Author Topic: Feds get tough on auto emissions, announce joint Canada-US rules  (Read 3479 times)

Offline tpl

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from the NP

New rules that kick in next year governing vehicle emissions in Canada and the United States will likely mean higher sticker prices for consumers and production costs for manufacturers, Environment Minister Jim Prentice said Thursday.

Nevertheless, he hailed the new continental-wide plan as "ambitious but achievable." And in a wrinkle, the new regulations include an industry-specific emissions-trading scheme under which car makers that don't meet the tough new standards can buy credits from rivals that have. The credits will initially cost $20 per tonne of carbon, and the price will fluctuate with market demand, the Minister said.

Auto industry officials said the program is "aggressive," but at least there is now certainty as to what the near-term rules will be. Plus, a continental-wide regime will allow companies to keep a lid on the cost of vehicle development, because the same rules will apply in both countries.

"Everyone agrees there's going to be a cost implication to this," said David Adams, president of the Association of International Automobile Manufacturers of Canada, which represents Honda Motor Co. and other overseas-based companies. "This is one of the most important announcements for our industry in a long time."

Other industry observers were not so charitable.

"The reality is that it is impossible to meet these new fuel efficiency rules, pure and simple," said Dennis DesRosiers, head of DesRosiers Automotive Consultants of Richmond Hill, Ont., adding the measures are the "most negative piece of regulation ever to hit" the industry.

The measures, unveiled Thursday at an Ottawa-area Ford dealer, apply to any company that either builds or sells cars in Canada, beginning with the 2011 model year. They will force each automaker to achieve a combined average fuel economy for all the models it sells of 35.5 miles per gallon by 2016. That is equivalent in Canada to about 6.6 litres of gasoline usage for every 100 kilometres driven.

Greenhouse-gas emission standards would become more stringent with each new model year from 2012 to 2016. Further, there would also be separate limits for other tailpipe emissions, such as nitrous oxide and methane.

"Yes vehicles will cost a little more upfront, but the money they save on fuel should make up those extra costs," Mr. Prentice said.

Similar measures were also unveiled in Washington. The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has estimated they will boost the price of cars and trucks by an average of US$1,300 per vehicle. However, it claimed that would be offset by about US$2,800 in fuel costs over the life of the car or truck. Other estimates on the cost are two or three times higher.

Mr. DesRosiers, however, said it generally takes "at least eight years to implement any new technology in this sector and the normal implementation period is closer to 16 years. So even if the technology existed, which it doesn't in any way shape or form the 2016 goal could not be met."

Mr. Prentice had frequently said it was his preference to introduce vehicle-emission standards that were in line with the U.S., the country's largest trading partner. These are the first mandatory rules for vehicle emissions in Canada, which in the past preferred voluntary guidelines.

"I wouldn't use the word 'happy' to describe how we feel about this," said Mark Nantais, president of the Canadian Vehicle Manufacturers' Association, which represents General Motors Corp., Ford Motor Co., and Chrysler Group LLC in Canada. "These are really aggressive standards. But it does give us the clarity we need for the next five years and allows us to properly put the resources where we need them to deliver the technologies needed to comply."

It was not immediately clear if the provinces of Quebec and British Columbia would adhere to the new federal standard. Both provinces have signalled they intend to regulate vehicle emissions themselves. Mr. Prentice said he was hoping to work with the provinces, with the hope that "there will be good will to ensure all of Canada will see the wisdom of these regulations on a continental basis."

Read more: http://www.financialpost.com/story.html?id=2752609#ixzz0jsmIDPI7


I guess that pickups will be omitted from the vehicles that have to get in the average so there will still be 6 litre pickups around for those that insist.



  Time to start looking at preowned cars I guess.
« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 04:32:48 pm by tpl »
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Offline safristi

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Re: Feds get tough on auto emissions, announce joint Canada-US rules
« Reply #1 on: April 01, 2010, 04:41:19 pm »
....OR......Shank's PONY by 2021................... ;D
« Last Edit: April 01, 2010, 04:46:03 pm by safristi »
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Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: Feds get tough on auto emissions, announce joint Canada-US rules
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2010, 02:20:07 am »

[snip]"The reality is that it is impossible to meet these new fuel efficiency rules, pure and simple," said Dennis DesRosiers, head of DesRosiers Automotive Consultants of Richmond Hill, Ont., adding the measures are the "most negative piece of regulation ever to hit" the industry.[snip]

[snip]Mr. DesRosiers, however, said it generally takes "at least eight years to implement any new technology in this sector and the normal implementation period is closer to 16 years. So even if the technology existed, which it doesn't in any way shape or form the 2016 goal could not be met."[snip]

I guess that pickups will be omitted from the vehicles that have to get in the average so there will still be 6 litre pickups around for those that insist.

  Time to start looking at preowned cars I guess.

Light duty trucks have to meet their own target. I believe heavy duty pickups and vans are still exempt.

DesRosier must have been drunk off his ass. This has been telegraphed for at least the last couple of years.

What new technology is required exactly? Cutting HP in non-performance cars, dropping to 4 cylinders or turbo fours, and voilą, mission accomplished. Hyundai already has a good start with the new Sonata and VDub has been doing this for years. GM, Ford and the rest of them already have new small cars with advanced DI and turbo motors in the pipe. It might push more of them to finally offer some diesels though.

Sounds like a redux of the late 1970s and early 80s. Hopefully, the manufacturers will be better at it this time 'round. :nono:
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 02:22:44 am by Sir Osis of Liver »
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Offline tpl

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Re: Feds get tough on auto emissions, announce joint Canada-US rules
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2010, 06:00:54 am »
It certainly is quite possible to meet the standard which, from an interview with Mr Prentice on BNN, is actually expressed as an average of 153 gm/km of carbon. The EU is doing the same thing but at 120 gm/km of Carbon.
My GTI is at 170 gm/km now.   Diesels would be easier to do and keep performance we expect but unlike the EU, the EPA rules do not allow for diesels different combustion.

I suspect that the subtext of Desrosiers remark would be:  "The reality is that it is impossible to meet these new fuel efficiency rules with cars that people in NA will want to buy "

Offline saint_satan

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Re: Feds get tough on auto emissions, announce joint Canada-US rules
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2010, 06:35:14 am »
I think this is a real game changer.  I think the powers that be realize that peak oil isn't a myth and $2.00 per litre gas is around the corner.  Oil dependancy is also a national security issue in the U.S.  The nearly-bankrupt superpower cannot afford to act as the world's cop and secure the world's oil pipelines.  Competition is heating up from China and India.  Throw climate change into the mix as well.  I think the folks in charge are more worried about oil consumption but are hiding it under the guise of "environmental protection".

The technology already exists for a more fuel efficient fleet but, as a society, we've gotten used to Hemi-powered 1/2 tons as daily commuters, 200+hp minivans that do 0-60 in less than 8 seconds, etc.  Land Rovers and Jeep Willys of yesteryear conquered the world with 60 horse power engines. 

We don't need all the horsepower and weight we have become accustom to - but, man, it's going to be hard to give up.

I say $1.40+ a litre gas will be here to stay in 2 years or so - any thoughts?
« Last Edit: April 02, 2010, 06:38:48 am by saint_satan »

Offline sailor723

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Re: Feds get tough on auto emissions, announce joint Canada-US rules
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2010, 06:50:43 am »

[snip]"
I


Sounds like a redux of the late 1970s and early 80s. Hopefully, the manufacturers will be better at it this time 'round. :nono:

I sure hope so. I remember a  '73 Lemans my Mom had....350 V8 and a 0-60 time well north of 10 seconds  :(

Although we have definately become spoiled when it comes to power and performance in our vehicles. I can remember being impressed with an '85 Maxima with a 3.0 V6. I think the HP number was a whopping 155  ;D
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Re: Feds get tough on auto emissions, announce joint Canada-US rules
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2010, 06:54:59 am »
Another bad hurricane season and it will be $1.50

CEO car will be http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5XYYrXOfNE  It is suppose to get better mileage the the Prius

I will drive the Prius full time if gas is above $1.15

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Re: Feds get tough on auto emissions, announce joint Canada-US rules
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2010, 06:56:53 am »
And an inline 6 323 is rated at 186 and it can cruise at 140 all day long

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Re: Feds get tough on auto emissions, announce joint Canada-US rules
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2010, 07:04:27 am »
I suspect that the subtext of Desrosiers remark would be:  "The reality is that it is impossible to meet these new fuel efficiency rules with cars that people in NA will want to buy "
Dunno. I've come to grips with a 1560kg car (including pilot, oink) that has ~`153hp/tq. Even on the shortest of highway merging lanes *I* am not the slowest car to 100km/h. If you wankers with the ~275hp family sedans would get out of my way then life would be grand  ;)

I peg the average consumer 0-100km/h at ~9 seconds despite the vehicle they're in being capable of 7 seconds(or less) and believe that there is plenty of room for these emission improvements without crapping on daily life.

Offline Ex-airbalancer

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Re: Feds get tough on auto emissions, announce joint Canada-US rules
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2010, 07:13:13 am »
Did you see sales for Prius in March up 130%
That with a 2gs off from Toyota
If Canadian government dropped the 6% import tax on the the Prius
I believe their sales would take off

I believe this shows a lot  Canadians want a high mileage car

Offline sailor723

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Re: Feds get tough on auto emissions, announce joint Canada-US rules
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2010, 09:03:37 am »
And an inline 6 323 is rated at 186 and it can cruise at 140 all day long

Yep....our 86 300E had 177 hp from a 3.0 straight six and it seemed to have gobs of power. Are modern mid-sized sedans that much heavier that they need 250+ hp or have we just become accustomed to sub 7 second 0-60 times?

Offline safristi

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Re: Feds get tough on auto emissions, announce joint Canada-US rules
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2010, 09:10:51 am »
Did you see sales for Prius in March up 130%
That with a 2gs off from Toyota
If Canadian government dropped the 6% import tax on the the Prius
I believe their sales would take off

I believe this shows a lot  Canadians want a high mileage car

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Offline Triple Bob

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Re: Feds get tough on auto emissions, announce joint Canada-US rules
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2010, 09:46:09 am »
The UK is already at well over $2 a litre plus over $1500 annual road tax for polluting vehicles.


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Re: Feds get tough on auto emissions, announce joint Canada-US rules
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2010, 12:27:24 pm »
Seeing that passenger cars and trucks contribute roughly 12%* of Canadas GHG emissions I have to wonder what difference this will really make.   It seems to me like it's an easy target to go after instead of one that is actually meaningful.

*Granted that 12% might be a little higher if you include the contributions of the oil sands to produce gasoline but passenger cars and trucks would still be a minority contributor.

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Re: Feds get tough on auto emissions, announce joint Canada-US rules
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2010, 12:49:50 pm »
Remember,you are dealing with politicians here. It's often not a matter of doing something. It's a matter of appearing to be doing something

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: Feds get tough on auto emissions, announce joint Canada-US rules
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2010, 12:59:15 pm »
IF Harper (and Obama) was indeed serious, he'd be going after the tar sands and coal fired power plants. But he won't, because he isn't.

This is largely window dressing, but it will reduce emissions a bit and help fuel economy a lot.

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Re: Feds get tough on auto emissions, announce joint Canada-US rules
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2010, 12:59:59 pm »


I will drive the Prius full time if gas is above $1.15

Don't think I would drive a Prius full time if gas were $15 a litre. 15 cents a litre more sure wouldn't make me do that.
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Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: Feds get tough on auto emissions, announce joint Canada-US rules
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2010, 08:33:51 pm »
Just for kicks I looked at the hp and weight of the largest and most powerful Ford over the years. Looks like a cyclical function.

(HP prior to 1972 are SAE gross)

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Re: Feds get tough on auto emissions, announce joint Canada-US rules
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2010, 11:15:32 am »
If that is the case, then they better look at tractor trailers and city buses.

There are far better ways of transporting goods. And city buses during off peak times pollute big time per passenger mile and I even doubt they are as pollution free as 50 cars are during peak times.
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Re: Feds get tough on auto emissions, announce joint Canada-US rules
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2010, 02:55:40 pm »
More nonsense like this and EV's won't seem so redunkulous.  Gotta agree with Satan on this one  >:D ... Regs like this were inevitable anyway.  Not sure if it was mentioned but did diesel's fall under the same regs or do they have their own rules?