Author Topic: Opinion: Sticky throttles - suggestions and solutions  (Read 7580 times)

Offline Autos_Editor

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Opinion: Sticky throttles - suggestions and solutions
« on: March 10, 2010, 04:02:36 am »
Contributing Editor, Chris Chase talked to Toyota Canada’s Managing Director, Stephen Beatty, about what his company is doing to help consumers understand the problem of sticky throttles, and what to do about it.
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Offline Gardiner Westbound

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Re: Opinion: Sticky throttles - suggestions and solutions
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2010, 07:38:54 am »
If condensation is causing unintended acceleration (UA) cold climate Toyotas would be most affected. That isn't the case. Yesterday's runaway Prius is a California car.

NHTSA has not received a single BMW, Mercedes or Volkswagen UA report. They all have brake override software. Toyota's bean counters shaved a couple of dollars by omitting it. The piper is being paid.

A car's brakes will stop a vehicle at full power, if you have the presence of mind to stay on them and don't hit a solid object first.


« Last Edit: March 10, 2010, 09:33:21 am by Gardiner Westbound »
"When you invent a better mousetrap the mice tend to get smarter." - Willie Gingrich

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Re: Opinion: Sticky throttles - suggestions and solutions
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2010, 08:40:34 am »
I am always amazed to hear about people claiming "unintended acceleration"... I suspect in many cases it is simply a driver mistake, like pressing the accelerator in instead of the brake pedal. Even if it's caused by a sticky pedal, there are many, many things you can do to stop and avoid any accident.

It's a good thing that car manufacturers improve safety in the cars they build. However I can't help but think that drivers that can't control their vehicle should not be allowed to drive.

Offline Rupert

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Re: Opinion: Sticky throttles - suggestions and solutions
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2010, 08:44:14 am »
I prefer a good old simple mechanical linkage but it seems that the accelerator pedel has to be connected to a module now. Is this because of direct fuel injection?

Offline wing

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Re: Opinion: Sticky throttles - suggestions and solutions
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2010, 09:02:48 am »
I don't like the brake cancel function it means no left foot braking on the track :(

Offline tpl

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Re: Opinion: Sticky throttles - suggestions and solutions
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2010, 09:02:57 am »
I prefer a good old simple mechanical linkage but it seems that the accelerator pedal has to be connected to a module now. Is this because of direct fuel injection?


Many reasons.   In no particular order

Emissions
Economy
Cruise control
Smoother operation of the automatic transmission
Stability control systems
Cost to manufacture
Limp home mode.
Cold starting


The gas pedal is now just another digitized computer input that provides an indication of what the driver wants to do.
The Engine/transmission control computer (ECU)   modifies this input depending on a whole slew of factors and activates a stepping motor that controls the actual throttle plate**. Direct injection engines, if my VW workshop manual is correct, ALSO have the ECU exert micro management over the spark timing and the length of the injector pulse.  

This does leave many possibilities for sloppy or buggy programming to cause all kinds of problems AND of course, problems with some of the other sensors that provide inputs to the ECU.



** The BMW Valvetronic engines  IIRC don't have a throttle plate but they do have control over valve timing and opening area.

The most radical revolutionary will become a conservative the day after the revolution.

Offline wing

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Re: Opinion: Sticky throttles - suggestions and solutions
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2010, 09:03:50 am »
They do have a throttle plate but are only opened on initial startup

Offline whaddaiknow

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Re: Opinion: Sticky throttles - suggestions and solutions
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2010, 10:26:29 am »
I am always amazed to hear about people claiming "unintended acceleration"... I suspect in many cases it is simply a driver mistake, like pressing the accelerator in instead of the brake pedal. Even if it's caused by a sticky pedal, there are many, many things you can do to stop and avoid any accident.

It's a good thing that car manufacturers improve safety in the cars they build. However I can't help but think that drivers that can't control their vehicle should not be allowed to drive.

I am always amazed to hear about people claiming "the have won a lottery"... I suspect in many cases it is simply an urban legend... you get the point.

Just the fact it's never happened to you or you've never met a person who has experienced that, doesn't mean it's not true. Yes, mathematically speaking the chances are slim. But do you want to take the chance of being the lucky "winner" here?

In 2002, I bought my first new car, a 2002 Toyota Camry LE V6 from Tony Graham Toyota on Merivale Rd. The first model year that came with drive-by-wire. I had three serious problems with the car:

1) the check engine light came on and the whole accelerator assembly had to be replaced. It was replaced under warranty, something that would have otherwise cost me $1,200. So these things are expensive, not bullet-proof, prone to coding errors, and apparently didn't have all necessary overrides in place.
2) jerky transmission, 5 complaints and 2 reprogramming attempts later, the transmission was still a reason for concern.
3) you guessed it, my car would accelerate for no reason. Granted, it was never to the extent that I would lose control but was unnerving nevertheless. I'm not a car nut anymore but certainly not a tool and can tell the difference between driver input and onboard computer going haywire.
I would try to maintain speed on the highway at, say 90km/h on level surface (no inclines or declines) and the car would all of a sudden begin to accelerate - something that would normally require the throttle to be at 3/4 or so. This has happened BOTH while the car was under cruise control with right foot on the floor and with foot on the gas pedal, so what driver error are we talking here exactly?
Stepping on the brakes seemed to cancel that behaviour every time for me but it was cause for a few WTF's and a few gray hairs. My wife has experienced the exact same thing driving the same car. The dealer of course completely dismissed my complaint.

1 month before the warranty expired, I traded it in. I will avoid conflict if I can. Needless to say, I'm not a huge fan of Toyota. But I doubt others are any better.

Here's another one. Nothing to do with Toyota.

My brother used to drive a 2007 Hyundau Sonata V-6. 2 years ago, as he was merging onto the freeway, he floored it. Once the desired speed was reached (around 70mph), he let go of the pedal but the car continued to accelerate at full blast. At around 95mph (he lives in the States) he turned the key in the ignition and killed the engine.
The dealer acknowledged there had been several complaints of this nature (that was back in 2008) and replaced the entire pedal assembly and control unit under warranty.
January 12 of 2010, the exact same thing happens again. This time, the dealer refused to acknowledge the problem as this could potentially mean BIG $$$$$ in light of what's going on with Toyota.
They did an emergency brake test, instead, to make sure the brakes can still overpower the engine.

But let me ask you this. How would you feel about slamming on the brakes at 95mph on an icy road? Does it sound safe to you? I didn't think so.

After submitting a complaint to NHTS and telling the dealer he didn't feel safe driving the car anymore, they cut him a killer deal on a brand new Mazda CX-9 and offered him $1,000 over Kelly blue book on his trade to keep him happy and quiet.

I hope they take that car apart and figure out what's wrong with the sticky acceleration before it spins out of control. And kudos to the dealer for keeping the customer happy.

Now, let's hope we all benefit from this by ensuring the manufacturers provide us with safer vehicles.

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Re: Opinion: Sticky throttles - suggestions and solutions
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2010, 11:53:47 am »
Thats why I drive a manual transmission vehicle. If the car is trying to accelerate without my intention, I just step on the clutch.

My 2002 CRV, when the engine is cold, it can REV up to 2500rpm,  lucky I have the clutch pedal, I just step it in and let it Rev like hell on is own until all of a sudden it will lower down back to 1100 rpm.

if I experience the merge into highway with 70mph and gas pedal become sticky ..... I will do that same thing again, step on the clutch and see what will happen.

Too bad Honda stopped making manual transmission CR-V, ..... lets hope they will bring the TSX Wagon with a stick shift. ....


Offline safristi

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Re: Opinion: Sticky throttles - suggestions and solutions
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2010, 11:58:05 am »
.....A)   quit chokin' tha Chicken....................... :nono: :hide:
Time is to stop everything happening at once

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Re: Opinion: Sticky throttles - suggestions and solutions
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2010, 12:44:02 pm »
 ::)
It's easy to say push the brake as hard as you can but old men and woman or people who drive occasionnaly even normal people will never stay calm and react properly.
Most of the people panic and freeze or will react doing improper action.  Even good and above average driver in that situation have to make split second decision it's not easy.

Toyota should fix the problem for all the drivers skilled or unskilled one and I think the people who buy Toyota they are not on the skill side of the spectrum.  I mean good driver will buy a car with good handling and Toyota cars are appliances.  I do not say drivers of Toyota are bad it doen't reach the one who appreciate driving a car.

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Re: Opinion: Sticky throttles - suggestions and solutions
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2010, 01:01:19 pm »
The simplest solution is to shift the transmission into neutral. Once you've stopped the car, you can turn the key off to avoid engine damage. Frankly, drivers who don't know this should not be licenced! ! ! Those who don't have this instinct ought to consider their understanding of driving... If you have time to call 911 and have a conversation about your stuck gas pedal, you could have easily hit your emergency flashers, shifted into neutral and coasted to the right hard shoulder...

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Re: Opinion: Sticky throttles - suggestions and solutions
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2010, 02:34:56 pm »
If condensation is causing unintended acceleration (UA) cold climate Toyotas would be most affected. That isn't the case. Yesterday's runaway Prius is a California car.

NHTSA has not received a single BMW, Mercedes or Volkswagen UA report. They all have brake override software. Toyota's bean counters shaved a couple of dollars by omitting it. The piper is being paid.

A car's brakes will stop a vehicle at full power, if you have the presence of mind to stay on them and don't hit a solid object first.




Today, 3/10/2010, the driver of the Prius, a Mr. Spikes, has been brought in into questioning by the Local Police for questioning.  He is suspected by creating a hoax with his Prius.  It is this type of opportunist people and new media frenzy that blurs out the truth, I just don't think Toyota would chasing the wrong goat.  Their business model is not known for just throwing away billions and not fixing the real problem. 

Good article though.

Offline johngenx

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Re: Opinion: Sticky throttles - suggestions and solutions
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2010, 03:13:23 pm »
It's going to get a lot worse.  Audi's experience will pale in comparison thanks to the new sensationalism of the media combined with the internet.

Look at the chart of tens of thousands of US complaints.  What kept VW, or Volvo, or any other maker form becoming the "new Audi" of the UA world?  Nothing but pure luck.  Toyota has a lot of cars on the road, most driven by "normal" people.  Toyota is a mass market firm, and this makes them susceptible.

The US people need things to be afraid of.  They need runaway cars, plane hijackers, plagues, and anything else that has literally almost no chance of killing them to strike fear in their hearts.  This way they can ignore the real things that kill them.  Heart disease is the biggest killer of people, and yet they eat fat-burgers in record quantities and lay on the couch and stuff Pringles in their gaping maw.  They fear random crime, so they buy guns and keep them under their pillow, resulting in way more accidental discharges than any cases of people truly defending their lives in a live/death situation.  It goes on and on.

They (and we have some of it too) have a culture of irrational fear.  Combine this with a love of attention, a dislike of accepting personal responsibility and we've got the strong possibility of people being on camera ranting about their runaway car.

Offline Zombie

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Re: Opinion: Sticky throttles - suggestions and solutions
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2010, 03:49:57 pm »
Not about Toyota but related to the topic:

Back a few years ago when I had a 2000 Civic SIR it was really cold below -20 and gas seemed to be stuck on. The pedal wasn't stuck since I checked it with my foot. I put the car in neutral, it red lined repeatably and I turn the engine off and then back on. It scared the crap out of me but it never happened again.

I suspected some condensation froze on me throttle wire holding it open but is that even possible?
Can frozen condensation really hold a throttle open?
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Offline whaddaiknow

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Re: Opinion: Sticky throttles - suggestions and solutions
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2010, 04:10:07 pm »
Not about Toyota but related to the topic:

Back a few years ago when I had a 2000 Civic SIR it was really cold below -20 and gas seemed to be stuck on. The pedal wasn't stuck since I checked it with my foot. I put the car in neutral, it red lined repeatably and I turn the engine off and then back on. It scared the crap out of me but it never happened again.

I suspected some condensation froze on me throttle wire holding it open but is that even possible?
Can frozen condensation really hold a throttle open?

That's excatly what my brother suspected in both cases on his Sonata. In both instances, it happened during the winter time with temperatures just below freezing. And in both instances he floored the pedal before the accelerator got stuck. My reaction when he told me was also "maybe some metal plate got stuck due to frozen condensation?" The dealer ignored that and chose to replace the whole assembly after the first incident. Then it happened again 2 years later, same conditions, same scenario. This time, the solution was to get a new car. Luckily, it ended well for both parties.

But what about those who get a brain freeze when the UA happens and they crash? Whose fault is it? Like many here have said, some manufacturers cut corners saving on basic safeguards. And for that, they should pay. IMO.

Offline robsaw

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Re: Opinion: Sticky throttles - suggestions and solutions
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2010, 09:55:22 pm »
My old 1975 Honda Civic had a bad habit of throttle-sticking in cold-damp weather.  Of course it was condensation freezing in/on/around the carb, linkage and cable.  Several times I had to shut-off the engine, pull-over, and wait a minute or two for the under the hood heat to thaw things out.  Of course, that car had no power-assist anything to worry about with the ignition off.

Offline chrischasescars

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Re: Opinion: Sticky throttles - suggestions and solutions
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2010, 08:53:55 am »
I used to own a Hyundai Accent as a beater, and if I recall, the throttle body on its engine was heated by engine coolant to prevent throttle icing. I don't know how common that is/was in cars with cable-op throttles.

EDIT: Here it is - http://www.elantraxd.com/DIY/tbb.php This is to disable the throttle body coolant lines an older Elantra, but same idea. I wonder when automakers started installing heated TBs.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2010, 08:57:51 am by stickshift »
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Re: Opinion: Sticky throttles - suggestions and solutions
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2010, 03:10:53 pm »
I used to own a Hyundai Accent as a beater, and if I recall, the throttle body on its engine was heated by engine coolant to prevent throttle icing. I don't know how common that is/was in cars with cable-op throttles.

EDIT: Here it is - http://www.elantraxd.com/DIY/tbb.php This is to disable the throttle body coolant lines an older Elantra, but same idea. I wonder when automakers started installing heated TBs.

AFAIK heated intakes and throttle bodies are to prevent icing up.  This is because after the throttle plate there is a pressure drop, this causes a temperature drop as well which can condense water out of the air and ice it up internally.  It's been around forever in aircraft and carbed vehicles.  I don't recall it being blamed for stuck throttles though.
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Re: Opinion: Sticky throttles - suggestions and solutions
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2010, 04:02:59 pm »
I used to own a Hyundai Accent as a beater, and if I recall, the throttle body on its engine was heated by engine coolant to prevent throttle icing. I don't know how common that is/was in cars with cable-op throttles.

EDIT: Here it is - http://www.elantraxd.com/DIY/tbb.php This is to disable the throttle body coolant lines an older Elantra, but same idea. I wonder when automakers started installing heated TBs.

AFAIK heated intakes and throttle bodies are to prevent icing up.  This is because after the throttle plate there is a pressure drop, this causes a temperature drop as well which can condense water out of the air and ice it up internally.  It's been around forever in aircraft and carbed vehicles.  I don't recall it being blamed for stuck throttles though.

Oh no, I wasn't implying that the heated throttles are to blame, but wondering if that design was indeed to prevent throttle icing.