Topic: Inside Story: 2010 Hyundai Genesis 4.6

[Erik]

If you ever get to take a look at mens fashion magazines from the 30's (the golden age of mens fashion), you will find that brands get very little discussion, while quality and construction and materials get a lot. Branding, as it is done now, is a pretty new thing.

I never had opportunities to look at men's fashion magazines from 30's..  let alone this millennium.   GQ's or Maxim looks more like collection of ad's than collection of articles.

but yes, I do get your point now.    Branding IS a fairly recent thing, in the grand scheme of things, but that was a ground-breaking marketing stuff back then right?   it worked originally because it made shopping a simpler task.

People recognized and associated certain brand with quality, so you wouldn't have to actually worry about construction and material.    like caterpillar gears.  because of branding, you would almost instinctively KNOW it's good for field work. (or something..  i don't own any caterpillar...)   or Sony in the 70's and 80's.

Luxury branding, on the other hand, is really an illusion.    Yes, quality and construction may be paramount( patek philip or rolex ) but most lux brands are just for show.    take Gucci plastic bracelet for example. it doesn't provide any significance on material, technology or quality.. or arguably even fashion.... just a name stamped on something made in china..  with exorbitant price.

Hyundai Genesis is really different though.  because It's actually functional.  it doesn't have a lux name brand cachet, but it does everything a lexus might do, better and/or cheaper..    Like No name HDMI cable vs Monster cable. 

Your point that Hyundai lacking lux cachet working against it is very valid point, but
some people(most likely sensible ones) may actually like that.

Great post!

[Erik]

What is so wrong to accept the fact that the Genesis is a nameplate under Hyundai brand and because of that it cannot be a luxury car? It was Hyundai's choice to market the car this way.

This is Hyundai's flagship car and like any other manufacturer it is the showcase for the brand's capabilities and their best car. Any flagship car from any manufacturer that has one (e.g. Nissan Maxima, Ford Taurus, Toyota Avalon) has a lot of luxury features, the best powertrains, best interiors etc. without being called a "luxury" car. I fail to see what’s different in this case?

Hyundai came up with a great flagship car, most likely better than any other flagship car in the mainstream, but it's still a Hyundai and nothing more.

Well I guess the people buying them don't agree with you, since ~40% of the buyers are coming from established luxury brands Lexus, Porsche, MB and BMW.  Yes...I'll find the link shortly. 


"Ewanick also said that 90 percent of all Genesis buyers are new Hyundai customers, and 40 percent of buyers traded in Lexus, BMW, Mercedes or Porsche vehicles."

http://rumors.automobilemag.com/6391244/news/2009-hyundai-genesis-sales-on-target/index.html

Well, not a huge surprise that. I can't imagine that they would be doing much with the car if they were relying totally on upsells from previous Accent owners.

[Jaeger]

What is so wrong to accept the fact that the Genesis is a nameplate under Hyundai brand and because of that it cannot be a luxury car? It was Hyundai's choice to market the car this way.

This is Hyundai's flagship car and like any other manufacturer it is the showcase for the brand's capabilities and their best car. Any flagship car from any manufacturer that has one (e.g. Nissan Maxima, Ford Taurus, Toyota Avalon) has a lot of luxury features, the best powertrains, best interiors etc. without being called a "luxury" car. I fail to see what’s different in this case?

Hyundai came up with a great flagship car, most likely better than any other flagship car in the mainstream, but it's still a Hyundai and nothing more.

Well I guess the people buying them don't agree with you, since ~40% of the buyers are coming from established luxury brands Lexus, Porsche, MB and BMW.  Yes...I'll find the link shortly. 


"Ewanick also said that 90 percent of all Genesis buyers are new Hyundai customers, and 40 percent of buyers traded in Lexus, BMW, Mercedes or Porsche vehicles."

http://rumors.automobilemag.com/6391244/news/2009-hyundai-genesis-sales-on-target/index.html

Well, not a huge surprise that. I can't imagine that they would be doing much with the car if they were relying totally on upsells from previous Accent owners.

I think this was addressing the assertion that the Genesis wouldn't appeal to luxury car buyers because "it's just a Hyundai" and not marketed under a separate luxury brand.  If owners of existing luxury brands are replacing their vehicles with the Genesis, that suggests that at least some luxury buyers are looking at the vehicle itself, not the marketing apparatus under which it is sold.

Jaeger

[Dante]

For me, one of the differences between luxury and faux-luxury is the difference between real wood and woodgrain trim or silver painted plastic and aluminum trim.

I don't like fake wood either.  That said, Acura uses fake wood and both BMW and Mercedes use fake leather.  Lexus uses plenty of silver-painted plastic.  Just for the record.

That's true for their respective basic entry level models. The real stuff is an option on those too in most of the cases.
However, the 5 Series, A6, Lexus GS (don't know about E Class) don't seem to have any fake stuff in them at any point.

[Erik]

Those who are deriding Hyundai -- have you been in a dealership lately?  I haven't in almost a year -- but when I was, the sales experience was refreshing.  The salesperson I had the pleasure of dealing with was enthusiastic, professional, knowledgeable and helpful.  I wish I could say the same for the experiences I've had in Honda, Mazda and Nissan (Infiniti too!) dealers in the past year which seem to have picked up the slimeball sales forces who lost their jobs when AMC went under.  

The difference in cost (and presumably the 'snack bracket' ) between an IS250 and an LS600h is far, far greater than the difference between an Accent and a Genesis.  Do LS buyers hang their heads in shame because they have to be served in a dealership that also sells lowly IS250s to the masses?  Is Infiniti considered a luxury brand?  The three different Infiniti dealerships I've been in have all had shared showrooms with Nissan.  Eww... Sentra owners.... how low brow!  

Worst of all though... when I take my BMW into the local dealership, I have to drive into the same service bay as those urban hippies driving MINIs!  The horror!  What would my peers say if they saw me slumming like that?!  

When Lexus was introduced, it didn't have any cachet with the valets either.  When people started realizing the product was world class, the reputation followed suit in short order.  The respect for Hyundai's brand may not be there yet, but there's definite truth in the the "Smart is in" slogan Hyundai is touting and more and more people are going to buy into it.  

My last experience in a Hyundai dealership was last summer when I tried the Genesis Coupe. The sales experience was at least as disappointing as the car was. Seemed staffed by people who were a week away (in either direction) from selling washing machines at Future Shop.

Lexus did so well because they started a whole new sales and service approach, plus they launched what was unarguably at the time about as good a luxury car as anyone made. The first LS 400 was an incredible car, impeccably engineered and built to a much higher standard than I think anyone else was at the time. If I remember correctly, Toyota spent over a Billion 1980's dollars developing it, and in the first year, it was the sales leader in it's class. It was truly one of the last lifetime cars ever made (ie. buy it and drive it for the rest of your life). At $35,000 US list price, I am willing to bet that Toyota/Lexus lost money on each and every one, but they entered the market with a huge bang, and totally changed the luxury car market altogether.

The other thing they did totally right was the entire sales/service experience. You have not had your ass properly kissed until it has been kissed by a Lexus dealer. You almost want to buy one just so you can bring it in and get your latest dose of Lexus luvin. Owning any Lexus is a special experience from a sales/service perspective, and that is one of the reasons why Lexus has done so well and keeps doing so well.

I don't think anyone is saying that the Genesis Sedan is a poor car. It actually seems to be pretty damn nice, and competitively priced, offering lots of value for the money. However, it is NOT the second coming of Lexus and it is not the car to redefine the class. It has also been a sales disappointment for Hyundai (though not as much as the coupe.), so I wonder what they will do in the future and how long they will keep supporting it, before moving it either up or downmarket.

As an aside, the most popular mod on the Genesis forums is removing the Hyundai badge and replacing it with the KDM Genesis wings.

[Dante]

Carcrazy it doesn't matter what you consider your opinion of a luxury car is, nor does it matter what your opinion of brand marketing is, or interior fineness.  What does matter is that you've already stated on another thread (and it's painfully obvious) that you are biased against Hyundai.  So all your bleating in this thread holds no weight.

Of course it's OK for everyone to have differeing opinions, but don't pretend that you're talking about the car on it's merits, 'cos you're not.

 

Bob, what is painfully obvious is that you did not read my other post carefully. I did not "stated" that I'm "biased against Hyundai" and for the record I'm not at all.
Now, this post is about the car not me so can we keep it that way?

[Triple Bob]

Carcrazy it doesn't matter what you consider your opinion of a luxury car is, nor does it matter what your opinion of brand marketing is, or interior fineness.  What does matter is that you've already stated on another thread (and it's painfully obvious) that you are biased against Hyundai.  So all your bleating in this thread holds no weight.

Of course it's OK for everyone to have differeing opinions, but don't pretend that you're talking about the car on it's merits, 'cos you're not.

 

Bob, what is painfully obvious is that you did not read my other post carefully. I did not "stated" that I'm "biased against Hyundai" and for the record I'm not at all.
Now, this post is about the car not me so can we keep it that way?

For the record, you are.  You will continue to argue against them even when there is nothing left to say objectively, which is fine, I just wish you'd admit it.

Like Mitlov's point about the use of faux leather in both BMW's and Mercedes' cars, are they now not luxury cars because they do something like Hyundai?

[Jaeger]

Carcrazy it doesn't matter what you consider your opinion of a luxury car is, nor does it matter what your opinion of brand marketing is, or interior fineness.  What does matter is that you've already stated on another thread (and it's painfully obvious) that you are biased against Hyundai.  So all your bleating in this thread holds no weight.

Of course it's OK for everyone to have differeing opinions, but don't pretend that you're talking about the car on it's merits, 'cos you're not.

 

Bob, what is painfully obvious is that you did not read my other post carefully. I did not "stated" that I'm "biased against Hyundai" and for the record I'm not at all.
Now, this post is about the car not me so can we keep it that way?

For the record, you are.  You will continue to argue against them even when there is nothing left to say objectively, which is fine, I just wish you'd admit it.

Like Mitlov's point about the use of faux leather in both BMW's and Mercedes' cars, are they now not luxury cars because they do something like Hyundai?

And he's not alone - Others seem almost dedicated to making repeated negative comments about everything related to the brand.  Why, I can't really figure.  Maybe their childhood villages were trampled by a herd of rampaging Hyundais, or something.

Jaeger

[Mitlov]

For me, one of the differences between luxury and faux-luxury is the difference between real wood and woodgrain trim or silver painted plastic and aluminum trim.

I don't like fake wood either.  That said, Acura uses fake wood and both BMW and Mercedes use fake leather.  Lexus uses plenty of silver-painted plastic.  Just for the record.

That's true for their respective basic entry level models. The real stuff is an option on those too in most of the cases.
However, the 5 Series, A6, Lexus GS (don't know about E Class) don't seem to have any fake stuff in them at any point.

At least in the States, the 528i starts with "leatherette;" real leather is an extra-cost option.  Same with the E-Class and "MB-Tex;" real leather is an extra-cost option.  Acura puts fake wood even in their flagship RL, and there's no option for real wood.

Also, you said earlier that Lexus, Acura, etc were luxury brands from the beginning.  Ask people what 1980s Acura they think of first and most will say "Integra."  Was there ANYTHING luxurious about the Integra?

But the best example of a brand changing segments is Volkswagen.  In the 1940s and for a couple decades afterward, it was Germany's Kia.  Nowadays, even though the Phaeton failed, have you priced a Passat VR6 4Motion, or a Tuareg?  Have you looked inside either of them?  These are luxury vehicles, even if VW isn't a luxury brand and even if there's nothing "luxurious" about the New Beetle and Golf 2.5.  Hyundai is just trying to do what VW has successfully done.

EDIT:  The 2011 Volkswagen Tuareg's interior, available at the same dealership as the Jetta 2.5:

[DriverJeff]

Lexus did so well because they started a whole new sales and service approach, plus they launched what was unarguably at the time about as good a luxury car as anyone made.

The other thing they did totally right was the entire sales/service experience. You have not had your ass properly kissed until it has been kissed by a Lexus dealer. You almost want to buy one just so you can bring it in and get your latest dose of Lexus luvin. Owning any Lexus is a special experience from a sales/service perspective, and that is one of the reasons why Lexus has done so well and keeps doing so well.

I don't think anyone is saying that the Genesis Sedan is a poor car. It actually seems to be pretty damn nice, and competitively priced, offering lots of value for the money. However, it is NOT the second coming of Lexus and it is not the car to redefine the class.

Fair enough.  I'll grant you that Lexus really did it right by building a whole new dealership experience (I don't think it's superior to what I've experienced at a few different BMW dealerships, but that's beside the point). 

So the Genesis isn't the second-coming of Lexus as you've said, but that doesn't mean it can be summarily dismissed as a luxury car simply because it's not sold out of a separate dealership network.  As others have stated, the start of Genesis is not far off the start of Acura, and the dealership experience is likely to be comparable to that of Infiniti. 

[sailor723]

 

For the record, you are. 

And he's not alone - Others seem almost dedicated to making repeated negative comments about everything related to the brand.  Why, I can't really figure.  Maybe their childhood villages were trampled by a herd of rampaging Hyundais, or something.

Jaeger

[sailor723]

And he's not alone - Others seem almost dedicated to making repeated negative comments about everything related to the brand.  Why, I can't really figure.  Maybe their childhood villages were trampled by a herd of rampaging Hyundais, or something.

Jaeger



Maybe it's because they are former Pony,Stellar or Excel owners and have long (and painful ) memories.

[PJungnitsch]

I think that Genesis is helping underscore Hyundai's resurgence in their entire range, another indicator for auto buyers they have come a long way from the Pony days.

Sort of a 'this is what we can do' advertisement sitting right there in the metal on the Hyundai lot.

More of a Chevrolet/Cadillac model than a Toyota/Lexus one.

They may well have sold more Genesis models with a separate dealer lineup, but in the big Hyundai sales picture I think this benefits them more.

[Jaeger]

For me, one of the differences between luxury and faux-luxury is the difference between real wood and woodgrain trim or silver painted plastic and aluminum trim.

I don't like fake wood either.  That said, Acura uses fake wood and both BMW and Mercedes use fake leather.  Lexus uses plenty of silver-painted plastic.  Just for the record.

That's true for their respective basic entry level models. The real stuff is an option on those too in most of the cases.
However, the 5 Series, A6, Lexus GS (don't know about E Class) don't seem to have any fake stuff in them at any point.

At least in the States, the 528i starts with "leatherette;" real leather is an extra-cost option.  Same with the E-Class and "MB-Tex;" real leather is an extra-cost option.  Acura puts fake wood even in their flagship RL, and there's no option for real wood.

Also, you said earlier that Lexus, Acura, etc were luxury brands from the beginning.  Ask people what 1980s Acura they think of first and most will say "Integra."  Was there ANYTHING luxurious about the Integra?

But the best example of a brand changing segments is Volkswagen.  In the 1940s and for a couple decades afterward, it was Germany's Kia.  Nowadays, even though the Phaeton failed, have you priced a Passat VR6 4Motion, or a Tuareg?  Have you looked inside either of them?  These are luxury vehicles, even if VW isn't a luxury brand and even if there's nothing "luxurious" about the New Beetle and Golf 2.5.  Hyundai is just trying to do what VW has successfully done.

Correct on all points.

Jaeger

[Dante]

At least in the States, the 528i starts with "leatherette;" real leather is an extra-cost option.  Same with the E-Class and "MB-Tex;" real leather is an extra-cost option.  Acura puts fake wood even in their flagship RL, and there's no option for real wood.

Also, you said earlier that Lexus, Acura, etc were luxury brands from the beginning.  Ask people what 1980s Acura they think of first and most will say "Integra."  Was there ANYTHING luxurious about the Integra?

But the best example of a brand changing segments is Volkswagen.  In the 1940s and for a couple decades afterward, it was Germany's Kia.  Nowadays, even though the Phaeton failed, have you priced a Passat VR6 4Motion, or a Tuareg?  Have you looked inside either of them?  These are luxury vehicles, even if VW isn't a luxury brand and even if there's nothing "luxurious" about the New Beetle and Golf 2.5.  Hyundai is just trying to do what VW has successfully done.

In Canada, 2011 528i comes standard with leather. So does the A6 and the GS. The thing is, at least the leather is available on every trim where there is no option to replace the plastic wood and silver trim with the real stuff in Genesis in any trim. Sure, there is a leather (BTW: is that syntetic leather or genuine leather?) dash option on higher Genesis trims, but the big silver plastic pieces are still there even at 50K.

VW has been for years a "premium" brand so their flagship models are rather luxurious indeed. Still, I don't hear anyone calling the Passat and Touareg luxury vehicles although IMO they are more luxurious than the Genesis.

Acura and Lexus did not get acceptance right away as luxury brands, but they built the brands over time. To answer your question, it was more to the Acura than the Integra in the 80'. It was the Legend as well and I had a '89 Legend. It was a very high quality car (I had it between year 11 and 16) and by the standars of that time (late 80s) I'd say it was a near luxury vehicle if not luxury, without any doubt.

[Mitlov]

At least in the States, the 528i starts with "leatherette;" real leather is an extra-cost option.  Same with the E-Class and "MB-Tex;" real leather is an extra-cost option.  Acura puts fake wood even in their flagship RL, and there's no option for real wood.

Also, you said earlier that Lexus, Acura, etc were luxury brands from the beginning.  Ask people what 1980s Acura they think of first and most will say "Integra."  Was there ANYTHING luxurious about the Integra?

But the best example of a brand changing segments is Volkswagen.  In the 1940s and for a couple decades afterward, it was Germany's Kia.  Nowadays, even though the Phaeton failed, have you priced a Passat VR6 4Motion, or a Tuareg?  Have you looked inside either of them?  These are luxury vehicles, even if VW isn't a luxury brand and even if there's nothing "luxurious" about the New Beetle and Golf 2.5.  Hyundai is just trying to do what VW has successfully done.

In Canada, 2011 528i comes standard with leather. So does the A6 and the GS.

So are BMW and Merc luxury brands in Canada but not in the United States?

The thing is, at least the leather is available on every trim where there is no option to replace the plastic wood and silver trim with the real stuff in Genesis in any trim. Sure, there is a leather (BTW: is that syntetic leather or genuine leather?) dash option on higher Genesis trims, but the big silver plastic pieces are still there even at 50K.

What about the Acura RL I mentioned then?  No real wood option there either.  Is that not a luxury car?

(BTW: is that syntetic leather or genuine leather?)

The leather on the dash is real.

VW has been for years a "premium" brand so their flagship models are rather luxurious indeed. Still, I don't hear anyone calling the Passat and Touareg luxury vehicles although IMO they are more luxurious than the Genesis.

A premium brand for years?  First, even if they're a "premium brand," not just a brand with some premium models, they still haven't ALWAYS been that way.  There was a point when they first crossed that boundary.  Hyundai is approaching that point now.

Second, I can't comment about Canada, but the MkVI Golf starts at US$17,620 and the MkV Jetta starts at US$17,735.  That's firmly in Corolla/Civic/Mazda3 pricing territory.  The GTI's base price matches that of the Civic Si.  Volkswagen has some models that are "premium" or "luxury," but it also offers plenty of mass-market choices.

Finally, as for "I don't hear anyone calling the Passat and Tuareg luxury vehicles," when you try to build a VW CC on the VW US webpage, the loading screen says "The People want German luxury sedans without the German luxury price tag."  And the press release for the new 2011 Tuareg says: "In the front-end styling of the Volkswagen Touareg, designers implemented the new Volkswagen face for the first time in a luxury class vehicle." 

All in all, it seems VERY analogous to the Genesis for me.  It's a premium vehicle being offered up as a "luxury" competitor to steal sales from the well-establshed luxury brands, being offered by a non-luxury automaker who started out selling bargain-basement cars but now sells respectable, well-made mass-market cars.

[TopGun]

And he's not alone - Others seem almost dedicated to making repeated negative comments about everything related to the brand.  Why, I can't really figure.  Maybe their childhood villages were trampled by a herd of rampaging Hyundais, or something.

Well I'll admit to giving them a hard time despite the lack of rampaging Hyundais.  Mostly because a lot of folks 'round here seem to be so darn in love with them for making competent vehicles...that's what I don't get.  The different standards to which they forgive Hyundai but not other makers also drives me crazy.

[Ice]

And he's not alone - Others seem almost dedicated to making repeated negative comments about everything related to the brand.  Why, I can't really figure.  Maybe their childhood villages were trampled by a herd of rampaging Hyundais, or something.

Well I'll admit to giving them a hard time despite the lack of rampaging Hyundais.  Mostly because a lot of folks 'round here seem to be so darn in love with them for making competent vehicles...that's what I don't get.  The different standards to which they forgive Hyundai but not other makers also drives me crazy.

I guess it has to do with Hyundai's past reputation of making some outright horrible cars and through the years they have slowly improved their vehicles to the point now where they rival the best automakers in the world.  The honeymoon period will wear off eventually but for now there is still genuine surprise that they are top notch rivals now where they were a joke a decade ago.  That kind of improvement does count for something... depends on how far the improvement goes and if they loose it at some point.

[Dante]

BMW and MB are luxury brands as I said before. The fact they offer leatherette on their base models, but leather is an option and standard on higher models, means nothing.

The previous generation RL was a failure for Acura because it did not offer the luxury/technology/design expected in that segment.

Going back to Hyundai, I think it has a very strong line-up for the mainstream market, getting better and better with every redesign cycle. All their new models are top contenders in their respective segments (watch for the new Accent which just surfaced on the Internet). I'm sure the new Elantra, Santa Fe will also be top models when they arrive.
My whole point is that Hyundai still plays in the mainstream market for now.
If they decide to play in the luxury market, I think they will need another brand to do that.
Transitioning Hyundai brand from mainstream to premium and then luxury, will take decades perhaps.

[Jaeger]

Well I'll admit to giving them a hard time despite the lack of rampaging Hyundais.  Mostly because a lot of folks 'round here seem to be so darn in love with them for making competent vehicles...that's what I don't get.   The different standards to which they forgive Hyundai but not other makers also drives me crazy.

What I don't get is why, even if true, that bothers you so very very very very very much.

And more to the point - why you can't seem to allow for the possibility that others view their products - particularly recent offerings - as slightly better than merely competent.  Certainly the automotive press seems to have assessed both Genesis sedan and coupe as being a bit better than merely competent.  And didn't Honda-loving Car and Driver just rank the Sonata ahead of the Accord?  Have other mags not put it first - or nearly so in segment comparisons?  Could it possibly be that your view of the brand as one of miserable mediocrity is not the majority view?

Again - you are confusing your personal views of the brand with rules of general application.  "I think they are merely competent, therefore it makes no sense for people to be excited about them because, after all, they are merely competent.  No-one could think they are any better than merely competent, because I say they are no better, and anyone who thinks different is, by defiition, wrong."  etc....

Hey - whatever makes you feel superior....

Jaeger