Author Topic: First Drive: 2011 Ford Fiesta  (Read 71577 times)

Offline bridgecity

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Re: First Drive: 2011 Ford Fiesta
« Reply #120 on: May 03, 2010, 11:29:01 pm »
How expensive is a new timing chain (and supporting equipment if necessary)?  If it lasts twice as long as a belt but costs twice as much, it's not much of a gain of anything besides convenience.

(I'm not saying it's twice as expensive per km, I'm asking.  I genuinely don't know).

Think of the timing chain as part of the inside of an engine, bathed and cooled by engine oil.  As long as you keep up with oil changes and general maintenance, they should in fact last the lifetime of the engine.  The timing belts are parts outside the engine and have an expiration date, thus must be replaced, in some interference engines, if it breaks, you now have severe engine damage.  Non-interference engines, at the very minimum, you may end up just stranded.  Hopefully, not your aging parents or children at night.  Even if it the belt by a miracle does not break, you can bet the belt has stretched and cause the engine to run rough. Some people may claim it only cost so much little for their 626 timing belt.  Hogwash.....There are bearings in the idler and tensioners, and water pump, those do not last a lifetime, they fail for obvious reasons.  And there are the Crankshaft, camshaft and oil pump seals that are made of rubber that become hard and shrink and leak.   By not replacing the idlers, water pump, and oil seals you run the high risk of premature timing belt failure.  Idler bearings will seize and break you new timing belt, water coolant and oil leaks will contaminate the timing belt and, well, break the timing belt.  Bottom line, who needs the added expense, being stranded, and possible engine damage done by a broken timing belt. 

Yup, idlers, water pump, and seals need to be replaced, but not every 100k like you claim.  And no, not all t-belts cost $1000 to swap out.  The 3.5 in my Honda cost $350 (no idler, tensioner, or water pump, not necessary at 100k).  I really don't see t-belts as a deal breaker at all.  Ya, I would prefer a chain, but having a t-belt is not going to factor into my decision.
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Re: First Drive: 2011 Ford Fiesta
« Reply #121 on: May 04, 2010, 07:44:43 pm »
How expensive is a new timing chain (and supporting equipment if necessary)?  If it lasts twice as long as a belt but costs twice as much, it's not much of a gain of anything besides convenience.

(I'm not saying it's twice as expensive per km, I'm asking.  I genuinely don't know).

Think of the timing chain as part of the inside of an engine, bathed and cooled by engine oil.  As long as you keep up with oil changes and general maintenance, they should in fact last the lifetime of the engine.  The timing belts are parts outside the engine and have an expiration date, thus must be replaced, in some interference engines, if it breaks, you now have severe engine damage.  Non-interference engines, at the very minimum, you may end up just stranded.  Hopefully, not your aging parents or children at night.  Even if it the belt by a miracle does not break, you can bet the belt has stretched and cause the engine to run rough. Some people may claim it only cost so much little for their 626 timing belt.  Hogwash.....There are bearings in the idler and tensioners, and water pump, those do not last a lifetime, they fail for obvious reasons.  And there are the Crankshaft, camshaft and oil pump seals that are made of rubber that become hard and shrink and leak.   By not replacing the idlers, water pump, and oil seals you run the high risk of premature timing belt failure.  Idler bearings will seize and break you new timing belt, water coolant and oil leaks will contaminate the timing belt and, well, break the timing belt.  Bottom line, who needs the added expense, being stranded, and possible engine damage done by a broken timing belt. 

Yup, idlers, water pump, and seals need to be replaced, but not every 100k like you claim.  And no, not all t-belts cost $1000 to swap out.  The 3.5 in my Honda cost $350 (no idler, tensioner, or water pump, not necessary at 100k).  I really don't see t-belts as a deal breaker at all.  Ya, I would prefer a chain, but having a t-belt is not going to factor into my decision.

Sorry, but you must be a mechanic that's looking for work.  How can anybody argue that bearings in the idlers and water pump, and critical oil seals do not wear out and should not be changed at 100K miles.  Wow, oil seals are made of rubber that gets exposed to 190 degree heat.....Open up any auto repair manuel and read it, find out for yourself.   Depending on the car, for OEM parts, you will spend $400-600 in parts and labor $400-600. 

Here's the highly likely above scenarios for the Honda (interference engine?), replace the timing belt and labor and nothing else.  30-50K miles later, 1)water pump fails, owner could not see the leaking pump since it is inside the timing belt cover.  Overheated engine, blown head gaskets, $2K to repair.  2)oil seals fail, contaminate timing belt, belt prematurely breaks, back to square one, replace belt and seals, interference engine, $2K.  Seized idler bearings, timing belt breaks, back to square one, everyone get the picture.

TIMING BELTS = DEAL BREAKER.

Offline Rupert

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Re: First Drive: 2011 Ford Fiesta
« Reply #122 on: May 04, 2010, 08:12:24 pm »
I don't know where the idea came from that timing belts are old technology. It's timing chains that are old technology and they were around long before belts. They now seem to be making a comeback which is all to the good. As I said before, belts can be good for long life if used properly and the right ones are chosen. Not good if they break on an interference engine.

Offline bridgecity

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Re: First Drive: 2011 Ford Fiesta
« Reply #123 on: May 04, 2010, 08:23:11 pm »
How expensive is a new timing chain (and supporting equipment if necessary)?  If it lasts twice as long as a belt but costs twice as much, it's not much of a gain of anything besides convenience.

(I'm not saying it's twice as expensive per km, I'm asking.  I genuinely don't know).

Think of the timing chain as part of the inside of an engine, bathed and cooled by engine oil.  As long as you keep up with oil changes and general maintenance, they should in fact last the lifetime of the engine.  The timing belts are parts outside the engine and have an expiration date, thus must be replaced, in some interference engines, if it breaks, you now have severe engine damage.  Non-interference engines, at the very minimum, you may end up just stranded.  Hopefully, not your aging parents or children at night.  Even if it the belt by a miracle does not break, you can bet the belt has stretched and cause the engine to run rough. Some people may claim it only cost so much little for their 626 timing belt.  Hogwash.....There are bearings in the idler and tensioners, and water pump, those do not last a lifetime, they fail for obvious reasons.  And there are the Crankshaft, camshaft and oil pump seals that are made of rubber that become hard and shrink and leak.   By not replacing the idlers, water pump, and oil seals you run the high risk of premature timing belt failure.  Idler bearings will seize and break you new timing belt, water coolant and oil leaks will contaminate the timing belt and, well, break the timing belt.  Bottom line, who needs the added expense, being stranded, and possible engine damage done by a broken timing belt. 

Yup, idlers, water pump, and seals need to be replaced, but not every 100k like you claim.  And no, not all t-belts cost $1000 to swap out.  The 3.5 in my Honda cost $350 (no idler, tensioner, or water pump, not necessary at 100k).  I really don't see t-belts as a deal breaker at all.  Ya, I would prefer a chain, but having a t-belt is not going to factor into my decision.

Sorry, but you must be a mechanic that's looking for work.  How can anybody argue that bearings in the idlers and water pump, and critical oil seals do not wear out and should not be changed at 100K miles.  Wow, oil seals are made of rubber that gets exposed to 190 degree heat.....Open up any auto repair manuel and read it, find out for yourself.   Depending on the car, for OEM parts, you will spend $400-600 in parts and labor $400-600. 

Here's the highly likely above scenarios for the Honda (interference engine?), replace the timing belt and labor and nothing else.  30-50K miles later, 1)water pump fails, owner could not see the leaking pump since it is inside the timing belt cover.  Overheated engine, blown head gaskets, $2K to repair.  2)oil seals fail, contaminate timing belt, belt prematurely breaks, back to square one, replace belt and seals, interference engine, $2K.  Seized idler bearings, timing belt breaks, back to square one, everyone get the picture.

TIMING BELTS = DEAL BREAKER.

Mechanic? Nope.  Miles? Frig, I thought we were in Canada.  I missed your reference to miles on the previous page.  Still, my view remains.  A timing belt at the first 100K KM is not a deal breaker for me.  Pretty minor.

Edit:  I should add, that a lot of areas of Canada you can go 160K km before a t-belt change.  Lets assume even with water pump, seals (cheap), tensioner, idler pulley, water pump the average job will be $1000.  That works out to 0.625 cents/km. 
« Last Edit: May 04, 2010, 08:32:45 pm by bordercity »

John Doe

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Re: First Drive: 2011 Ford Fiesta
« Reply #124 on: May 04, 2010, 10:55:00 pm »
How expensive is a new timing chain (and supporting equipment if necessary)?  If it lasts twice as long as a belt but costs twice as much, it's not much of a gain of anything besides convenience.

(I'm not saying it's twice as expensive per km, I'm asking.  I genuinely don't know).

Think of the timing chain as part of the inside of an engine, bathed and cooled by engine oil.  As long as you keep up with oil changes and general maintenance, they should in fact last the lifetime of the engine.  The timing belts are parts outside the engine and have an expiration date, thus must be replaced, in some interference engines, if it breaks, you now have severe engine damage.  Non-interference engines, at the very minimum, you may end up just stranded.  Hopefully, not your aging parents or children at night.  Even if it the belt by a miracle does not break, you can bet the belt has stretched and cause the engine to run rough. Some people may claim it only cost so much little for their 626 timing belt.  Hogwash.....There are bearings in the idler and tensioners, and water pump, those do not last a lifetime, they fail for obvious reasons.  And there are the Crankshaft, camshaft and oil pump seals that are made of rubber that become hard and shrink and leak.   By not replacing the idlers, water pump, and oil seals you run the high risk of premature timing belt failure.  Idler bearings will seize and break you new timing belt, water coolant and oil leaks will contaminate the timing belt and, well, break the timing belt.  Bottom line, who needs the added expense, being stranded, and possible engine damage done by a broken timing belt. 

Yup, idlers, water pump, and seals need to be replaced, but not every 100k like you claim.  And no, not all t-belts cost $1000 to swap out.  The 3.5 in my Honda cost $350 (no idler, tensioner, or water pump, not necessary at 100k).  I really don't see t-belts as a deal breaker at all.  Ya, I would prefer a chain, but having a t-belt is not going to factor into my decision.

Sorry, but you must be a mechanic that's looking for work.  How can anybody argue that bearings in the idlers and water pump, and critical oil seals do not wear out and should not be changed at 100K miles.  Wow, oil seals are made of rubber that gets exposed to 190 degree heat.....Open up any auto repair manuel and read it, find out for yourself.   Depending on the car, for OEM parts, you will spend $400-600 in parts and labor $400-600. 

Here's the highly likely above scenarios for the Honda (interference engine?), replace the timing belt and labor and nothing else.  30-50K miles later, 1)water pump fails, owner could not see the leaking pump since it is inside the timing belt cover.  Overheated engine, blown head gaskets, $2K to repair.  2)oil seals fail, contaminate timing belt, belt prematurely breaks, back to square one, replace belt and seals, interference engine, $2K.  Seized idler bearings, timing belt breaks, back to square one, everyone get the picture.

TIMING BELTS = DEAL BREAKER.

Mechanic? Nope.  Miles? Frig, I thought we were in Canada.  I missed your reference to miles on the previous page.  Still, my view remains.  A timing belt at the first 100K KM is not a deal breaker for me.  Pretty minor.

Edit:  I should add, that a lot of areas of Canada you can go 160K km before a t-belt change.  Lets assume even with water pump, seals (cheap), tensioner, idler pulley, water pump the average job will be $1000.  That works out to 0.625 cents/km. 

So you rather throw away $1K for a timing belt breakdown and forced to deal with the added aggravation of a mandatory repair........ :think:  On the positive side, parts suppliers and mechanics need to get paid, good for the economy eh?  :idea:

Offline bridgecity

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Re: First Drive: 2011 Ford Fiesta
« Reply #125 on: May 04, 2010, 11:01:06 pm »

So you rather throw away $1K for a timing belt breakdown and forced to deal with the added aggravation of a mandatory repair........ :think:  On the positive side, parts suppliers and mechanics need to get paid, good for the economy eh?  :idea:

Johnny, if you read my posts, I said I'd prefer a chain, but a belt is not going to be a deal breaker for me. And I stress, FOR ME.   ;)

Back to the fantastic new Ford Fiesta...


John Doe

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Re: First Drive: 2011 Ford Fiesta
« Reply #126 on: May 04, 2010, 11:21:41 pm »
I don't know where the idea came from that timing belts are old technology. It's timing chains that are old technology and they were around long before belts. They now seem to be making a comeback which is all to the good. As I said before, belts can be good for long life if used properly and the right ones are chosen. Not good if they break on an interference engine.

Timing belts have been phased out due to inherent durability problems.  Most if not all carmakers are aware of this issue and have return back to the metal timing chain.  I disagree with the "used properly" and the right one chosen claim, timing belts are encased in a plastic housing and do not require any special use or care and are out of view of the owner.  So is the water pump, oil seals, and tensioner bearings, so when they fail, they tend to be an unexpected event.  Thus replacing all other timing belt components is highly recommended by all mechanics when replacing the timing belt.  Do not confuse the timing belt with accessory drive belts, which owners can visually and physically inspect and replace cheaply.

Look, when an automaker introduces a 2010 model with a timing belt it will create great controversy with those who know about the true cost of a timing belt job.  Most automakers returned back to the timing chain 8-10 years ago.

Informed consumers look at a mandatory timing belt replacement as something we do not want or need.  A timing belt is in fact a deal breaker for most.


Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: First Drive: 2011 Ford Fiesta
« Reply #127 on: May 04, 2010, 11:46:19 pm »
I've had a number of cars with timing belts and never had reliability issues. I changed just the belt and maybe an idler at the recommended interval.  It never, ever came remotely close to $1000, $300-400 seemed to be fairly typical. I let my Escort GT go until it broke, mostly because I was curious to see just how long it would last (turns out 180,000km), $300 dollars installed at a dealer. I sold the car with approximately 300000km on it, still with the second belt. (I did tell the buyer it's condition, for a $1k car he didn't care.)

The change intervals used to lower, most are now in the 120000km range. The typical Canadian car will last 250000km before it's scrapped. For the majority that means one belt change, BFD.

I did have to replace a bad chain tensioner on my old Toyota pickup. So they're not all peaches and cream either. I can tell you it's easier to get to a cam belt than a timing chain.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2010, 11:50:30 pm by Sir Osis of Liver »
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Offline Erik

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Re: First Drive: 2011 Ford Fiesta
« Reply #128 on: May 05, 2010, 12:10:38 am »
Yup, I have had a  number of cars with chains that have been stretched, and sold a bunch of replacement chains when I was in the business. The big advantage of a tired chain over a tired belt is that if the belt brakes you, at best, walk home. If a chain goes bad, usually all it does is stretch and slowly retard the timing.
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Offline bridgecity

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Re: First Drive: 2011 Ford Fiesta
« Reply #129 on: May 05, 2010, 12:14:58 am »
 A timing belt is in fact a deal breaker for most.

I doubt it.  Most consumers wouldn't even know the difference, or wouldn't even know to ask. 

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: First Drive: 2011 Ford Fiesta
« Reply #130 on: May 05, 2010, 12:20:40 am »
 A timing belt is in fact a deal breaker for most.

I doubt it.  Most consumers wouldn't even know the difference, or wouldn't even know to ask. 

God that's true. Eighty percent of BMW 1 series owners thought their car was FWD!

http://www.automotiveaddicts.com/10223/80-percent-of-bmw-1-series-owners-think-it-is-front-wheel-drive

Offline MKII

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Re: First Drive: 2011 Ford Fiesta
« Reply #131 on: May 06, 2010, 02:47:38 pm »
some nice pics showing the interior ambient lighting in the N.A. Fiesta
http://www.flickr.com/photos/mooncricketfilms/sets/72157623957250302/show/






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Re: First Drive: 2011 Ford Fiesta
« Reply #132 on: May 06, 2010, 02:48:17 pm »
Looks like an Alienware laptop.

Offline MKII

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Re: First Drive: 2011 Ford Fiesta
« Reply #133 on: May 06, 2010, 03:01:38 pm »
check some the video/commericals on this site http://www.fordvehicles.com/cars/fiesta/experiencefiesta/?vid=0002&filter=

using some of the Fiestamovement agents

Offline wing

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Re: First Drive: 2011 Ford Fiesta
« Reply #134 on: May 06, 2010, 03:03:38 pm »
Oh they have it online now.  That Lambo one is hilarious!

The interior lighting puts some "luxury" vehicles to shame.... ahem Genesis Ahem.

Offline sirAQUAMAN64

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Re: First Drive: 2011 Ford Fiesta
« Reply #135 on: May 06, 2010, 03:13:59 pm »
AQUAMAN64 also posts on DriverBlogs.com!

Offline Jaeger

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Re: First Drive: 2011 Ford Fiesta
« Reply #136 on: May 06, 2010, 03:43:40 pm »
And they say disco is dead.  :)




Yep, some real ambiance happening there. 


Jaeger
« Last Edit: May 06, 2010, 04:49:47 pm by Jaeger »
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Re: First Drive: 2011 Ford Fiesta
« Reply #137 on: May 06, 2010, 03:56:27 pm »
And they say disco is dead.  :)

Jaeger

Clearly you've never heard of raves before  ;)

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Re: First Drive: 2011 Ford Fiesta
« Reply #138 on: May 06, 2010, 04:25:38 pm »
..this is yer pilot speaking we will be landing in VEGAS momentarily please put yer wallets in an upright position.........................KOLORFUL STUFF...........Cinqo De MAYO & FRIES good.......
Time is to stop everything happening at once

Offline johngenx

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Re: First Drive: 2011 Ford Fiesta
« Reply #139 on: May 06, 2010, 06:33:29 pm »
check some the video/commericals on this site http://www.fordvehicles.com/cars/fiesta/experiencefiesta/?vid=0002&filter=

using some of the Fiestamovement agents

Someone at Ford hired the right ad person.  Those are good, really good.  The bears from the Civic to the Fiesta one is hilarious.