Author Topic: Re: Etching and Nitrogen Fees  (Read 321859 times)

Offline blotter

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Re: Etching and Nitrogen Fees
« Reply #180 on: April 21, 2014, 10:19:11 am »
the people at the Fiat dealer where my wife got her car said we can stop in anytime to have the tires re-filled / topped up with nitrogen at no charge.

we have yet to test this.

Offline tooscoops

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Re: Re: Etching and Nitrogen Fees
« Reply #181 on: April 21, 2014, 12:52:36 pm »
air at no charge?! gasp!

heh... i think that's something all nitro companies do. our air pig broke and the guys turn the compressor off at night... if we ever get anyone in during the evening with low tire pressure... i just give em nitrogen... we don't even mention it to customers that we offer it. if they mention it, sure... otherwise, they just get air and it's free.

as for my comment on the last page... customers have a right and an ability to leave any dealership that forces them to get anything... when it's done up front, the customer just has to decide if the final price is still worth it.... when its tacked on after a deal is signed?  that's criminal in my mind. whether it's for a product with value or without.

but i still say a store has a right to sell any product it wants. a fool and their money will soon be parted. it's up to the store to decide how it wants to be perceived... most stores will take the higher possible profit margins and at least attempt to sell some kind of "value added" options. if they are willing to sell the snake oil, i'm sure it loses a sale or two, but in the end, they are there to make a profit.

This is coming from a "nice guy" who doesn't push any items on anyone and is truthful to his customers... i lose more deals by not trying to trick people than these jerkfaces lose by being douches. so i don't like them, but i also don't like uninformed customers.



i used to be addicted to soap, but i'm clean now

Offline johngenx

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Re: Re: Etching and Nitrogen Fees
« Reply #182 on: April 21, 2014, 12:56:32 pm »

but i still say a store has a right to sell any product it wants. a fool and their money will soon be parted.

I disagree.  We have consumer protection laws to protect people from scams and shams.  We should be able to assume that any licensed business is selling products that do indeed provide the service for which they are advertised.  Nitrogen in tires for consumers is BS.

Offline tooscoops

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Re: Re: Etching and Nitrogen Fees
« Reply #183 on: April 21, 2014, 01:29:19 pm »
just teach your students not to be moronic when they grow up! easy peasy!

i just have a different opinion, and i totally respect yours (and understand it)... but i'm big on removing a lot of the protection out there and let nature sort itself out.

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: Re: Etching and Nitrogen Fees
« Reply #184 on: April 21, 2014, 01:46:39 pm »
just teach your students not to be moronic when they grow up! easy peasy!

i just have a different opinion, and i totally respect yours (and understand it)... but i'm big on removing a lot of the protection out there and let nature sort itself out.

Mantra of the snake-oil salesman.

Insurance companies that offer complicated policies which no one will ever collect on. Financial institutions that put together complicated instruments that almost destroyed global finance in 2008. There is always someone more clever, and less ethical, to take advantage of those less well versed in a particular field.
That's where governments should step in to limit predatory and/or fraudulent behaviour.
On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last, and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron.

H. L. Mencken

Offline tooscoops

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Re: Re: Etching and Nitrogen Fees
« Reply #185 on: April 21, 2014, 03:36:18 pm »
i must admit.. i'm not a fan of people here calling me a snake oil salesman... (whether beating around the bush about it or direct).

i'm pretty damn sure i'm a more honest and ethical guy than most on here or anywhere. i just firmly believe that many people are stupid and i'm starting to hate that. i'm sick of dealing with people who need help tying their shoes in the morning, yet i get treated like an ass because i let them buy something. (and i don't push nitrogen, rust modules, etching, etc.)

my "mantra" as you call it is more about everything... lets even remove the warning labels on things and if people are too dumb to figure it out, let whatever happen happen...

i feel like i keep backing myself into a corner here... for the record... i do not overcharge for anything... i do not push any crappy product on my customers... i do not add any numbers to prices... i do not mislead people in any way.  my statements are more about life in general, not how i do business.

Offline Black Hatch

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Re: Etching and Nitrogen Fees
« Reply #186 on: April 21, 2014, 03:44:45 pm »
I think tooscoops is more worried about the ridiculous "warnings labels" and nanny state.

Nitrogen and etching should be available to buy but it's up to consumers to determine their worth if they want it.

Offline sailor723

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Re: Re: Etching and Nitrogen Fees
« Reply #187 on: April 21, 2014, 03:48:17 pm »
i must admit.. i'm not a fan of people here calling me a snake oil salesman... (whether beating around the bush about it or direct).

i'm pretty damn sure i'm a more honest and ethical guy than most on here or anywhere. i just firmly believe that many people are stupid and i'm starting to hate that. i'm sick of dealing with people who need help tying their shoes in the morning, yet i get treated like an ass because i let them buy something. (and i don't push nitrogen, rust modules, etching, etc.)

my "mantra" as you call it is more about everything... lets even remove the warning labels on things and if people are too dumb to figure it out, let whatever happen happen...

i feel like i keep backing myself into a corner here... for the record... i do not overcharge for anything... i do not push any crappy product on my customers... i do not add any numbers to prices... i do not mislead people in any way.  my statements are more about life in general, not how i do business.

All the above may be true but you appear to be defending the offering of snake oil-like products such as nitrogen filled tires or electronic rust modules as being acceptable business practises. IMO they are not.
Old Jag convertible...one itch I won't have to scratch again.

Offline tooscoops

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Re: Re: Etching and Nitrogen Fees
« Reply #188 on: April 21, 2014, 03:56:18 pm »
Quote
All the above may be true but you appear to be defending the offering of snake oil-like products such as nitrogen filled tires or electronic rust modules as being acceptable business practises. IMO they are not.

yep, guilty. i condone the OFFERING of anything. it's the forcing or sneaky inclusions of it that i totally don't condone.

Offline blotter

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Re: Etching and Nitrogen Fees
« Reply #189 on: April 21, 2014, 04:09:31 pm »
Quote
i just firmly believe that many people are stupid and i'm starting to hate that. i'm sick of dealing with people who need help tying their shoes in the morning,


This comes with the absolute joy of a job that deals with the public.
There are days I want to get up off my desk and run out the building through the windows - the break free.  I've been dealing with the public for over 15 years in various jobs and levels of authority.

I highly believe the longer you deal with the public, the more you begin to hate people because you realize just how stupid some people are.

Offline sailor723

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Re: Re: Etching and Nitrogen Fees
« Reply #190 on: April 21, 2014, 04:13:35 pm »
Quote
All the above may be true but you appear to be defending the offering of snake oil-like products such as nitrogen filled tires or electronic rust modules as being acceptable business practises. IMO they are not.

yep, guilty. i condone the OFFERING of anything. it's the forcing or sneaky inclusions of it that i totally don't condone.

So trying to rip somebody off in a business transaction is OK and if they are naive or stupid enough to fall for it that's their fault?

Offline Black Hatch

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Re: Re: Etching and Nitrogen Fees
« Reply #191 on: April 21, 2014, 04:28:29 pm »
Quote
All the above may be true but you appear to be defending the offering of snake oil-like products such as nitrogen filled tires or electronic rust modules as being acceptable business practises. IMO they are not.

yep, guilty. i condone the OFFERING of anything. it's the forcing or sneaky inclusions of it that i totally don't condone.

So trying to rip somebody off in a business transaction is OK and if they are naive or stupid enough to fall for it that's their fault?

Sure why not?
It's call negotiating.
Some people don't know how to do it.
Or you rather people pay the same for everything?
Nothing would ever be on sale and no market fluctuations.

Offline blotter

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Re: Re: Etching and Nitrogen Fees
« Reply #192 on: April 21, 2014, 05:03:49 pm »
Quote
All the above may be true but you appear to be defending the offering of snake oil-like products such as nitrogen filled tires or electronic rust modules as being acceptable business practises. IMO they are not.

yep, guilty. i condone the OFFERING of anything. it's the forcing or sneaky inclusions of it that i totally don't condone.

So trying to rip somebody off in a business transaction is OK and if they are naive or stupid enough to fall for it that's their fault?


I'm going to play the devils advocate.

when you sell something... do you try and get the best price?
let's say you put something for sale at a reasonable price and someone comes along, not knowing and says, I'll buy it!   how about XXXX ....   If XXXX is way more than you originally thought of asking for, would you tell that person, oh no, you're ripping yourself off!   Just give me XX

???


Offline PJ

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Re: Etching and Nitrogen Fees
« Reply #193 on: April 21, 2014, 06:13:04 pm »
The price doesn't bother me as much as people making false claims.  If someone claims a product does something and it doesn't then it's fraud. 

Offline johngenx

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Re: Etching and Nitrogen Fees
« Reply #194 on: April 21, 2014, 06:40:37 pm »
We're not talking about negotiation of price.  We're talking about people selling products that do not work.  Products that do little or nothing at all, but can be sold to people using false claims.  That is illegal, should be enforced, and companies participating should not be fined, but instead closed completely.

Those electronic rust devices are a prime example.  They don't work.  Science (OMG, a dirty word) tells us that they work in certain environments, and your car is NOT one of them.

Warranties that can't be claimed on, insurance that is rigged not to pay out, and on and on.  It's not restricted to the car biz by any means, but car dealers seem quick to adopt products that have no value.  It's the large margins and the ability to scare people into thinking that they're missing out on a way to protect the second most expensive purchase of their lives.

Offline Triple Bob

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Re: Re: Etching and Nitrogen Fees
« Reply #195 on: April 21, 2014, 09:12:18 pm »
Quote
All the above may be true but you appear to be defending the offering of snake oil-like products such as nitrogen filled tires or electronic rust modules as being acceptable business practises. IMO they are not.

yep, guilty. i condone the OFFERING of anything. it's the forcing or sneaky inclusions of it that i totally don't condone.

So trying to rip somebody off in a business transaction is OK and if they are naive or stupid enough to fall for it that's their fault?

This.

I have bought three new cars in Canada, and been offered Nitrogen on all.  Some more forcefully than others.  As I said before it's not 'me' I'm bothered about, as I know it's a scam.  It's the many older and less educated people out there that fall for this crap.  I hate seeing people get scammed, and it's the vulnerable that get scammed more than others.  Why pick on those who can afford it less?  Too scoops? eh?

The electronic rust protection, the nitrogen, the globali stickers.  I mean, FFS, twice now I've been told that the globali stickers were mandatory, I told them to go :censor: themselves if they think I am paying for some stickers that they ALREADY placed on the car to protect their inventory on the lot.  I didn't ask for them, I'm not paying, period.

OK so by being edumacated, and and argumentative bastard, I've saved myself $1,000. But I've seen many people just pony up this extra cash (within the negotiation and without being forced, you listening too scoops?) which is basically scam money.  I agree, dealerships have to make a profit.  But it you have to make it through selling snake oil rather than selling cars, then yes, you don't deserve to be in business.

And if you don't like being called a snake oil salesman then stop defending the ripping off of innocent people.  You know how sales works, there is pressure, some people believe what they are told, people sign up for things without knowing any better, as they trust you.


Choosing a car based on reliability is like choosing a wife based solely because she is punctual. There is more to it than that...

Offline blotter

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Re: Etching and Nitrogen Fees
« Reply #196 on: April 22, 2014, 09:49:00 am »
Quote
We're not talking about negotiation of price.  We're talking about people selling products that do not work.  Products that do little or nothing at all, but can be sold to people using false claims.  That is illegal, should be enforced, and companies participating should not be fined, but instead closed completely.


ok, fair enough...  i do agree with that.   However it's certainly not exclusive to the automotive industry.
since the dawn of man, there's been snake oil sales on just about everything.

there ARE plenty of products out there using false claims and many industries are not regulated.
Cosmetics are one.  Plenty of snake oil and ads with false claims.
The entire vitamin and alternative medicine industry is another example, unregulated with plenty of false claims.    It's certainly not right.   I guess I'm in the middle of the road in feeling some people need to take the time to research and educate themselves while including some consumer protection.   However, I think you can place all the consumer protection measures in the world and the slicksters will find a way.

a perfect recent example.....
some friend's of my wife had signed a deal for a new Caravan.  They really knew nothing about buying a new car and did no homework.   The sales woman sold them every extra there was.    They got lucky. 
The financing didn't get approved, so they could back out of the deal.   They were totally taken advantage of, yet they didn't do any homework.     In this case I kind of blame both.

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: Etching and Nitrogen Fees
« Reply #197 on: April 22, 2014, 01:37:31 pm »
If the monroney sticker had the on-the road price, most of these deceptive practices would no longer work. Walk around the lot, see a car at the price you want, and that's the price you pay.

Back in 1993, Proctor and Gamble got taken for $195M by Banker's Trust. The trust had put together complex derivatives instruments, which at the time weren't regulated. The finance and legal guys at P&G couldn't see the depth of their risk exposure, when the bet didn't play out as predicted, they lost $195M. Not huge compared to the company, but pretty significant loss on what were supposed to be conservative hedges. There were lawsuits, a $200M settlement and eventually BT was bought out by Deutsche Bank then sold off in chunks.

http://www.businessweek.com/1995/42/b34461.htm

http://www.nytimes.com/1996/05/10/business/bankers-trust-settles-suit-with-p-g.html

If a sophisticated company the size of P&G can be taken, there's an excellent chance that an average person can be taken in easily.

Offline johngenx

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Re: Etching and Nitrogen Fees
« Reply #198 on: April 22, 2014, 02:24:41 pm »
There seems to be an attitude that "doing your homework" will make you immune to being scammed. Not so. As per SooL post above, pretty smart folks get scammed.

Consumers deserve protection from products and services that either don't work as stated or don't work at all. Weight loss products, anti-aging crap, and on and on needs to be dealt with, and harshly. The US is starting down this road. They just convicted some guy that sold bogus weight loss products and didn't give him some pathetic fine. They're throwing him in jail and for a pretty hefty sentence. At least the public will be protected from him for a while.

Canada is notorious for being lax when it comes to economic crime. Ponzi scenes rip people off for huge sums and rarely is anyone charged. Stock manipulations are never prosecuted. Steal millions with paper and you just walk. Steal $10 in a 7-11 with a your finger in your pocket pretending to be a fun and we will send you to jail.


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Offline bobajob

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Re: Etching and Nitrogen Fees
« Reply #199 on: June 09, 2014, 10:02:46 am »
is this only for a new car, or a pre-certified, or used car?

also the link is giving me a 404

here is a link from OMVIC regarding etching and any other unsolicited goods. Print it out and take it with you when you are purchasing a new car just in case they tell you you need to buy something you don't have to. If you paid for it already go back to the dealer and demand your money back. Should be a sticky?