Topic: Inside Story: 2010 Hyundai Genesis 4.6

[Dante]

Of course the G8 is not a luxury vehicle.  But then again, where did I say that ANY car with a V8 is considered to be luxury?  The only reason I brought up the V8 in the first place is because you claim that MANY mainstream vehicles offer all of what the Genesis does. 

No, I did not "claim that MANY mainstream vehicles offer all of what the Genesis does". What I said is that many mainstream cars today offer quiet, comfortable ride and a great interior.

More so, many new mainstream cars offer very high feature content now making it harder for the luxury manufacturers to differentiate themselves on features alone. They have to come up with something else to do so. LOL, my 2005 Mazda3 has auto-lights and rain-sensing wipers, features that some base luxury models from the same time did not have and my 2007 Outlander has Bluetooth, but many base luxury models did not have that at the time. These are just few examples to illustrate the broader point I'm trying to make that an extensive feature set, RWD or V8 alone do not make a luxury car, they are just part of the package.

Don't get me wrong, Hyundai did a good job with Genesis and it's a great car (RWD, optional V8, luxury appointments, etc.), but there are some things still missing before it can be considered a true luxury car. Many people here think otherwise, I don't, and I think we can still get along, right?

Why I don't think Genesis will succeed as a luxury car in the current setup, is because it's missing things that the luxury buyer are looking for - image, prestige, exclusivity (Mitlov, I didn't think exclusivity as how many are on the road, but as a different/superior ownership experience).
Sure, Genesis may look like a rational alternative to a 5-Series, A6, E-Class, but I don't think it would find too many takers. I guess the time will tell.
Like I said before, the previous attempt with the Veracruz failed IMO, but I guess the more they try the better they get.


EDIT: I was looking at the March sales and the numbers seem to support my theory.
The Genesis sedan is the only Hyundai nameplate posting a sales drop.

                          Mar-10           Mar-09         Change
Genesis (sedan)        91                 98            - 7.1%

[Jaeger]

Sure, Genesis may look like a rational alternative to a 5-Series, A6, E-Class, but I don't think it would find too many takers. I guess the time will tell.
Like I said before, the previous attempt with the Veracruz failed IMO, but I guess the more they try the better they get.

Not that this is conclusive proof of anything, but the local Hyundai dealer where I test drove the Genesis had two 5-series in the used lot - trade-ins on a new Genesis.  She said they have had a couple Lexus ES trade-ins as well - one was still there.  I didn't inquire about Mercedes and Audi.  Like Mitlov said, not all luxury buyers place "image" and "prestige" as important factors in their purchase decisions.

Jaeger

[Mitlov]

Of course the G8 is not a luxury vehicle.  But then again, where did I say that ANY car with a V8 is considered to be luxury?  The only reason I brought up the V8 in the first place is because you claim that MANY mainstream vehicles offer all of what the Genesis does. 

No, I did not "claim that MANY mainstream vehicles offer all of what the Genesis does". What I said is that many mainstream cars today offer quiet, comfortable ride and a great interior.

These things are NOT toggle switches, either present or absent, like ABS or stability control.  A Camry offers a quiet, comfortable ride and a great interior compared to a WRX.  But it's not at the same level as a Lexus GS on either front.  And the Genesis is at the Lexus GS level, not the Camry level.

Sure, Genesis may look like a rational alternative to a 5-Series, A6, E-Class, but I don't think it would find too many takers. I guess the time will tell.

It's doing very well here.  There are several in town.  Not nearly as many as E-Classes, but I honestly think there are more Genesis sedans in Medford than Lexus GSes.  I'm sure the GS sells better nationwide, but the Genesis is no flop.

Like I said before, the previous attempt with the Veracruz failed IMO, but I guess the more they try the better they get.

How do you define failure?  It beat the Lexus RX in a Motor Trend comparison test: source.  Inside Line also compared it to the RX, noting "Sure enough, we found the Veracruz has the same hushed, well-appointed cabin and gently refined ride as the Lexus RX 350."  (source).  And sales-wise, demand in North America exceeded Hyundai's expectations:  source.  It was never meant to sell as many units as the Santa Fe.  But it got positive reviews (including against the Lexus RX) and it sold better than they expected...how is that a failure?

[Dante]

Like I said before, the previous attempt with the Veracruz failed IMO, but I guess the more they try the better they get.

How do you define failure?  It beat the Lexus RX in a Motor Trend comparison test: source.  Inside Line also compared it to the RX, noting "Sure enough, we found the Veracruz has the same hushed, well-appointed cabin and gently refined ride as the Lexus RX 350."  (source).  And sales-wise, demand in North America exceeded Hyundai's expectations:  source.  It was never meant to sell as many units as the Santa Fe.  But it got positive reviews (including against the Lexus RX) and it sold better than they expected...how is that a failure?

Sales numbers (at least in Canada). It is not that it's not as good as the RX (not sure about that personally), but the luxury buyers don't seem to buy the Veracruz instead of the RX in large numbers. For sure there are the odd balls here and there, but hardly a trend.

The most recent (Feb-10) numbers in Canada:
Veracruz: 109
Lexus RX: 474

To me it seems like Hyundai is still regarded as a good mainstram brand (Accent, Elantra, Sonata, Tucson and Santa Fe are their core models) versus luxury.

EDIT: US March 2010 sales (round numbers)
Veracruz: 600
Lexus RX: 8000

[Weels]

I think I've seen ONE of these on the road here in Waterloo region. That says a lot considering to plethora of BMWs, Benz', and Lexus' here.

I've seen three of them around this week, after having gone months without seeing any.  Have seen quite a few coupes around, but not sedans, at least before this week.
I must say too, that the more I see them the more I like.

[Mitlov]

EDIT: I was looking at the March sales and the numbers seem to support my theory.
The Genesis sedan is the only Hyundai nameplate posting a sales drop.

                          Mar-10           Mar-09         Change
Genesis (sedan)        91                 98            - 7.1%

For comparison, Genesis sales in the USA:
2,145 (March 2010)
1,626 (March 2009)

http://www.hyundainews.com/Corporate_News/Sales_Releases/2010-04-01_2010_March_Sales.asp

[Dante]

EDIT: I was looking at the March sales and the numbers seem to support my theory.
The Genesis sedan is the only Hyundai nameplate posting a sales drop.

                          Mar-10           Mar-09         Change
Genesis (sedan)        91                 98            - 7.1%

For comparison, Genesis sales in the USA:
2,145 (March 2010)
1,626 (March 2009)

http://www.hyundainews.com/Corporate_News/Sales_Releases/2010-04-01_2010_March_Sales.asp

They seem to be the combined sales sedan/coupe. What are the sedan numbers?

BTW: This is another confusing thing from Hyundai's marketing. The sedan and the coupe are not related other then the RWD platform and 3.8L V6 engine, one is marketed as a luxury sedan and one as mainstream sports coupe, yet they share the same name and their sales are counted together.

I believe that the combined numbers in Canada are up too, but this is because the coupe sales.

EDIT: Look at the Veracruz numbers in the very same chart you posted and see where I'm coming from on that topic.

[2JDM]

I have seen more sedans than coupes in the London area - a Cherry Red, Beige and a black 4.6L. The black one looked GREAT. Definitely caught my attention, very classy.

[normancw]

Why I don't think Genesis will succeed as a luxury car in the current setup, is because it's missing things that the luxury buyer are looking for - image, prestige, exclusivity (Mitlov, I didn't think exclusivity as how many are on the road, but as a different/superior ownership experience).
Sure, Genesis may look like a rational alternative to a 5-Series, A6, E-Class, but I don't think it would find too many takers. I guess the time will tell.

I agree - I think the Genesis sedan competes well against Buick.  To compete with BMW, Audi, Mercedes, Lexus, Infiniti, and Acura, Hyundai needs to do a lot more marketing (maybe, establish a separate brand with separate showrooms like the Japanese auto makers).

I think the majority of luxury car buyers are looking for image and prestige to impress people (and not only those they actually give rides to).

The Genesis also faces competition from its own loaded Sonata which sells for $19k less.  Value shoppers looking for luxury can get the following features in a $31k Sonata:

Safety Features
Keyless Entry/Security Alarm System
Dual Front/Side and Side Curtain Airbags
Front Active Head Restraints
Anti-lock Braking System (ABS) with Electronic Brake Force Distribution (EBD)
Electronic Stability Control (ESC) with Traction Control System (TCS)

Interior Features
Dimension AM/FM/XM/CD/MP3 Stereo with 7 speakers and external Amplifier
Heated rear Seats
Power Drivers Seat
Air Conditioning
Power Windows
Power Door Locks
Cruise Control
Heated Front Seats
Leather Seating
Trip Computer
Telescoping Steering Wheel
Steering Wheel Audio Remote Control
Dual Zone Automatic Climate Control and Air Quality Control System
Proximity Entry with Electric Push Button Start
iPod and USB/Aux. Audio Input
Navigation System with High Resolution Touch Screen Display and Voice Commands
Backup Camera
Bluetooth® Hands Free Phone System

Exterior Features
17” Alloy Wheels
Chrome Grille and Hood Garnish
Side Repeater Mirror
Power Heated Mirrors
Fog Lights
Power Sunroof
Front Windshield Wiper Deicer

$19k more for the Genesis 4.5 buys some more features, RWD and 375 horsepower for the enthusiast, but I think most enthusiasts are looking for something smaller/sportier.

[Jaeger]

I'll give you one valid measure of succuss for the Genesis Sedan: people are mentioning it in the same breath as Lexus, Mercedes, BMW etc.  That a Hyundai should even be the subject of such a comparative discussion was unthinkable as little as 10 years ago. 

Pointing to far greater sales figures for comparable Lexus models hardly paints the Genesis as a failure.  It would be wildly optimistic to think they could instantaneously match a brand that has a a couple decades of VERY savvy markeing (and excellent product) behind it to establish its position among the luxury brands.  But when potential buyers and car mags alike point to the Genesis as both a credible and more affordable alternative to the established luxury brands, you know that Hyundai has accomplished exactly what they intended.

Jaeger

[CanuckS2K]

I'll give you one valid measure of succuss for the Genesis Sedan: people are mentioning it in the same breath as Lexus, Mercedes, BMW etc.  That a Hyundai should even be the subject of such a comparative discussion was unthinkable as little as 10 years ago. 

Pointing to far greater sales figures for comparable Lexus models hardly paints the Genesis as a failure.  It would be wildly optimistic to think they could instantaneously match a brand that has a a couple decades of VERY savvy markeing (and excellent product) behind it to establish its position among the luxury brands.  But when potential buyers and car mags alike point to the Genesis as both a credible and more affordable alternative to the established luxury brands, you know that Hyundai has accomplished exactly what they intended.

Jaeger

Completely agree.

If some people would actually take an objective look and get past that this is a "Hyundai" perhaps they would see that when you compare the Genesis to some of it's upscale competitors, you'd see it stacks up quite well......especially when you consider pricing.  People seem to be fixated that this is a Hyundai rather than the Genesis as a car itself.  But I guess there will always be brand whores out there that would rather have a certain symbol on their hood.  I am by no means a Hyundai fan boy, never owned one, nor is the Genesis a vehicle I am interested in, but as a car enthusiast I recognize when credit is due. 

[Spec5]

I'll give you one valid measure of succuss for the Genesis Sedan: people are mentioning it in the same breath as Lexus, Mercedes, BMW etc.  That a Hyundai should even be the subject of such a comparative discussion was unthinkable as little as 10 years ago. 

Pointing to far greater sales figures for comparable Lexus models hardly paints the Genesis as a failure.  It would be wildly optimistic to think they could instantaneously match a brand that has a a couple decades of VERY savvy markeing (and excellent product) behind it to establish its position among the luxury brands.  But when potential buyers and car mags alike point to the Genesis as both a credible and more affordable alternative to the established luxury brands, you know that Hyundai has accomplished exactly what they intended.

Jaeger

10 years ago?! I don't think anyone thought they could have pulled this off until they actually did. It truly is a remarkable car for them. I haven't driven one but I sat in one in the show room and the interior is as nice as any I've seen. Nicest car I've driven is probably an '03 M5 so thats not too sabby company. (although I'm sure performance was lacking compared to the M5 )

[Black Hatch]

Completely agree.

If some people would actually take an objective look and get past that this is a "Hyundai" perhaps they would see that when you compare the Genesis to some of it's upscale competitors, you'd see it stacks up quite well......especially when you consider pricing.  People seem to be fixated that this is a Hyundai rather than the Genesis as a car itself.  But I guess there will always be brand whores out there that would rather have a certain symbol on their hood.  I am by no means a Hyundai fan boy, never owned one, nor is the Genesis a vehicle I am interested in, but as a car enthusiast I recognize when credit is due. 

Well the first thing Hyundai needs to do is straighten that "H" and they can be percieved as a more reliable, upscaled asian brand....

[Erik]

EDIT: I was looking at the March sales and the numbers seem to support my theory.
The Genesis sedan is the only Hyundai nameplate posting a sales drop.

                          Mar-10           Mar-09         Change
Genesis (sedan)        91                 98            - 7.1%

For comparison, Genesis sales in the USA:
2,145 (March 2010)
1,626 (March 2009)

http://www.hyundainews.com/Corporate_News/Sales_Releases/2010-04-01_2010_March_Sales.asp

They seem to be the combined sales sedan/coupe. What are the sedan numbers?

BTW: This is another confusing thing from Hyundai's marketing. The sedan and the coupe are not related other then the RWD platform and 3.8L V6 engine, one is marketed as a luxury sedan and one as mainstream sports coupe, yet they share the same name and their sales are counted together.

I believe that the combined numbers in Canada are up too, but this is because the coupe sales.

EDIT: Look at the Veracruz numbers in the very same chart you posted and see where I'm coming from on that topic.

Everything I have been able to find from the Hyundai boards seems to show a split of 2/3 sedans to 1/3 coupes. Not a huge sales success for either. MUCH lower than Hyundai predicted.

[ArticSteve]

This is the bottom line:

Your at the hotel's front desk checking in and the clerk asks for the make and plate of your ride and you say "Genesis".  The clerk will give you that look and then politely ask again.  At which point you have no choice and you say in a low voice, "Hyundai".  Hopefully, the guest beside you at the front desk, also checking in, won't see the clerk's tiny smirk.

Meanwhile, the same guest beside you when asked the same question, in a clear voice, replies "BMW".  The clerk doesn't ask what model, doesn't matter.  It's a BMW.  Same goes with Lexus, Benz, Porsche, Jag et al.  It also doesn't matter if it's ten years old and worth 8K.  There are what they are, luxury brand names.  As CarCrazy has been pointing out, Hyundai needs to create a luxury brand name.

So can a Hyundai Genesis become a luxury name brand?  Not as long as Hyundai Accents are seen in full page newspaper ads at $169. per month. 

[sailor723]

This is the bottom line:

Your at the hotel's front desk checking in and the clerk asks for the make and plate of your ride and you say "Genesis".  The clerk will give you that look and then politely ask again.  At which point you have no choice and you say in a low voice, "Hyundai".  Hopefully, the guest beside you at the front desk, also checking in, won't see the clerk's tiny smirk.

Meanwhile, the same guest beside you when asked the same question, in a clear voice, replies "BMW".  The clerk doesn't ask what model, doesn't matter.  It's a BMW.  Same goes with Lexus, Benz, Porsche, Jag et al.  It also doesn't matter if it's ten years old and worth 8K.  There are what they are, luxury brand names.  As CarCrazy has been pointing out, Hyundai needs to create a luxury brand name.

So can a Hyundai Genesis become a luxury name brand?  Not as long as Hyundai Accents are seen in full page newspaper ads at $169. per month. 

Here's another point........ The average luxury car buyer is not going to accept the same showroom/sales staff or service dept experience as an Accent buyer.

The bottom line for me is that the Genesis sedan is a very nice vehicle with a lot of luxury features. The question becomes....is it too nice to be sold and serviced out of the average Hyundai franchise ?

[Ex-airbalancer]

It has the same problem as Caddy and Lincoln, they are sold in the same dealership
GM should have turned the Saturn dealership into Caddy dealership

[sailor723]

It has the same problem as Caddy and Lincoln, they are sold in the same dealership
GM should have turned the Saturn dealership into Caddy dealership

Exactly!!....When I take my SRX in for service I certainly don't get a what I perceive to be a "luxury car" service experience. I don't think it necessarily needs to be a stand alone store (especially in smaller markets) but a separate showroom area and service reception desk would make a difference. (For what it's worth I think many US Caddy dealers are stand alone stores.)

[Jaeger]

This is the bottom line:

Your at the hotel's front desk checking in and the clerk asks for the make and plate of your ride and you say "Genesis".  The clerk will give you that look and then politely ask again.  At which point you have no choice and you say in a low voice, "Hyundai".  Hopefully, the guest beside you at the front desk, also checking in, won't see the clerk's tiny smirk.

I somehow don't think I will ever become so pathetic and utterly shallow that the degree to which my car impresses a hotel clerk even registers in my consciousness, much less matters so much to me that it would inform my purchase decision.  I'm guessing Genesis sedan buyers would be embarrassed to be mistaken for the type of person trying impress others with his luxury brand vehicle.  You know, the kind of pretentious clown who manages to work "BMW" or "Mercedes" into any conversation so everyone knows he drives one?

It goes without saying that superficial brand whores will lust after brand names.  The question isn't really whether the Genesis is, or can become a luxury brand, but whether it is and can become recognized as a legitimate luxury vehicle.  I say it is, and it will.

Jaeger

[CanuckS2K]

This is the bottom line:

Your at the hotel's front desk checking in and the clerk asks for the make and plate of your ride and you say "Genesis".  The clerk will give you that look and then politely ask again.  At which point you have no choice and you say in a low voice, "Hyundai".  Hopefully, the guest beside you at the front desk, also checking in, won't see the clerk's tiny smirk.

I somehow don't think I will ever become so pathetic and utterly shallow that the degree to which my car impresses a hotel clerk even registers in my consciousness, much less matters so much to me that it would inform my purchase decision.  I'm guessing Genesis sedan buyers would be embarrassed to be mistaken for the type of person trying impress others with his luxury brand vehicle.  You know, the kind of pretentious clown who manages to work "BMW" or "Mercedes" into any conversation so everyone knows he drives one?

It goes without saying that superficial brand whores will lust after brand names.  The question isn't really whether the Genesis is, or can become a luxury brand, but whether it is and can become recognized as a legitimate luxury vehicle.  I say it is, and it will.

Jaeger

+1000, took the words right out of my mouth.