Topic: Re: Etching and Nitrogen Fees

[Wheelboy]

i like to think i'm a decent sales guy,

Lived there EVER a sales person who thought differently?

i'm not gonna lie.. i've probably used all of them at some point in the last 15 years.

So you're admitting to be no different than the indecent ones?

[Northernridge]

the only way is pretty much to be there in person to tell... i've had too many customers get screwed by toronto dealers saying they have it in stock on the phone only to have it "sold just that morning" bv the time they get there...

the system dealers use to locate vehicles is WAAAY better than the other systems as it's updated with sales numbers to the factory. the problem is that not all dealers will trade with all other dealers.

i have lost two sales in the last month due to the other dealership not being willing to trade me the particular car i'm looking for. in both cases, i spent a few days attempting to sell other options/colours, but after enough of that, i realized how set they were, so i told them where it was. they went and bought it there. it happens. as a salesperson, i owe it to me and my dealership to at least try and keep the deal together... but at a certain point, you are just going to have a customer with a car they will always feel was a second choice.

in the end, "sorry there are none out there" can mean;
       there are none out there at all
       there are none out there close enough in distance
       there are none out there at dealers who will work with us
       there are none out there that i want to sell you (take what's on our lot)
       i didn't even look because what you want doesn't exist
       i didn't even look because i'm lazy

i'm sure there are others... but those are the primary ones... although i like to think i'm a decent sales guy, i'm not gonna lie.. i've probably used all of them at some point in the last 15 years.

What's a decent sales guy? One who can sell, or a decent guy that sells?

I think it's a guy that can sell...ethics is an adjacent category that go either way. But you can either sell or you can't. I don't think a person can stay in car sales very long without sales aptitude.

[tooscoops]

yeah.. a little of column a and a little of column b...

i make a decent living and have been a top numbers guy wherever i go... but i have some morals that prevent my numbers/profits from being ridiculous. as you say, someone who isn't that good won't be around all that long for one reason or another.

So you're admitting to be no different than the indecent ones?

i think yeah, i'm different. i'm sure 1% of people i deal with think i'm a jerk... if they feel that way, i can assure you they did something to initiate my jerkiness though! not all people who walk onto my lot are qualified to be my customers. that's something they don't all get. I'm not here to be abused and don't have time for it. and keep in mind 1% is like under ten people a year... and after 15 years of doing this, i like to think i can judge pretty well who is actually considering buying a car and who is wasting my time (or just not worth selling a car to)

had a guy a few weeks ago on month end... started off by saying he has a buddy who works at another dealer, so he's going to go there after. wants a truck that i know will be in extremely short supply (as in, *maybe* there is one in ontario) tells me he isn't willing to pay over invoice. tells me he wants a trade value that is over retail. and he tells me that i should do what he wants because he buys a new car every two years. plus, his tone and word choice are just offensive.

he got a "sorry there are none out there", which meant, i didn't even look. i can't think of the last time i did that, but it does happen. not without reason though.

[tooscoops]

I had a chance to chat with Peter Pocklington was back when he was in the car business.  He explained that the dealer didn't generate a lot of cash.  What it did do was give him an operation that allowed him to take up a bunch of real estate right at the edge of a growing city.  Eventually, the land appreciation was massive.  He folded the dealership, and made a killing on the land.  His ROI on the entire venture ended up north of 20% annualized.  Would I do that?  Nope.  A business needs to stand on it's own.

Many dealers I deal with:

The actual profit on sales of new cars is a drop in the bucket.
Sales of "auxiliary products" like rustproof warranty etc that have massive markup are a bigger part of profit.
The recurring service business that results from new car sales a huge part of the profit
Many operate large body shops that are fed from their group of dealers and that's another big source.

A new car sale is one transaction. If people being their car back to the selling dealer for service even while just in warranty its probably 20 repeat transactions. If you get in an accident you have a great chance of getting the job back into your shop as people feel comfort in returing to "their dealer".

In many ways new car sales is like selling those razor blade holders..the ones that come with a handle and two blades of $5.  They may make next to nothing on that $5 pack. But if you keep buying the $20 5 pack replacement blades month after month to fit that handle you make a lot of money. Same thing with Sony selling PS3 consoles essentially at a loss. The real money is after sales support.

My assumption is that dealers make their money in service.

I know a number of car dealer owners here in town. Not a single one of them is poor - quite the opposite. There must be money in it somewhere, tooscoops.

people who have millions of dollars to invest in a dealership aren't generally poor to start. car dealers had a time where they did very well and have had times where doors are shut because they can't pay the bills.

it's like every business that requires a lot of capital to start... it makes money in relation to the investment. but i will say it is less than many might assume. the perks are good though. hell, cars and all that comes with them are a huge cost for many people... take that off your books and i bet we all would seem a lot better off!

[Noto]

the only way is pretty much to be there in person to tell... i've had too many customers get screwed by toronto dealers saying they have it in stock on the phone only to have it "sold just that morning" bv the time they get there...

the system dealers use to locate vehicles is WAAAY better than the other systems as it's updated with sales numbers to the factory. the problem is that not all dealers will trade with all other dealers.

i have lost two sales in the last month due to the other dealership not being willing to trade me the particular car i'm looking for. in both cases, i spent a few days attempting to sell other options/colours, but after enough of that, i realized how set they were, so i told them where it was. they went and bought it there. it happens. as a salesperson, i owe it to me and my dealership to at least try and keep the deal together... but at a certain point, you are just going to have a customer with a car they will always feel was a second choice.

in the end, "sorry there are none out there" can mean;
       there are none out there at all
       there are none out there close enough in distance
       there are none out there at dealers who will work with us
       there are none out there that i want to sell you (take what's on our lot)
       i didn't even look because what you want doesn't exist
       i didn't even look because i'm lazy

i'm sure there are others... but those are the primary ones... although i like to think i'm a decent sales guy, i'm not gonna lie.. i've probably used all of them at some point in the last 15 years.

I really appreciate your posts, tooscoops!  That's really helpful, actually.  I always wondered why it was so bloody difficult to get a vehicle from another dealership, but that's true - "why should we give you our stock?  What's in it for us?"  Here, I thought that all cars come from the manufacturer, but clearly there's more to it.

Thanks for the insight.

[blotter]

the only way is pretty much to be there in person to tell... i've had too many customers get screwed by toronto dealers saying they have it in stock on the phone only to have it "sold just that morning" bv the time they get there...

the system dealers use to locate vehicles is WAAAY better than the other systems as it's updated with sales numbers to the factory. the problem is that not all dealers will trade with all other dealers.

i have lost two sales in the last month due to the other dealership not being willing to trade me the particular car i'm looking for. in both cases, i spent a few days attempting to sell other options/colours, but after enough of that, i realized how set they were, so i told them where it was. they went and bought it there. it happens. as a salesperson, i owe it to me and my dealership to at least try and keep the deal together... but at a certain point, you are just going to have a customer with a car they will always feel was a second choice.

in the end, "sorry there are none out there" can mean;
       there are none out there at all
       there are none out there close enough in distance
       there are none out there at dealers who will work with us
       there are none out there that i want to sell you (take what's on our lot)
       i didn't even look because what you want doesn't exist
       i didn't even look because i'm lazy

i'm sure there are others... but those are the primary ones... although i like to think i'm a decent sales guy, i'm not gonna lie.. i've probably used all of them at some point in the last 15 years.

I really appreciate your posts, tooscoops!  That's really helpful, actually. I always wondered why it was so bloody difficult to get a vehicle from another dealership, but that's true - "why should we give you our stock?  What's in it for us?"  Here, I thought that all cars come from the manufacturer, but clearly there's more to it.

Thanks for the insight.

my wife is very picky.   she once got "forced" to go to another dealership for a specific car because that dealership wouldn't trade it.  They knew, it was the last one in black available.   

more recently, at least the Fiat guy was honest saying he'll try a dealer trade to get her colour but said he might not have something they would be willing to trade.   (I never realized that when you buy something the dealership doesn't have, they actually trade vehicles with another dealership)

[tooscoops]

yeah, dealers own every car on their lot.. and they bought it for a reason. to trade it for one they don't want makes no sense. so if we get a call right now for a trade, the first thing we do is see if they have any 1500 diesels on their lot!

in the end, let the dealer do the harder work for you to see what they find. they may find exactly what you wanted and it saves you time and effort. if they say they can't find it and you are pretty particular, start looking yourself just to be sure. the exact car might be 10 minutes down the road, but with a dealer who doesn't do dealer trades.

warning though... most dealers that don't dealer trade are the same kind of dealerships that are very heavy handed and try some old sales tricks.

[Ex-airbalancer]

Who going to trade a 1500 diesel with  you

[tooscoops]

if they have sold anything, be it a cvp van, hemi truck, dart... a sale is a sale. if we have the only one to keep a customer happy, the will give us whatever it takes in most cases.

you can only sell a car once is how many dealers look at it... so if they sell a van and make a grand, but have to give up a truck to get it?... done. if they kept the truck, they can sell it and maybe make 1500... but the van is a done deal... bird in the hand and all that.

these are some of the little things that customers don't know/realize, i don't mind shedding some light.

[Britguy]

I hope Tesla starts to shake up the car dealership industry by selling direct.

But then again we've got States legislating against this to protect car dealerships.

What happened to capitalism and competition?

[Sir Osis of Liver]

I hope Tesla starts to shake up the car dealership industry by selling direct.

But then again we've got States legislating against this to protect car dealerships.

What happened to capitalism and competition?

That was only ever a myth to get rubes to go along with self-imposed serfdom. 

[nifty6]

Got an e-mail from a Hyundai  dealer with a list of new cars, 2014 and 2015 with special pricing. At the bottom of the page was this

*SELLING PRICE INCLUDES MSRP PLUS FREIGHT AND PDI (1650-1800), WHEELS LOCKS (85), ETCHING (199), AIR TAX (100), TIRE AND OIL LEVY (30.41) , PPSA (121), ADMINISTRATION FEE (499), OMVIC FEE (5)
 
The wheel locks might not be on the window sticker? if not they can't charge for it I believe unless you want them. Etching for sure is not on the window sticker so why are they charging for something we might not want? Unsolicited add on. What is PPSA?
Well at least they were up front with the charges but it still doesn't make it right. Nothing has changed at the dealers
 

[Triple Bob]

Got an e-mail from a Hyundai  dealer with a list of new cars, 2014 and 2015 with special pricing. At the bottom of the page was this

*SELLING PRICE INCLUDES MSRP PLUS FREIGHT AND PDI (1650-1800), WHEELS LOCKS (85), ETCHING (199), AIR TAX (100), TIRE AND OIL LEVY (30.41) , PPSA (121), ADMINISTRATION FEE (499), OMVIC FEE (5)
 
The wheel locks might not be on the window sticker? if not they can't charge for it I believe unless you want them. Etching for sure is not on the window sticker so why are they charging for something we might not want? Unsolicited add on. What is PPSA?
Well at least they were up front with the charges but it still doesn't make it right. Nothing has changed at the dealers

You can negotiate down the freight/pdi, and not pay the rest, depends on how much you want to argue.  I got the dealer to pay the air tax when I bought my golf.

[johngenx]

That long expensive list reminds me of why I don't bother shopping new cars now.  Ridiculous.

[tooscoops]

all the "all-in" pricing means is that they have to sell it to you for the price they advertise... that ad/e-mail means they will do that. if the price on the email was too high, then don't buy one there... at least they let you know what they charge and where it is going.

"negotiating" down the freight or air tax is just negotiating down the price... you can tell yourself whatever you want, but it is a fixed cost in the car. strangely enough, it is the one option/fee that dealers pay the same price as the final customer. so when anyone "discounts" the freight or ac tax, they are actually dropping the selling price of the actual vehicle, not those fees.

and nifty, they can charge you things that aren't on the window sticker. the only time it will become an issue is if the final price on the window sticker is lower than what you are paying (plus hst[or whatever] and plates)... until that point, window stickers are just to give an idea... almost every car is sold for a lower price than the window sticker... so you can say "i'm not paying 85 for wheel locks, it's not on the sticker!".. they'll say, "then pay the sticker price" which will most likely be thousands over the transaction price. still within OMVIC rules.

[Triple Bob]

"negotiating" down the freight or air tax is just negotiating down the price... you can tell yourself whatever you want, but it is a fixed cost in the car. strangely enough, it is the one option/fee that dealers pay the same price as the final customer. so when anyone "discounts" the freight or ac tax, they are actually dropping the selling price of the actual vehicle, not those fees.

Agreed.

[No H2O]

"negotiating" down the freight or air tax is just negotiating down the price... you can tell yourself whatever you want, but it is a fixed cost in the car.

Well I am still trying to figure out what the Admin Fee is all about. I mean, lets say the dealer was really nice and paid their admin people $25 an hour, what takes 20 hours to process paperwork? I am all ears.

And onto PDE, lets take a portion of the total..say $800. At the going shop rate of about $120 an hour, what does a licenced mechanic do to a new car for over 6 hours? Hell, you can do a clutch job in that time. Once again, I am all ears.

[tenpenny]

Remind me of lawyers charging for photocopying and such.




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[rrocket]

Remind me of lawyers charging for photocopying and such.




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Read this story:  http://jalopnik.com/this-insane-price-quote-is-why-you-always-look-for-hidd-1793202859?utm_source=recirculation&utm_medium=recirculation&utm_campaign=tuesdayAM

[johngenx]

Remind me of lawyers charging for photocopying and such.




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A friend of mine used to represent large insurance firms.  His admin office was a money machine.  He charged for every copy, staple, paper clip and on and on.  He was telling me that it had enough contribution margin to his business that it paid for his entire admin staff - leaving his hourly fees all for the practice.  Yay, thanks for making my premiums higher ya bast@rd.