Topic: First Drive: 2011 Honda CR-Z

[footlong58]

The Echo hatchback at just over 2100 lb was a light car, now that was a fun car to drive despite the piddly 108 HP. The new light is probably the Mazda 2 at just over 2,300 lb. 2,800 lb is not light, but given the batteries, I never expected it to be in the first place.

I think really we can blame government regulations for the new overweight generation of vehicles.

Partially, yes... But blame the consumer.  We want lots of airbags, we want thick glass and lots of sound deadening for quite rides, we want big big big rims for looks, and we want top quality materials for the interior, we want lots room inside for all our stuff and ourselves, etc...

The companies are just giving us what we want, as consumers.  If Honda re released the original CRX as is, people would be stupified.  Where is the sophistication?  Where is the safety?  What is the door like a piece of tin?  It's too small, I can't fit inside, I'm too fat...  WHAT, only 14" rims? etc....

[bikenut]

you do realize that bountiful torgue , which would normally exist with an electric motor is only 128 ft lbs of torque in the crz ( this is not bountiful )
believe me honda has always made good driver cars , more than you can say for toyota
honda has gone back to the drawing board again for a 2nd time for the next gen civic delaying its release a year and are also working on much better hybrid systems as well
as for as the velostar goes , it might not be here but since hp for a 1.6 is rated at 140 , beating the feista , its a good start , even the hyundai sonatas 198 hp beats its competitors
but as far as how much torgue the velostar will have i have no idea - engines might just be good on paper but then their is the the turbo 200 hp 1.6 velostar which will definiately wake things up if the 140 fails to inspire , hyundai is cutting weight out of their cars , the sonata is the lightest midsize sedan - hopefully the velostar will follow suit ( over 40 mpg onthe highway)
time will tell , but as of now , the velostar looks more promising than anything else coming down the pike in the next year - though the high mileage claims of the upcoming  hybrid fit and hybrid yaris look interesting  - if they can keep the weight down and torque up

[johngenx]

Bikenut - your shift key and period keys are broken, please have repairs made to dramatically improve the readability of your posts.

As for Toyota not having, nor ever made, "good driver" cars, you're mistaken.  They have a long history of making great "good driver" cars.  Unfortunately, their current line forces you to spend quite a bit, with the Lexus line currently offering their most exciting cars.  The IS350 must be driven to appreciate.  It's a severely underrated car.

[bikenut]

re celicas , mr2's ,supras etc , these are the exceptions ,  but as a general rule toyota does not make drivers cars , never has ( i'll work on my commas and periods but i never capitalize )
ask anyone who has driven a yaris , corrolla or camry after just getting out of a fit , civic or accord

[bikenut]

i forgot to include the i.s. 350 .

the i.s . line is lexus performance line , so it should handle as best as toyota can make it do so,
its up against bmw's
i believe you when you say its a sweet ride -- words to that effect

i would have been referring to the standard 350 lexus if i had included lexus in my original post

 the i.s. should be competing against  amg  or  m series
personnally i've always liked the twin turbo in the 3 series -- you should take one of those for a spin

[rrocket]

i forgot to include the i.s. 350 .

the i.s . line is lexus performance line , so it should handle as best as toyota can make it do so,
its up against bmw's
i believe you when you say its a sweet ride -- words to that effect

i would have been referring to the standard 350 lexus if i had included lexus in my original post

the i.s. should be competing against  amg  or  m series
personnally i've always liked the twin turbo in the 3 series -- you should take one of those for a spin

That would be the IS-F.

[johngenx]

ask anyone who has driven a yaris , corrolla or camry after just getting out of a fit , civic or accord

Actually, I have.  When we bought the Corolla, we looked at many other products, and honestly, the Civic and Fit are highly overrated by Honda enthusiasts in an effort to convince themselves that they don't really just own another FWD understeer-mobile.  I've owned many cars that have superb chassis', and I find all the FWD compact/sub-compact cars uninspiring and lacking balance.  Sure, there are some subtle differences, but otherwise they're all just 65F/35R distribution machines that are either scrubbing the sidewalls off the front tires or suffering from "who cares?" trailing throttle oversteer, barely.

There are some FWD cars that can be driven quick and offer a rewarding experience, including the Mazda Speed-3 and VW GTI, but they are much more expensive and in the case of the 3, still suffer from torque steer.

[normancw]

I like it - hopefully Honda will come out with an Si version next year.

Besides the S2000, my favourite Hondas/Acuras are from the late 80s: the CRX, Civic, Accord, Prelude, Integra, and NSX were quite different, advanced and fun:  

• double wishbone front suspensions allowed for very low Ferrari-like hoodlines and best-in-class FWD handling
• excellent manual transmissions
• thin window pillars provided excellent visibility
• high revving DOHC VTEC engines

Since then, Honda has lost/diluted these qualities and others have surpassed them.  Specifically, I think Honda has fallen behind without any RWD cars - practically every other major manufacturer offers one or more RWD cars.  Many enthusiasts will only consider RWD or AWD - SH-AWD is nice, but is a $5000 option on the Acura TL.

[Flinter]

This car is growing on me the more I read about it. I think Honda deserves credit for bringing it to market. They also deserve a thumbs up for doing the engineering work to offer the 6spd manual with the IMA hybrid system.

I'd love to drive one sometime and see how it feels. In many ways it is the modern interpretation of the CRX. I should be happy... but I can't help think about a sans-hybrid version with the terrific 2.0L from the Civic SI.

[bikenut]

re honda -- i was disappointed when they stopped using double wishbone suspension , and went for the cheaper present set up

corrolla man - to each his own -- if its a 2010 don't read the lemonade guide

[bikenut]

johngenx , i must say i haven't driven a corrolla , but have read up on them
its just not my cup of tea , i'm glad you like yours , i was basing my opinion on videos like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKr5R6JLqk8

[rrocket]

johngenx , i must say i haven't driven a corrolla , but have read up on them
its just not my cup of tea , i'm glad you like yours , i was basing my opinion on videos like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tKr5R6JLqk8

What are you driving these day?  As in...what's your current cup of tea?

[johngenx]

I didn't say there weren't differences between the different cars, but they're marginal.  Also, even the best compact/sub-compact is still a bland tire-scrubber.  Hey, it's possible to have some fun with them, but people seem to think those cars rival chassis' like the BMW 1 and 3, Honda S2K, Mazda Miata.  Not even close.

[bikenut]

rocket , i drive a 2006 mazda 3 gt sedan with the 2.3 but want to get something with better gas mileage ,though i was aware of the gas mileage before buying ,it was simply more fun to drive over the base motor.
 thats why the velostar tweeks my interest , even the turbo  will probably get better mileage - might even get a hybrid , if the fusion came in a sporty compact or subcompact i'd be delighted because the fusion hybrid can go 75 k per hr before the gas kicks in , might even consider an electric in 2012 if they can keep the weight down and make it sporty enough ,
 nissan is considering making a sportscar based on its leaf and honda will have plug in hybrids by 2012 -
but it all depends if they can keep the weight down - but i'll wait till 2012 before buying ,just too much good stuff coming out then to buy before

[Erik]

ask anyone who has driven a yaris , corrolla or camry after just getting out of a fit , civic or accord

Actually, I have.  When we bought the Corolla, we looked at many other products, and honestly, the Civic and Fit are highly overrated by Honda enthusiasts in an effort to convince themselves that they don't really just own another FWD understeer-mobile.  I've owned many cars that have superb chassis', and I find all the FWD compact/sub-compact cars uninspiring and lacking balance.  Sure, there are some subtle differences, but otherwise they're all just 65F/35R distribution machines that are either scrubbing the sidewalls off the front tires or suffering from "who cares?" trailing throttle oversteer, barely.

There are some FWD cars that can be driven quick and offer a rewarding experience, including the Mazda Speed-3 and VW GTI, but they are much more expensive and in the case of the 3, still suffer from torque steer.

Or arguably the best handling of them all, the Cobalt SS. Available for a steal at $23K.

Just drove a 2010 Civic 5 speed and found it to be lots of fun. Was hoping to drive the Si, but those are like hens teeth.

The 2010 GTI had no noticeable torque steer. At least nothing that was an issue at all.

[johngenx]

The 2010 GTI had no noticeable torque steer. At least nothing that was an issue at all.

The GTI is right at the edge of how much power can be sent through the front wheels.  The Speed3 has way more power, and torque steers like mad.  Sure, the car is a demon that can make some serious speed (hence the name?) and handles better most any FWD car (save perhaps the GTI) but I'd much rather have a 270hp AWD or RWD car, thanks.

The main problem with all FWD designs is the transverse orientation of the engine and location of the transmission.  It means they're all stupidly front heavy.  The basic cars (Civic, Corolla, etc) have soft suspensions and they're tuned for safe, predictable understeer.  When pushed, they all become limp-wristed ninnies that don't respond to throttle steering at all other than dramatic drop-throttle oversteer, which is not "control."  Steering feedback, in all of them, sucks thanks to the fact that all the power is being directed through the same wheels you're trying to steer with.

But, the FWD designs are cheap to make, offer safe and predictable handling for the commuter crowd, and plain work in the economy segments.  And driving one at low speeds well back from the limits of even their economy tires, and they could be "sort of fun."  Really get to the limits of the tires and chassis, and I just don't find them fun at all.  Drive a well sorted out RWD car and the differences are not subtle, but dramatic.  The Hyundai Genesis Coupe is a prime example.  The 2.0T is not a terribly powerful car in the world of performance cars, but the chassis is set up for spirited driving.  The front wheels do nothing but steer, and the car is fun to drive.  It feels nothing like a FWD economy car, but is priced like one!!

Sure, there are some performance oriented FWD cars (Speed3, Cobalt SS, GTI) but they're a small portion of the compact segment, and are not even a blip on the sales charts.  The majority of Civics sold are the non-Si models with soft suspensions and uninspiring FWD understeer.  The Honda Fit feels like a wobbly shopping cart to me when you push it hard through an off-ramp.  Maybe somewhat better than a Corolla (which has an even softer tune) but anyone that thinks their Fit is a "great handling" car hasn't driven a great handling car, or can't tell the difference anyway.  That said, I love the Fit.  Great package, but c'mon, it's not constantly begging to be taken to a road-course and wrung out.

[tpl]

^^ I agree

To me the Fit handles just like the early '60s FWD cars with their primitive tires.  The difference being that those cars with their non-powered steering you always knew that you were running up against the tires traction limits... now it can be difficult to tell until you are actually in terminal understeer.

Hmmmm the last pure RWD car I owned was a TR7 in 1978 for a few years. My BMW always put 30% of its power through the front but at least it was fairly well balanced ( 52/48 IIRC)

[rrocket]

rrocket, i was directly comparing the crz with the up and coming veloster.   this hybrid system really makes little sense if it isn't going to lift it's mileage way beyond a normally aspirated car's.  hyundai's veloster is going to have more hp and better mileage while sparing us the BS hybrid system.   i just don't understand honda's decisions lately.  it seems they are playing follow the leader now. they could have put their 2.2l diesel in the crz and got better mileage. 

As with my old Insight, the "real world" figures blow the EPA numbers out of the water.  When I was so inclined, I could get my economy down into the mid 2s to mid 3s.  Since this car uses pretty much the same system, I'm guessing you'll see some pretty impressive economy numbers...if you aren't driving the car like you've stolen it...

[bikenut]

those are all nice cars but for the twisties i'd take jcw mini cooper for a fwd , that would be alot more fun
you didn't mention lotus elise for rear wheel drive , another great car for the twisties

you guys are off the mark when bringing up the honda fit
in 2007 driving television did extensive comparo of all the subcompact cars at the time .
the honda fit was everyones favorite for alot of reasons , one of which it drove most like a sportscar , ( the feista actually handles a little better with alot less body roll ) but this was back in 2007 , comparing it to its subcompact competition  the fit did more than just fine -- remember , this is an economy car . how can you expect it to be some race car handling champ fwd car , when talking best handling front wheel drive cars , i'm sure honda would feel flattered that their cheapest car , got included in your dicussion

[johngenx]

...one of which it drove most like a sportscar , ( the feista actually handles a little better with alot less body roll ) but this was back in 2007 , comparing it to its subcompact competition  the fit did more than just fine -- remember , this is an economy car...

Which is like "the ugly girl that looks most like a supermodel."  Sure, among the compact econo cars, the Fit is probably near the top, but that seems to mean to lots of people that it's a demon handling car.  It's not.

...remember , this is an economy car . how can you expect it to be some race car handling champ fwd car , when talking best handling front wheel drive cars...

Exactly.  In the class, the Fit is fine, but the entire class is made up of FWD cars that are not great handling cars in the scheme of what a great handling car is.  But, hey I don't expect a $20K FWD econo Fit to even come close to a $40K+ BMW 135i or other great car.