Author Topic: Steering You Right: Random breath tests  (Read 21203 times)

Offline toolatecrew

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Re: Steering You Right: Random breath tests
« Reply #60 on: April 20, 2010, 11:04:55 am »
How about all the people who don't care about their right to not be searched without cause put a sticker in their window indicating they waive that right. Then the cops can subject  those people randomly to breath tests, blood test body cavity searches whatever they want,. The rest of us who want to keep that right can.

Everyone wins.

I have a better idea.  How about we make all those who oppose the law wear badges - heck, we're a Nazi fascist state anyway, so no biggie.   :rofl: Then, whenever there's a drunk driving fatality, we make one of you go along with the cops to the grieving, devasted family of the deceased and explain to them why a 15 minute incursion upon your precious freedom (and that of the drunk driver) wasn't worth even the chance of saving the life of their loved one(s).

You first.

Jaeger

Sure no problem fro me

Every time I get into that car I increase the chance that SOMEONE else will be killed. Be it from a blown tire, faulty brakes, looking away at the wrong moment.

However I and YOU are willing to take that risk in order to get from place a to B faster than walking. You have an acceptable threshold of risk to get what you want.

The price of my freedom is the tiny incrased chance that a random search (not stop search) not performed will miss a drunk driver. A ban on the sale of alcohol would see a HUGE drop in drunk driving. Do you support prohibition. If not you should go along with the cops and explain why to the families right? Becuase your right to drink booze is much more improtant than my freedoms?

BTW how effective do you expect RANDOM searchs to be?

In 2008 Waterloo regional police stopped 54 582 people at ride stops. They ONLY took about 400 people off the road due drinking related things.

So from NON random targeted testing (rember they can only test you if they have reasonable grounds) they caught 0.007% of those they stopped. That's in high risk areas and times where they are likley to catch people.  So you are willing to giveup for freedom for that? If the % they catch on targeted programs is 0.007% what would it be on an out of the blue no reason test? Its teeny tiny.

If you want to give up that right its fine. Just stop trying to be so high and mighty trying to accuse people of putting others in danger when the reality is that you do things every day and support things (like the sale of alcohol) that put people at worse risk. You just aren't willing to give up the freedoms YOU choose to avoid them.

Online Jaeger

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Re: Steering You Right: Random breath tests
« Reply #61 on: April 20, 2010, 11:19:13 am »
BTW how effective do you expect RANDOM searchs to be?.

Cast a wider net, catch more fish.

Jaeger
Wokeism is nothing more than the recognition and opposition of bigotry in all its forms.  Bigots are predictably triggered.

Offline tpl

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Re: Steering You Right: Random breath tests
« Reply #62 on: April 20, 2010, 11:21:48 am »
Quote
In 2008 Waterloo regional police stopped 54 582 people at ride stops. They ONLY took about 400 people off the road due drinking related things.
And I wonder how many of the 400 were at >50 <80 who were just sent home in a taxi.

Similar stats come from the TO police as well... don't know the exact figures.
The most radical revolutionary will become a conservative the day after the revolution.

Offline toolatecrew

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Re: Steering You Right: Random breath tests
« Reply #63 on: April 20, 2010, 12:23:15 pm »
BTW how effective do you expect RANDOM searchs to be?.

Cast a wider net, catch more fish.

Jaeger

Fish with dynamite catch lots more fish. Just ignore any damage you do to anything around you to do it.


Offline Rupert

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Re: Steering You Right: Random breath tests
« Reply #64 on: April 20, 2010, 12:44:47 pm »
Random does not mean 'without reason' and in fact there is a reason for the stops...presumably to try to reduce the incidence of driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs for that matter and if the officer sees a reason to apply tests or a search then so be it. It's an inconvenience that I have been subject to perhaps once in 50 years of driving. I don't know how many years this procedure has been in effect. Anyway I too was only asked questions and then allowed to procede and it only took a moment or two.

Random means 'aimless selection' probably more closely in this context and if you are like me and do not drink and drive and are sensible enough to keep your conveyance in decent order...well once or twice in a lifetime...whats the problem. If it catches drunk drivers and it does, then it is doing a worthwhile job and I have no problem with it. It's a minor inconvenience and nothing to bother the charter of rights with in my opinion as long as the procedure is conducted curteously and is 'technically' correct.

I doubt that police officers are keen to draw this type of duty so maybe teams dedicated to this procedure should be used, if they are not already, so that the technicalities become very familiar if they are so pertinent.


Offline toolatecrew

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Re: Steering You Right: Random breath tests
« Reply #65 on: April 20, 2010, 02:15:26 pm »
Random does not mean 'without reason' and in fact there is a reason for the stops...presumably to try to reduce the incidence of driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs for that matter and if the officer sees a reason to apply tests or a search then so be it. It's an inconvenience that I have been subject to perhaps once in 50 years of driving. I don't know how many years this procedure has been in effect. Anyway I too was only asked questions and then allowed to procede and it only took a moment or two.

Random means 'aimless selection' probably more closely in this context and if you are like me and do not drink and drive and are sensible enough to keep your conveyance in decent order...well once or twice in a lifetime...whats the problem. If it catches drunk drivers and it does, then it is doing a worthwhile job and I have no problem with it. It's a minor inconvenience and nothing to bother the charter of rights with in my opinion as long as the procedure is conducted curteously and is 'technically' correct.

I doubt that police officers are keen to draw this type of duty so maybe teams dedicated to this procedure should be used, if they are not already, so that the technicalities become very familiar if they are so pertinent.



You seem to be missing the point of the randomness.

Its not random stops. Its random TESTS

This statment "in fact there is a reason for the stops...presumably to try to reduce the incidence of driving under the influence of alcohol or drugs for that matter and if the officer sees a reason to apply tests or a search then so be it."

Indicates you are missing the point of the argument.

Under the law today they are alolowed to STOP you randomly (even if its under the pretext of checking your saftey inspection or whatever.

The proposal is that they be allowed to SEACH or TEST you without "the officer sees a reason to apply tests or a search"

The problem is that it gives police the power to compel you under penalty of law to submit to giving up samples of "bodily fluid" which is in effect what breath samples are and to being search at the random whim of the police. As long as they do it with curteously and is 'technically' correct are you willing to submit to DNA samples, blood tests body cavity searchs without cause?

The problem is not all officers can be counted on to perform these searchs for proper reason. There is no "checks and balances" to prevent harrasment. If officer A suspects you of dealing drugs becuase of the color of your skin or the car you drive or maybe you slept with his girlfriend  he can pull you over and demand a breath sample 5 times a day hoping to catch you at "something" and there is no recourse becuase you must comply. You can't fight it becuase he's allowed to randomly search you with no cause.

People say it won't happen to me becuase most cops are good and won't do it..but just wait till it does happen to you and you have no way to fight it. This stuff happens its fact and no one will belive that remving checks and balances won't increase abuse

Offline Rupert

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Re: Steering You Right: Random breath tests
« Reply #66 on: April 20, 2010, 03:40:20 pm »
It is not fishing with dynamite at all IMO; what it is, I think, is sample inspection. Anyone in manufacturing (if there is anyone remaining) understands the term. You can not inspect everything so you do a sample.

What is the alternative...just do nothing? Give drunk drivers carte blanche...what do you do? It's not perfect...nothing is. It's something...a try.

Offline DockMan

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Re: Steering You Right: Random breath tests
« Reply #67 on: April 20, 2010, 04:15:18 pm »
It is not fishing with dynamite at all IMO; what it is, I think, is sample inspection. Anyone in manufacturing (if there is anyone remaining) understands the term. You can not inspect everything so you do a sample.

What is the alternative...just do nothing? Give drunk drivers carte blanche...what do you do? It's not perfect...nothing is. It's something...a try.

Random, representative sampling is a proven quality control methodology in manufacturing. Parts are things, not people. People have rights, parts are property. My government should not treat me like property. The government is not some nebulous faceless conceptualization, our government is made of people elected by us. People seem to forget that me thinks.
Political extremism involves two prime ingredients: an excessively simple diagnosis of the world's ills, and a conviction that there are identifiable villains back of it all. - John W. Gardner

Offline KRS

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Re: Steering You Right: Random breath tests
« Reply #68 on: April 20, 2010, 05:28:22 pm »
It's an inconvenience that I have been subject to perhaps once in 50 years of driving.

 if you are like me and do not drink and drive and are sensible enough to keep your conveyance in decent order...well once or twice in a lifetime...whats the problem.

  What i interpret this new proposed law as being isn't what you haven't experienced, but potentially could mean (as a ridiculous but not unplausable example) that if a police officer in a town were his brother is a laid off Chrysler employee, could opt to pull over every Hyundai he sees and force each driver to give a sample, even multiple times a day until people local to the area are force to change cars in order to be able to live a life with out any recourse because the officer doesn't need any reason. If instead of being over once in 50 years you were now being pulled over 6 times a day because a local officer has taken a dislike to you, and you had little recourse to it would you consider it reasonable.

  Is there any reason to believe that the present system of ride checks aren't as effective as letting an officer demand samples from anyone he has a urged to whether or not he has a reason to suspect anything.
What is the alternative...just do nothing? Give drunk drivers carte blanche...what do you do? It's not perfect...nothing is. It's something...a try.

 Perhaps a better alternative police looking for drunk drivers could be pulling over people who are swerving all over the road and set up roadside stops where people who may be are inebriated are likely to be driving, say 50 feet from the local bar like they can all ready do. They hardly need the power to not be answerable for pulling over the same person or group of people under the guise of a random check without reason.

 While I suspect fewer then then 1% of police officers would ever do such a thing, that leaves a lots of opportunity for unchecked abuses of power.

 In the town nearest to where I grew up, there was a police officer who would find any reason to stop any motorcyclist. He once stopped me and tried to ticket me for needing a new exhaust on my Suzuki on/off road bike. I was literally going home from getting a brand new stock exhaust system installed and had the receipt to prove it. There was nothing wrong with the exhaust He just needed an excuse to be a bother and and that's what he came up with. I promptly complained to the police chief and he was made to apologize, for that and the 6 other unfounded stops in the proceeding 3 and a half weeks none of which resulted in tickets but all of which took an hour out of my life. With a law that relieved him of having to come up with an excuse he would have had no time to deal with any crimes because he would have been pulling over motorcycles all day instead.

  I have little problem with stopping, answering "Have you been drinking today" and being sent on my way when they can smell nothing and get the answer they are seeking, as already happens to me at least 3 times a year, along with any others driving down the road, but I have huge problems with being the only person being pulled over repeatedly and made to blow onto a machine six times a day.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 05:32:14 pm by KRS »
Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.<br />        H. L. Mencken<br />      (1880 - 1956)

Offline safristi

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Re: Steering You Right: Random breath tests
« Reply #69 on: April 20, 2010, 05:41:41 pm »
someone(s) said "Random Sampling" is used in .industry..well when planks and widgets can drive...maybe we can TALK........... ??? :bang: :banghead:..this thread is useless wiffout PLANKS......... ::) :P
« Last Edit: April 20, 2010, 05:45:40 pm by safristi »
Time is to stop everything happening at once

Offline toolatecrew

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Re: Steering You Right: Random breath tests
« Reply #70 on: April 20, 2010, 07:16:08 pm »
It is not fishing with dynamite at all IMO; what it is, I think, is sample inspection. Anyone in manufacturing (if there is anyone remaining) understands the term. You can not inspect everything so you do a sample.

What is the alternative...just do nothing? Give drunk drivers carte blanche...what do you do? It's not perfect...nothing is. It's something...a try.
The alternative is not to do nothing. Its to continue with the status quo.

MADD estimates 37% of traffic fatalities are from alcohol . I'll just let that be.

SO in 1980 there were 5461 or 2020 drinking fatalities. In 2006  2889 or 1069.   That's a 53% reduction. What is being done WORKS.

How many more lives will be saved by random TESTING (not stops testing)

The answer of even one more life is worth it is simply not an acceptable one. Society has accepted that there is an acceptable loss in return for certain things. They accept that by making alcohol available for sale that people may be killed. They accept that by allowing people to drive 100kph vs 50 kph more people may be killed.

There are acceptable losses by society no matter how much people might rail about "even one life is worth it"


Online Jaeger

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Re: Steering You Right: Random breath tests
« Reply #71 on: April 21, 2010, 10:48:29 am »
It is not fishing with dynamite at all IMO; what it is, I think, is sample inspection. Anyone in manufacturing (if there is anyone remaining) understands the term. You can not inspect everything so you do a sample.

Exactly correct.  And the larger the sample, the better.  Some here would have you believe that the random nature of the test will somehow lead to the end of democracy, the rise of fascism, and quite possibly, the termination of all life on planet earth.  They don't exactly let reality intrude upon a good FREEDOM! rant. 

If they lose 15 minutes of their precious freedom so that one drunk gets pulled oof the road and doesn't destroy some mom with a minivan full of kids, it's worth it to me.  And I'm fairly confident they'll catch more than one.  The freedom lovers will wail and gnash their teeth over the intrusion upon his rights.  But I sure won't.

Jaeger


Offline toolatecrew

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Re: Steering You Right: Random breath tests
« Reply #72 on: April 21, 2010, 11:30:18 am »
It is not fishing with dynamite at all IMO; what it is, I think, is sample inspection. Anyone in manufacturing (if there is anyone remaining) understands the term. You can not inspect everything so you do a sample.

Exactly correct.  And the larger the sample, the better.  Some here would have you believe that the random nature of the test will somehow lead to the end of democracy, the rise of fascism, and quite possibly, the termination of all life on planet earth.  They don't exactly let reality intrude upon a good FREEDOM! rant. 

If they lose 15 minutes of their precious freedom so that one drunk gets pulled oof the road and doesn't destroy some mom with a minivan full of kids, it's worth it to me.  And I'm fairly confident they'll catch more than one.  The freedom lovers will wail and gnash their teeth over the intrusion upon his rights.  But I sure won't.

Jaeger



Fine ..again with if it saves one life its worth it argument.

I'll expect you to start protesting for prohibition ASAP then. The sale of alcohol is huige contributor to drunk driving deaths. Why not get at the cause ?


Offline tpl

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Re: Steering You Right: Random breath tests
« Reply #73 on: April 21, 2010, 11:38:25 am »
In the long run, the history books, it doesn't matter at all if a minivan full of kids or you or me get killed by a drunk driver, gangbanger or anything else. Everybody dies and it makes little difference when.

I agree with toolate here

Quote
Society has accepted that there is an acceptable loss in return for certain things. They accept that by making alcohol available for sale that people may be killed. They accept that by allowing people to drive 100kph vs 50 kph more people may be killed.

There are acceptable losses by society no matter how much people might rail about "even one life is worth it"






Offline DockMan

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Re: Steering You Right: Random breath tests
« Reply #74 on: April 21, 2010, 12:17:55 pm »

Fine ..again with if it saves one life its worth it argument.

I'll expect you to start protesting for prohibition ASAP then. The sale of alcohol is huige contributor to drunk driving deaths. Why not get at the cause ?


Might as well speed limit all cars to 1 km p/h, you would save thousands of automotive deaths every year on public roads.

Offline toolatecrew

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Re: Steering You Right: Random breath tests
« Reply #75 on: April 21, 2010, 12:24:09 pm »

Fine ..again with if it saves one life its worth it argument.

I'll expect you to start protesting for prohibition ASAP then. The sale of alcohol is huige contributor to drunk driving deaths. Why not get at the cause ?


Just outlaw cars. Then there would be NO automotive deaths.

If it saves even one life ITS WORTH IT!

Might as well speed limit all cars to 1 km p/h, you would save thousands of automotive deaths every year on public roads.

Online Jaeger

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Re: Steering You Right: Random breath tests
« Reply #76 on: April 21, 2010, 01:01:02 pm »

Fine ..again with if it saves one life its worth it argument.

I'll expect you to start protesting for prohibition ASAP then. The sale of alcohol is huige contributor to drunk driving deaths. Why not get at the cause ?

Separate (but related) issue.  The law doesn't prohibit the consumption of alcohol, but the choice to drive having done so.  People can drink all they want and slowly poison their own bodies if that is their choice, but hauling their drunken asses behind the wheel of a car puts everyone else on the road in real danger.  I'm all for putting a stop to that and doing so aggressively.

Aside from a bunch of over-the-top hyperbole about fascism and the Nazis, I haven't seen one good reason advanced why we shouldn't allow random tests.  It changes the present system very little in terms of intruding upon individual rights and allows for casting a wider investigative net to catch people who ARE a danger to life, liberty and security of the person.

And as I said - it will save more than one life - but one is enough for me.  If you get your panties all in a wad because you are randomly pulled over and randomly have to blow in a screening device before being sent on your way, I lose no sleep on your account.  None at all.  You're now 15 minutes late for wherever you were going, and nursing a good case of righteous indignation.  BFD.  I lose sleep over the widows and orphans the drunk drivers create.

Jaeger

Offline aquadorhj

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Re: Steering You Right: Random breath tests
« Reply #77 on: April 21, 2010, 01:09:13 pm »

Fine ..again with if it saves one life its worth it argument.

I'll expect you to start protesting for prohibition ASAP then. The sale of alcohol is huige contributor to drunk driving deaths. Why not get at the cause ?


Just outlaw cars. Then there would be NO automotive deaths.

If it saves even one life ITS WORTH IT!

Might as well speed limit all cars to 1 km p/h, you would save thousands of automotive deaths every year on public roads.

if we limit the speed to 1 km/h...  walking would be faster, and therefore, there would be no reason to buy cars..   ...  time to invest in horses again.

Driving thrills makes my wallet lighter.. and therefore makes me faster because i'm shedding weight... :D

Offline DockMan

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Re: Steering You Right: Random breath tests
« Reply #78 on: April 21, 2010, 01:25:35 pm »
I think the point is that if preventing "even one death" is your operating justification, there is not much we are going to argue to win here. Jaeger doesn't see any merit in erosion of freedom and liberty where a life could be saved, not on a personal but a societal level. Best I can hope for is not to elect or contribute to the election of anyone like him.

Offline safristi

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Re: Steering You Right: Random breath tests
« Reply #79 on: April 21, 2010, 01:55:04 pm »
...I'm ....holding my breath........ fer random breast tests........................i just hope i don't BLOW OV'R............... :shuffle: :run: