Topic: Re: Etching and Nitrogen Fees

[toolatecrew]

What did I get for the [admin fee]?

See, I also have an issue with this.  There is no way to purchase a vehicle without going through an owner.  Accordingly, there is no basis for an "admin" or "convenience" fee.  There is something called the "cost of doing business."  For auto manufacturers, the "cost of doing business" includes the cost of running your dealership network - if you can't get the cars to the people, you can't make sales.

There is an additional issue I have with admin fees and or admin fees bundled with other things.

While I agree nitrogen is a rip of as is globali or the like if you are changed and pay for it you get a defined benefit.
I migth say hey break this out for me:

Nitrogen -$100 you get the tires purged twice and then tires filled with nitrogen. (Rip off but I know exactly what I get)
Globali- $200 4 windows, 6 body panels etched with a vin number, vin number registered and XXXX$ of additional pay out towards a new car from this dealer should the car be stolen.  (rip off but once again I know exactly what I get for my $200

now ADMIN... What doi I get..where is the breakdown. If I am going to pay $250 I want know what I get EXACTLY.
Likely the reason they won't break it down is becuase people would relaize what BS it is. In my case it would something like

15 minutes of admin time to sign paper work
1K drive to DMV and 15 minutes of admin time to wait for forms
50 cents in postage to mail form to you.

At which point we see what a bunch of BS it is. Plus as was said above..you can't sell emt eh car without doing these things.

[Noto]

and no worries about me leaving because of any disagreements on here noto... i appreciate people opinions. i would appreciate them more if they were slightly more open minded criticisms rather than blunt derogatory comments, but i take them in stride.

*teary-eyed* sorry tooscoops!!  I'll never doubt your business ethics again!

...in the end, i try to actually learn from issues people have in order to make the process a little easier.

for example, the nitrogen... we aren't getting rid of it here, so i've at least made it so that it's not on the cars until they are sold (to give the option of no admin) and also changed the process where the tires are filled and purged twice to at least do all we can to make it as good as it *can* be.

...and your customers thank you for that

[tooscoops]

ha! thanks noto... it's a sad state really.. i get compliments almost daily about my selling style and how trustworthy i am.. or at least seem to be!

well here is my usual breakdown... i don't give prices for each little bit though... in total it's 389.

admin is the catch all for all this etching, ride green, etc. what it includes is;
       purge x2 and fill tires with nitrogen
       2 year road hazard warranty (blotter, that is the general rule. replacement is if it can't be repaired)
       etching in 10 places, 4000 payout if stolen, up to 2500 if recovered and damaged
       clean up (depends on the car, but a pretty good one, esp. if used)
       1/2 tank of gas
       paperwork (rather than being lawyerish and breaking down faxes/copies/etc)
       wheel locks (on most cars... steels we don't usually bother)
       
I don't think it's too bad... just had a used white truck with the 121L tank... just the gas and clean up to get rid of the rail dust was worth the admin price... but whatever. i DO totally get that people don't want to pay more than they should...

what annoys me as a salesperson is that we MUST advertise those prices included... so the customers know they are there... and then they try to get it taken off... if the price was too high in the ad, why did you come in at all? meh.. little things.

[blotter]

1/2 tank of gas

i remember when it used to be a FULL tank of gas!
it surprised me to see the new standard is 1/2

[tooscoops]

well who are we kidding?... admin is a spot to try and not only cover costs, but at least try to make a bit more. when gas was hitting 1.50, a big truck would be using $150+ just for the gas...

but the main reason for it including a full tank previously is that manufacturers paid for it. if you see an old window sticker, it will say for example, "74L of gas" as a line item on the standard features side... they gave us a certain amount per car (not enough mind you) and it was a part of the PDI. a few years back, they started putting in about a gallon and the dealer was responsible for the rest

[blotter]

but the main reason for it including a full tank previously is that manufacturers paid for it. if you see an old window sticker, it will say for example, "74L of gas" as a line item on the standard features side... they gave us a certain amount per car (not enough mind you) and it was a part of the PDI. a few years back, they started putting in about a gallon and the dealer was responsible for the rest

So they basically downloaded the costs to the dealers.
that's interesting.   I was just saying as an observation though. 

[tooscoops]

oh yeah... i'm just saying from our side... customers think dealers are being cheap asses... when really, dealers are now putting in half a tank more than they ever did before.

some dealers really don't put in any... kind of funny. "yay my new truck! hope i make it to the gas station"

[Noto]

       wheel locks (on most cars... steels we don't usually bother)

I put wheel locks on my steelies after seeing something like this a few houses down in my totally safe suburb:


I don't mind paying for things that I want or paying an admin fee (necessarily), but it must be value-added.  Most would agree that the dealership experience is a pain, not fun (in most cases - I haven't dealt with you ), and ordering off the internet and having your vehicle shipped to your door would be nice.

I just hate paying for window etching when I have zero desire for it.  Sure, it's added value, but it's about as desirable (for me) as getting a colonoscopy. 

[toolatecrew]

ha! thanks noto... it's a sad state really.. i get compliments almost daily about my selling style and how trustworthy i am.. or at least seem to be!

well here is my usual breakdown... i don't give prices for each little bit though... in total it's 389.

admin is the catch all for all this etching, ride green, etc. what it includes is;
       purge x2 and fill tires with nitrogen
       2 year road hazard warranty (blotter, that is the general rule. replacement is if it can't be repaired)
       etching in 10 places, 4000 payout if stolen, up to 2500 if recovered and damaged
       clean up (depends on the car, but a pretty good one, esp. if used)
       1/2 tank of gas
       paperwork (rather than being lawyerish and breaking down faxes/copies/etc)
       wheel locks (on most cars... steels we don't usually bother)
       
I don't think it's too bad... just had a used white truck with the 121L tank... just the gas and clean up to get rid of the rail dust was worth the admin price... but whatever. i DO totally get that people don't want to pay more than they should...

what annoys me as a salesperson is that we MUST advertise those prices included... so the customers know they are there... and then they try to get it taken off... if the price was too high in the ad, why did you come in at all? meh.. little things.

You are sales..I get it you don't control the admin.

But limping all those charges by management into "admin" is pretty darn deceptive.

"paperwork" is supposedly a necessary part of the sales transaction.

Being required to buy wheel locks or additional insurance in order to get the paperwork done?

Clean up? On a new car ..really? How much is PDI on a new car? I don't know about you but that sounds like double dissping to me.

[blotter]

it's funny, we didn't really notice until the day after we picked the Fiat up.

Out for a drive, I was like... babe how much driving did you do???   You're already down to half a tank!
 


we got used to a full tank and just expected it!

[tooscoops]

i love how it's "lumping all those charges"

no problem.. we won't lump a thing... just pay 389 and i promise i won't do any of the extra stuff! personally, if the admin is the same price, lump away! fit as much as you can into it!

when you go to a lawyer, should it not be assumed that their might be a photocopy.. or a fax? why are we ok to pay separately there? or an activation fee on a phone? or a deposit fee on a can of beer? or an environmental fee on paint? if they know it will be charged, why not include it in the price?

pdi pays the tech .2 to .5 hours. not enough time to clean a car. hell, it's not enough time to pdi it! hence why i have to de-sticker them and calibrate compasses and why our clean up kid has to clean it up still and put in some gas.

it's funny.. people who assume a new car hardly needs a clean up are the first people to complain their new car isn't clean enough when they get it... (not saying that about you, just that it seems to be the case most of the time.)

[rrocket]

I'm going to go to your lot incognito and get you to try and sell me a car. I'll report back on how ethical you seem.....

[toolatecrew]

i love how it's "lumping all those charges"

no problem.. we won't lump a thing... just pay 389 and i promise i won't do any of the extra stuff! personally, if the admin is the same price, lump away! fit as much as you can into it!

when you go to a lawyer, should it not be assumed that their might be a photocopy.. or a fax? why are we ok to pay separately there? or an activation fee on a phone? or a deposit fee on a can of beer? or an environmental fee on paint? if they know it will be charged, why not include it in the price?

pdi pays the tech .2 to .5 hours. not enough time to clean a car. hell, it's not enough time to pdi it! hence why i have to de-sticker them and calibrate compasses and why our clean up kid has to clean it up still and put in some gas.

it's funny.. people who assume a new car hardly needs a clean up are the first people to complain their new car isn't clean enough when they get it... (not saying that about you, just that it seems to be the case most of the time.)

Sure go ahead charge like a lawyer.

Itemize everything.

In my recent example like I said  max 15 minutes of paperwork and a 0 cent stemp.

Try to itemize that out and chrge $250.

Just when people start to have a little sympathy for you since you are sales and don't control those fees you tear it all down by trying to defend them

Its a cost of doing business to clean the cars you are trying to sell. you are welcome to try to sell dirty cars. See how far you get.

Next thing you know we will hear the excuse that part of the admin fee goes to clean the snow off the cars in the winter. mind you its pretty hard to sell any cars if they are buried under 3 feet of snow but hey don't stip that from slapping an admin fee on to cover it.

Its BS like that that makes me want to present a bill for MY time when I buy a car. Leave me waiting in your office for 15 minutes while you check with you manger..that will be $100 my time isn't free.

[blotter]

in the end I'm not really so sure what the big deal is.

it's really the line and word admin fee that's pissing some people off.

ok... maybe dealerships should simply wipe it out and just give less a discount?
at the end of the day, as mentioned, final price including the admin fee is what people should be concerned about. 

if you walk to lot A thinking; I want car XYZ for $20K and you pay $19,800 + $200 admin.... who cares?


We can argue about value until the cows come home.
Realestate..... Commission.
Financial Institutions
Insurance

pretty much anything you get that's not on a store shelf will have "admin fees" of some sort... usually not even listed but built into your cost.   


Comparing shoes to a car just doesn't quite work..   what's the markup on shoes?  like 1000%  ?
Maybe you're not paying an "admin" fee, but you can be sure that everyone is getting a share of the pie to cover costs. 


I'm saying this in terms of a full defence of admin fees, but I think after negotiating our last vehicle purchase, I've learned to simply look at getting a specific price and not worry about how we get to it.

At the end of the day, I think everyone walks away wondering if they could have gotten a better deal.
Taking the "admin fee" off the invoice or even giving more detail isn't going to change the outcome.

[ArticSteve]

When you go to your local new car dealer and they give you the price for the whole shooting match, you say nothing, you bow, present your payment or your John Hancock, usually the latter, and then you say "Thank you for the privilege oh great ones".  You bow again and then depart as quickly as possible and wait in the service area still summoned.   It's just that simple.

[Noto]

when you go to a lawyer, should it not be assumed that their might be a photocopy.. or a fax?

Actually, that's all in our retainer, which is explained thoroughly to any new client before they are even given a chance to sign.  I let them read it, then go over it section by section, then allow for any questions (if they haven't already come up).

...and photocopy/fax charges are considered "disbursements," which, if assessable, are paid for by the Defendant at the time of settlement or judgement.  The client really doesn't pay the disbursements, even though it seems like they do.

...but that's just in a lawyer's defence.

What I dislike about the 'admin' fee is that there's simply no other avenue in which to purchase a car.  These are all extra costs that are being pushed to the consumer for what is the cost of doing business.  IF a manufacturer wants to add on fees to offset dealership costs, then lump it into MSRP.  If MSRP is too high on the basis of these costs, then that's competition for you.

As far as PDI is concerned, I think some things are fair, others less so.  I understand PDI covers the fluids that are not shipped in the car (a FULL tank of gas (I'd be livid if my new car came with 1/2 a tank - when did that start?  Our 2010 Corolla got a full tank and the 2011 Forster did as well.  My brother's Crosstrek, purchased in May also came with a full tank of gas - and there was no admin fee), washer fluid, oil top up, etc.).  I just don't accept that freight + PDI is $1700 on a compact car.  I understand why freight is higher in Canada vs the US (population density), but there's clearly more profit made in Canada on those charges.

In any event, I don't care if there are costs to the dealerships.  It's not fair.  The cost of doing business is not supposed to be 'fair.'  It is the cost, and if some businesses can thrive without having an "admin" fee tacked on, then why can't others?

Tooscoops, none of this is directed at you.  I simply don't like add-on fees.  I want it all tacked into MSRP and I don't want to deal with negotiations or wondering if I paid the same amount as my neighbour did for the same cookie-cutter car.  Vehicle sales are complex - no question, but I think there's a better way and there are people better equipped than I to determine what that way is.  The system as it stands is clearly flawed, however.

[tooscoops]

*i'll post something after as well.. 2 new replies to read!*

hey toolate... i was reading my post back and realizing it probably came off as being defensive or even offensive, sorry bout that.. i was totally laughing as i was typing... as in, "haha! why not put a 3 page list of stuff in the admin! if you are gonna try and get it anyway, why not lump tons of stuff in there!"

and the comparing to lawyers.. why not comparing the beer store, paint store, cell phone, grocery store (5c bags), why pick the lawyer out? oh right.. because it is an attempt to make me look bad. and the 250 for simply the paperwork is your number not mine. by the time i back out the costs of all the other stuff in our admin (and i mean costs, not retail prices), there is about 100 leftover.

and my time spent doing paperwork for every deal amounts to probably 3 hours... still not worth the dumb money some dealers charge (and you are totally right about it just being a cost of business)... building the deal in my system, getting all the copies i need, faxing info to the insurance company, getting the license paperwork done (then the time/gas/annoyance of getting it actually done), printing off the stack of crap needed, getting it signed by all the right people on premises, getting the bank approval, after the fact sending it down to the bank to get funded...

a big thing i also need to take into consideration is that i do a lot more than most salespeople do... so when i defend the practices, i only am defending the way *I* do them... others, hey.. i can't speak for em, and from what i've heard, a little animosity is to be expected.


rrocket... heh... i'm not sure how incognito you could get!

and you are spot on blotter...  in the end... if price is the driving force, buy the car from whoever sells it to you for the lowest price, not who itemizes it in a way you like.

[johngenx]

A friend f mine owns a new home construction company. In the last few years he's migrated to an all salary structure for his sales staff. He's thrilled with the results and so are the staff. His observations:

The staff do all kinds of little things they refused to do before. They're in the office or in site all day and home prep and signage and all kinds of things are done promptly.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[johngenx]

Part 2 - hit send

The positive feedback from customers is up dramatically. Sales staff no longer strategize over customers and overall service levels are much higher.

Turnover is down. The staff have a stable income and like it.

It places a LOT of pressure on the company on terms of product supply and marketing. In order to keep those staffers around, you need to be moving product. This upward pressure has meant everyone is making more $$ overall.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[tooscoops]

don't mean to rag on lawyers noto. but as always, thanks for any clarifications on my assumptions!

as for the pdi, they actually differ manufacturer to manufacturer. like a diesel 1500 truck right now? pdi does not cover def fluid or gas. the articles that state that gas is a part of pdi is misleading.. it hasn't been included across the board for over 5 years now. so while you are not wrong to hope that all that is included, it is in fact, incorrect. sure they *should*, but that means little these days...


the way the customer is treated seems to be the big issue in the end.

i find a big problem is that there are a few different views.. the customer sees themselves as paying 40 grand or so... the manufacturer sees themselves making 3000... the dealer sees themselves making 2000... the salesperson see themselves making 250...

so the customer wants to be treated like they spent 40 g's.... but the other parties actually involved in the deal make so little that they have to do all they can to up their piece of the pie, so they scramble to get more.

not conducive to a good experience... as you say john... the whole structure isn't great... or good...