that by how well their cars are made now , the features they offer ,the value offered - and the cost , - to top it off ,they are now making them handle well .
-the up coming new accent and elantra will have those motors - no other car co. can make that claim about their subcompact and compact cars .
- to my mistake i already thought both the fiesta and yaris was direct injected because of their high mpg .

if other car makers could make cars with the same reliability , offering all the features , could handle ,offer direct injection in their entry level models at their price point ,i would be talking about them instead , but their aren't any , and thats my point .

hyundai has the japanese shaking in their boots , that's the reality .
 the only 2 things i can knock hyundai on is their engines don't sound like hondas when pushed , and maybe their powerbands could be more linear , those are small complaints to have compared to what else their cars have to offer over the competition  .

 of course you are free to buy more expensive cars that offer less value get worse fuel economy and , for the most part , less reliable , that is your right .

[Sir Osis of Liver]

^Some just might prefer another brand or dealer.

Direct injection has been around for a while. It's nice to see it being adopted, but Hyundai is at the end of a very long history. Earlier adoption was difficult due to high sulphur level in NA fuel.

During the late 1970s, the Ford Motor Company developed a stratified-charge engine they called "ProCo" (programmed combustion),[3][4] utilizing a unique high pressure pump and direct injectors. One hundred Crown Victoria cars were built at Ford's Atlanta Assembly in Hapeville, Georgia using a ProCo V8 engine. The project was canceled for several reasons: electronic controls, a key element, were in their infancy; pump and injector costs were extremely high; and lean combustion produced nitrogen oxides in excess of near future United States Environmental Protection Agency‎ (EPA) limits. The three-way catalytic converter proved to be a less expensive solution.

Later systems
In 1996 gasoline direct injection reappeared in the automotive market. Mitsubishi was the first with a GDI engine in the Japanese market with its Galant/Legnum's 4G93 1.8 L inline-four.[5] It was subsequently brought to Europe in 1997 in the Carisma,[6] although Europe's then high-sulphur unleaded fuel led to emissions problems, and fuel efficiency was less than expected.[7] It also developed the first six cylinder GDI powerplant, the 6G74 3.5 L V6, in 1997.[8] Mitsubishi applied this technology widely, producing over one million GDI engines in four families by 2001.[9]

In 1997 Nissan released the Leopard featuring the VQ30DD equipped with direct injection.[10]

In 1998, Toyota's D4 direct injection system first appeared on various Japanese market vehicles equipped with the SZ and NZ engines.[11][12][13] Toyota later introduced its D4 system to European markets with the 1AZ-FSE engine found in the 2001 Avensis.[14] and US markets in 2005 with the 3GR-FSE engine found in the Lexus GS 300. Toyota's 2GR-FSE V6 uses a more advanced direct injection system, which combines both direct and indirect injection using two fuel injectors per cylinder, a traditional port fuel injector (low pressure) and a direct fuel injector (high pressure) in a system known as D4-S.[15]

In 1999, Renault introduced the 2.0 IDE (Injection Direct Essence),[16] first on the Megane. Rather than following the lean burn approach, Renault's design uses high ratios of exhaust gas recirculation to improve economy at low engine loads, with direct injection allowing the fuel to be concentrated around the spark.[17] Later gasoline direct injection engines have been tuned and marketed for their high performance as well as increased fuel efficiency. PSA Peugeot Citroën, Hyundai and Volvo licensed Mitsubishi's GDI technology in 1999.[18][19] Although other companies have since developed gasoline direct injection engines, the acronym 'GDI' (with an uppercase final "I") remains a registered trademark of Mitsubishi Motors.[20]

In 2000, the Volkswagen Group introduced its gasoline direct injection engine in the Volkswagen Lupo, a 1.4 litre inline-four unit, under the product name "Fuel Stratified Injection" (FSI). The technology was adapted from Audi's Le Mans prototype race car R8. Volkswagen Group marques use direct injection in its 2.0 L FSI turbocharged and naturally-aspirated four-cylinder engines. Later, a 2.0 litre inline-four unit was introduced in the model year
2003 Audi A4. PSA Peugeot Citroën introduced its first GDi (HPi) engine in 2000 in the Citroën C5 and Peugeot 406. It was a 2.0-liter 16-valve EW10 D unit with 140 hp (104 kW), the system was licensed from Mitsubishi.[18]

In 2001, Ford introduced its first European Ford engine to use direct injection technology, badged SCi (Smart Charge injection) for Direct-Injection-Spark-Ignition (DISI).[21] The range will include some turbocharged derivatives, including the 1.1-litre, three-cylinder turbocharged unit showcased at the 2002 Geneva Show.[21] This new 1.8-litre Duratec SCi naturally aspirated engine made its production debut in the Ford Mondeo in 2003.[21]

In 2002, the Alfa Romeo 156 with a direct-injection engine, the JTS (Jet Thrust Stoichiometric) went on sale[22] and today the technology is used on almost every Alfa Romeo engine.

In 2003, BMW introduced a low-pressure gasoline direct injection N73 V12.[23] This initial BMW setup could not enter lean-burn mode, but the company introduced its second-generation High Precision Injection (HPI) system on the updated N52 straight-6 in 2006 which used high-pressure injectors.[24] This system surpasses many others with a wider envelope of lean-burn time, increasing overall efficiency.[25] PSA is cooperating with BMW on a new line of engines which made its first appearance in the 2007 MINI Cooper S. Honda released their own direct injection system on the Stream sold in Japan.[26] Honda's fuel injector is placed directly atop the cylinder at a 90 degree angle rather than a slanted angle.[26]

Since 2004, General Motors has released three such direct injected engines: in 2004, a 155 hp (116 kW) version of the 2.2 L Ecotec used in the Opel/Vauxhall Vectra and Signum in 2005, a 2.0 L turbocharged Ecotec for the new Opel GT, Pontiac Solstice GXP, and the Saturn Sky Red Line, in 2007 the same engine was used in the Super Sport versions of the Chevrolet Cobalt and the HHR. Also in 2007, the 3.6 L LLT became available in the redesigned Cadillac CTS and STS. The 3.6 L was added to the 2009 model GMC Acadia, Chevrolet Traverse, Saturn Outlook, Buick Enclave and the 2010 Chevy Camaro. In 2004 Isuzu produced the first GDi engine sold in a mainstream American vehicle, standard on the 2004 Axiom and optional on the 2004 Rodeo. Isuzu claimed the benefit of GDi is that the vaporizing fuel has a cooling effect, allowing a higher compression ratio (10.3:1 versus 9.1:1) that boosts output by 20 hp (15 kW), and that 0-to-60 mph times drop from 8.9 to just 7.5 seconds, with the quarter-mile being cut from 16.5 to 15.8 seconds.[27]

In 2005, Mazda began to use their own version of direct-injection in the Mazdaspeed6 and later on the CX-7 sport-utility, and the new Mazdaspeed3 in the US and European market. It is referred to as Direct Injection Spark Ignition (DISI).

In 2006, BMW released the new N54 twin-turbo-charged direct injection inline-six engine for its 335i Coupe and later for the 335i Sedan, 535i series and the 135i models.[28][29] Mercedes-Benz released its direct injection system (Charged Gasoline Injection, or "CGI") on the CLS 350 CGI featuring common rail, piezo-electric direct fuel injectors. The CLS 350 CGI offers 292 BHP versus 272 BHP for the CLS 350, with reduced carbon dioxide emissions and improved fuel economy.[30]

In 2007, Ford introduced its new Ford EcoBoost engine technology designed for a range of global vehicles (from small cars to large trucks). The engine first appeared in the 2007 Lincoln MKR Concept under the name TwinForce.[31] The new global EcoBoost family of 4-cylinder and 6-cylinder engines features turbocharging and direct injection technology (GTDI - Gasoline Turbocharged Direct Injection).[31] A 2.0-litre version was unveiled in the 2008 Ford Explorer America Concept.[31]

In 2008, BMW released the X6 xDrive50i equipped with a direct injected twin turbo N63 V8 engine.[32]

In 2009, Ferrari began selling the front-engine California with a direct injection system, and announced that its new 458 Italia car will also feature a direct injection system, a first for Ferrari mid-rear engine setups.[33] Porsche also began selling the 997 and Cayman equipped with direct injection. Ford produced the new generation Taurus SHO and Flex with a 3.5 L twin-turbo EcoBoost V-6 with direct injection.[34] Holden has also added two direct injection engines as standard on the V6 variant Commodore's under the name of SIDI or Spark Ignition Direct Injection.[citation needed] The Infiniti Essence concept car is powered by a direct injected twin turbo V6.[35] The Jaguar Land Rover AJ-V8 Gen III 5.0-litre engine (introduced in August 2009 for the 2010 model year) features spray-guided direct injection.

In 2010 Infiniti will produce the M56 which includes DI.[citation needed]

Also in 2010: Motus Motorcycles is developing, with Katech Engines, a direct-injected V4 engine named the KMV4 as the powertrain for their MST motorcycles. [36]

2010: Hyundai Sonata 2011 model will come with GDI engines. Hyundai's Theta I-4 engine family is a proprietary design, engineered in Namyang, Korea and currently in production for applications all over the world at volumes exceeding 2 million annually. The new Theta II 2.4L GDI engine is a derivative of the Theta with major upgrades in technology and architecture. It features a unique block, valvetrain, front end accessory drive (FEAD), intake manifold, pistons, rods, crankshaft, variable induction system and catalyst. http://www.autoblog.com/2009/11/23/hyundais-new-2-4l-gdi-four-cylinder-hits-up-to-200hp-in-sonata/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_direct_injection

[bikenut]

i agree , i'd prefer a bmw or porsche myself , or to really spoil myself for a really good looking car , an aston martin vanquish to cruise in will do , don't know what their dealers are like .

i read about di years ago and wondered then why there wasn't more cars using it - now i know why , thanks

[Erik]

Thanks Sir O. Great read.

[dirtyjeffer]

2010: Hyundai Sonata 2011 model will come with GDI engines. Hyundai's Theta I-4 engine family is a proprietary design, engineered in Namyang, Korea and currently in production for applications all over the world at volumes exceeding 2 million annually. The new Theta II 2.4L GDI engine is a derivative of the Theta with major upgrades in technology and architecture. It features a unique block, valvetrain, front end accessory drive (FEAD), intake manifold, pistons, rods, crankshaft, variable induction system and catalyst. http://www.autoblog.com/2009/11/23/hyundais-new-2-4l-gdi-four-cylinder-hits-up-to-200hp-in-sonata/[/i]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gasoline_direct_injection

thanks for the info (although, i already knew Hyundai was part of the Mits/Hyundai/Chrysler combo).

also, the new 6 speed automatic transmission is a new unit designed completely in house.

and i don't think anyone is saying Hyundai is the best thing since sliced bread...i think it is important for people to consider all their options and not let any preconceived notions (or thoughts of the "Pony") come back and prevent them from considering a brand that has come a LONG way in the last 10+ years (especially the last 5 years).

some other fun things to look forward to:

-the new Elantra is a great looking car with an awesome looking interior as well.
-the new 2.0T engine coming out later this year uses regular pump gas...no Premium fuel required...it also only loses 1MPG fuel economy despite its large power output increase.

and for what it's worth, the 2.4L engine in the Hyundai uses a timing chain.

[diceman]

Who besides me has driven a Sonata??? The Malibu's 4cyl stomps it for refinement, why would you want to compare it to the Regal? I have driven them all, have you ?  For the money the Malibu is the best.

[rrocket]

Who besides me has driven a Sonata??? The Malibu's 4cyl stomps it for refinement, why would you want to compare it to the Regal? I have driven them all, have you ?  For the money the Malibu is the best.

Jeager has IIRC...And someone on here just bought one...

[diceman]

Who besides me has driven a Sonata??? The Malibu's 4cyl stomps it for refinement, why would you want to compare it to the Regal? I have driven them all, have you ?  For the money the Malibu is the best.

Jeager has IIRC...And someone on here just bought one...

that's good, it;s a nice car. After driving them I was surprised how much nicer the Malibu drove.

[Jaeger]

Jeager has IIRC...And someone on here just bought one...

Correct.    Yes, the Buick 4 cylinder is more refined - at least in the sense that it is quieter than the Sonata mill.  The Buick does a better job at isolating both road and engine noise from the driver.  And given that it is considerably more expensive than a comparably equipped Sonata, it should. BUT....

1) The Buick makes less power, and
2) The Buick has much more weight to motivate, so that leads inevitably to...
3) The Buick feels far less responsive to throttle input, and...
4) The Buick gets worse fuel economy

I sure don't view the Buick as "the best" in any unqualified sense, though it does have its strengths.  I found the chassis / suspension to be very appealing - a slightly softened Germanic balance.

Also, while generally very quiet, that 4-pot in the Buick does get moany when worked hard.  And in anything resembling spirited driving, it's working real hard all the time to drag all that pork around behind it.  It's quiteness advantage is significantly diminished in the very context that Buick says this car is made for.

Jaeger

[rrocket]

Jeager has IIRC...And someone on here just bought one...

Correct.    Yes, the Buick 4 cylinder is more refined - at least in the sense that it is quieter than the Sonata mill.  The Buick does a better job at isolating both road and engine noise from the driver.  And given that it is considerably more expensive than a comparably equipped Sonata, it should. BUT....

1) The Buick makes less power, and
2) The Buick has much more weight to motivate, so that leads inevitably to...
3) The Buick feels far less responsive to throttle input, and...
4) The Buick gets worse fuel economy

I sure don't view the Buick as "the best" in any unqualified sense, though it does have its strengths.  I found the chassis / suspension to be very appealing - a slightly softened Germanic balance.

Also, while generally very quiet, that 4-pot in the Buick does get moany when worked hard.  And in anything resembling spirited driving, it's working real hard all the time to drag all that pork around behind it.  It's quiteness advantage is significantly diminished in the very context that Buick says this car is made for.

Jaeger

Do you think the Sonata is better than the Malibu?

[diceman]

Jeager has IIRC...And someone on here just bought one...

Correct.    Yes, the Buick 4 cylinder is more refined - at least in the sense that it is quieter than the Sonata mill.  The Buick does a better job at isolating both road and engine noise from the driver.  And given that it is considerably more expensive than a comparably equipped Sonata, it should. BUT....

1) The Buick makes less power, and
2) The Buick has much more weight to motivate, so that leads inevitably to...
3) The Buick feels far less responsive to throttle input, and...
4) The Buick gets worse fuel economy

I sure don't view the Buick as "the best" in any unqualified sense, though it does have its strengths.  I found the chassis / suspension to be very appealing - a slightly softened Germanic balance.

Also, while generally very quiet, that 4-pot in the Buick does get moany when worked hard.  And in anything resembling spirited driving, it's working real hard all the time to drag all that pork around behind it.  It's quiteness advantage is significantly diminished in the very context that Buick says this car is made for.

Jaeger

Do you think the Sonata is better than the Malibu?

The Sonata is not all that quiet to begin with, and the buick weighs the same as the Malibu. however i find the Regal grossly overpriced for what engine they offer. The turbo should be the standard engine .

[Jaeger]

Do you think the Sonata is better than the Malibu?

I haven't driven the Malibu, but based on a comparison of comparably equipped normally aspirated models, I would pick the Sonata over the Regal straight-up independent of price.  And of course, the price difference is substantial -in the Sonata's favour.  The Buick is a solid effort, but on my plus / minus list there are a bunch more plusses on the Sonata side.

Now, a 6-speed manual Buick Turbo versus an auto Sonata Turbo?  I'll reserve judgment on that until I have driven both of those.  Since the Buick's biggest disappointment rests under the hood, a healthy bump in horsepower and en even healthier bump in torque should help considerably.  But of course, it might well be priced deep into Hyundai Genesis territory...

Jaeger