Topic: First Drive: 2011 Ford Fiesta

[RacerStu]

I see Ford is making the same mistake as the Mazda 3 did in Canada, not offering the hatchback in the lower model line. Mazda soon realized their error and now offer a hatchback in base form. In Mazda 3's first few years you had to buy the 2.3 GT to get the hatch.

You can't buy the Fiesta hatchback without air conditioning, power door locks, power mirrors and host of other trinkets, like you can the sedan. The model I'd want is a base 5-door hatchback without all the doodads for about $13,700, which would undercut the Honda Fit and Toyota Yaris. Currently the cheapest Fiesta hatch is $16,800...I'd go for a Civic at that price.

[wing]

But the civic isn't a hatch either....

[MKII]

maybe he is importing one 

[MKII]

Vid from the SFO Fiesta media event
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seuTYcqOx2o

 in-car demo of Fiesta's TeleNav turn-by-turn navigation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdLRJ_7ylPc&feature=player_embedded#!

Mobile cloud computing with Microsoft Tellme in the 2011 Ford Fiesta
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zna9ICd8Uss&feature=related

Suspension and tire tech talk with Han Kim, Ford Fiesta driving dynamics engineer
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1A_63IQ18c&feature=related

[John Doe]

Also the Fiesta comes with some craptastic tires, put on some stickies and things may be different!

If a company is going to cut corners to make a price point, I'm glad they do it on tires.  Nothing on a car is easier and cheaper to upgrade than tires.

It also seems Ford cut more corners, the engine still uses a timing belt.  
TIMING BELTS are DEAL BREAKERS.  Send this car back.

[Rupert]

I don't like timing belts either and if the engine is an interference one it could be a game over scenario. However there are good belts and the Polychain GT geared toothed belt is just such a case. The old 2.6 Trooper had one of these and I actually followed the mainetenance instructions and changed it at the milage specified...I think about 130000km. What a waste of effort...there was no wear on it...as good as new. I kept it as a spare and let it go with the trade. Other belts...well I don't know...hmmm.

[Mitlov]

It also seems Ford cut more corners, the engine still uses a timing belt.  
TIMING BELTS are DEAL BREAKERS.  Send this car back.

I have never even considered the timing belt versus timing chain issue until I saw it come up repeatedly on this forum, generally with the sentiment that timing belts are ridiculous old technologies like hand-crank ignitions and that any company that uses them should be shamed in the public square.

So I looked around on teh interwebz to see if I could figure out why a company would use what some consider to be a totally inferior, dated timing mechanism.  What I found was:

(1)  Although Honda and Toyota owners rail against timing belts the most, those companies used them well into this decade, including on the Civic and Tundra.  I'm not sure if any current designs from those companies still use them, but it's not exactly a technology they abandoned decades ago.

(2)  Although a timing belt does require more long-term maintenance than a timing chain (it requires changing every 100,000 to 150,000 km instead of every 400,000 km or so), it does bring other advantages to the table.  It's more energy-efficient, quieter, and lighter (not just the belt itself, but the support structure can be lighter, and it doesn't require lubrication, so there doesn't need to be a mechanism for that).

I'm certainly not saying "a timing belt is superior in every application, full stop," but I'm not sure that the general consensus on this forum that "a timing chain is superior in every application, full stop" is right either.  On an agile, sporty B-segment car with class-leading quietness, I can understand why Ford went with the lighter, more efficient, quieter option instead of the longer-lasting option.

[quadzilla]

It also seems Ford cut more corners, the engine still uses a timing belt.  
TIMING BELTS are DEAL BREAKERS.  Send this car back.

But isn't there an accessory belt inside the engine also? How about brakes? Oil changes? You have to change those things also.

Considering most timing belts get changed every 4-5 years at 120,000 kms, is it really that big of a deal?

[Sir Osis of Liver]

My Escort GT had a belt and non-interference engine. I drove it until the belt broke at 200K. $300 for the dealer to change it, and I was back on the road.

200K is about ten years for a typical Canadian driver. The recommended interval would have worked out to 5 years.

Never really considered it a big deal either way.

[No H2O]

IMO, Ford is going to sell a ton of these here in NA!!

Too bad we can't get them with the 1.8 L diesel that is in a 10 year old Ford that I drove in Italy.

[No H2O]

I see those there all the time. Its unfortunate that Honda Canada has very poor taste...as they are not importing it.

Another nice car that I saw in Germany last year was the new VW Scirocco.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

That Civic hatch really doesn't work for me style wise.

[Vanster]

In my case anyway, not having a costly timing belt replacement to look forward to is something I would see as an advantage. Designing an engine with a timing belt these days seems like a throwback, since practically none of the manufacturers are doing it anymore, having gone to chains.

[Jaeger]

Kenzie liked it overall, but was underwhelmed by the DSG tranny and disappointed in the uber-hyped SYNC system:

http://www.wheels.ca/Reviews/article/785669

I certainly can't agree with his view that that push-button starters are "stupid".  Having lived with one for several years I wouldn't want to do without it and now find the old "insert key and crank" deal decidedly archaic.  Not having to actually have your key in hand when opening the door or strating the engine is a conmvenience that quickly spoils you.

The one thing that continues to impress me with the reviews is that this seems to be a really good handling little car.

Jaeger

[John Doe]

It also seems Ford cut more corners, the engine still uses a timing belt.  
TIMING BELTS are DEAL BREAKERS.  Send this car back.

I have never even considered the timing belt versus timing chain issue until I saw it come up repeatedly on this forum, generally with the sentiment that timing belts are ridiculous old technologies like hand-crank ignitions and that any company that uses them should be shamed in the public square.

So I looked around on teh interwebz to see if I could figure out why a company would use what some consider to be a totally inferior, dated timing mechanism.  What I found was:

(1)  Although Honda and Toyota owners rail against timing belts the most, those companies used them well into this decade, including on the Civic and Tundra.  I'm not sure if any current designs from those companies still use them, but it's not exactly a technology they abandoned decades ago.

(2)  Although a timing belt does require more long-term maintenance than a timing chain (it requires changing every 100,000 to 150,000 km instead of every 400,000 km or so), it does bring other advantages to the table.  It's more energy-efficient, quieter, and lighter (not just the belt itself, but the support structure can be lighter, and it doesn't require lubrication, so there doesn't need to be a mechanism for that).

I'm certainly not saying "a timing belt is superior in every application, full stop," but I'm not sure that the general consensus on this forum that "a timing chain is superior in every application, full stop" is right either.  On an agile, sporty B-segment car with class-leading quietness, I can understand why Ford went with the lighter, more efficient, quieter option instead of the longer-lasting option.

Agreed, the timing belt is not superior over the chain.  As far as the belt timing belt being quieter, not true today.  Timing belts have a scheduled life expectancy, 60K to 90K.  Most people drive about 20K miles a year, we can all do the math here.

Timing belts themselves are not expensive, about $60 to $90. What is expensive are the "other parts" that need to be replaced along with the belt.
Timing belt idler (s),Timing belt tensioner, Oil seals (many),Water pump and seals(highly recommended), coolant, etc.. AND labor costs. 

Timing chains do not have a replacement schedule. Timing belts do, every 3-4 years be ready to fork out $1000 to 1,500.  No thanks.

[johngenx]

Many makes now have timing belt intervals that are well over 100K.  Subaru is at 168K.  My boxer Subaru is one of the most expensive timing belt bills around, as the boxer engine has two belts and access to the front of the engine is very labour intensive.  $1000 is an outside number for the Scoob, and gets there is if you're anal like me and replace everything possible while you're in there.  (Coolant pump, tensioner, pulleys, etc)  $1000 every 6-7 years is not unreasonable.

Many FWD inline engine cars don't cost anywhere near that.  The 2.2L engine in our Mazda 626 had a belt, and a fairly short 100K interval, but the $220 for P/L was no big deal.

Timing chains do wear out, and do need replacing.  Depending on the configuration of the engine, intervals can be as short as 160K, as long as 400K.  An OHC V-8 has very long chains with lots of direction changes, and chains on those engines are not very long lived.  Inline engines tend to have short chains with no direction changes, and with care, can last a long time.  Most chains are bathed in engine oil now, and their longevity depends greatly on how often the engine oil and filter are changed.

[safristi]

..why can't they make a belt from TEFLON_UNOBTANIUM that goes like 500K with nary a squeak or rattle or drum and the folks will be happy all the days of their ownership......QUIT USING "used" KNICKER ELASTIC in these things called Timing belts....my belts last longer than 10 years....other than the Tequila shots..............


 sons Passat wagon 1.8T cost $1,000 when all was said and DONE !!!! @ 140K.....

[Mitlov]

How expensive is a new timing chain (and supporting equipment if necessary)?  If it lasts twice as long as a belt but costs twice as much, it's not much of a gain of anything besides convenience.

(I'm not saying it's twice as expensive per km, I'm asking.  I genuinely don't know).

[wing]

You never change them, unless they explode, but then well you change your engine too haha.  A chain should last the life of the engine / car.

[john doe]

How expensive is a new timing chain (and supporting equipment if necessary)?  If it lasts twice as long as a belt but costs twice as much, it's not much of a gain of anything besides convenience.

(I'm not saying it's twice as expensive per km, I'm asking.  I genuinely don't know).

Think of the timing chain as part of the inside of an engine, bathed and cooled by engine oil.  As long as you keep up with oil changes and general maintenance, they should in fact last the lifetime of the engine.  The timing belts are parts outside the engine and have an expiration date, thus must be replaced, in some interference engines, if it breaks, you now have severe engine damage.  Non-interference engines, at the very minimum, you may end up just stranded.  Hopefully, not your aging parents or children at night.  Even if it the belt by a miracle does not break, you can bet the belt has stretched and cause the engine to run rough. Some people may claim it only cost so much little for their 626 timing belt.  Hogwash.....There are bearings in the idler and tensioners, and water pump, those do not last a lifetime, they fail for obvious reasons.  And there are the Crankshaft, camshaft and oil pump seals that are made of rubber that become hard and shrink and leak.   By not replacing the idlers, water pump, and oil seals you run the high risk of premature timing belt failure.  Idler bearings will seize and break you new timing belt, water coolant and oil leaks will contaminate the timing belt and, well, break the timing belt.  Bottom line, who needs the added expense, being stranded, and possible engine damage done by a broken timing belt.