Topic: Re: Etching and Nitrogen Fees

[rrocket]

even the link you posted... the host factually states nitrogen has value. after all, it is used in indy and nascar, mandatory in commercial airplanes, as well as nasa and military applications. plus, SCA even has nitro registered and it is ISO verified...

It has zero value, because the inflators and process used by car dealers are certainly not what is used by F1, NASA, etc. Further, street tires will never see the swing in temps of a race tire during competition.  Nitrogen has merit in those application.  For a street car?  Nope.

Zero value.  It's shocking (not really on second thought) the lengths you'll go to defend this dealer gouging. 

[sailor723]

I have to say that I'm with rrocket on this one. Nitrogen and etching are just two examples of why the retail car sales industry has such a widespread reputation for being sleazy and dishonest.

[tooscoops]

it is 100% true that even a faulty system doing nitro will make the tire hold it's air better than regular air. and from my experience, that is a huge part of why people want it. the other aspect, all i know is that the tires get hooked up, purged, then the system puts in what i would assume is nitrogen (unless the tanks are filled falsely, which a dealer can't be held accountable for nor would i understand why they would bother going through with it)... i didn't see how the tires were done with that video, so i'm not sure if its a similar system... his test was not scientific by any means, but i do appreciate his findings.

the etching thing... i don't like it, but even so, it does offer something... to say it doesn't is like me saying insurance offers zero value, just because i don't use it. here is the spiel... etched cars have a $4000, 3yr replacement benefit if the vehicle is stolen and not recovered (on top of insurance payout). also, they have a plan that pays your deductible, up to 2500, for any repairs to a recovered stolen vehicle that needs repairs.

sure i don't plan on using it, but i don't plan on having my car stolen either...

at least it makes some dealers admin fees actually include something rather than paperwork.

and (yet)again, it all comes down to the fee charged. if it was free... my god, not to take it is pretty silly... if it is 1000, taking it would be ridiculous. so somewhere in the middle (closer to the free hopefully!) is where you want to be.

i love how i become the bad guy to rrocket for stating factual things and trying to explain how it works... the names he calls me would be akin to me telling the world people with long hair kick puppies... it's fact!!! i've seen a guy do it! and since you have long hair and are here now (doesn't matter that you seem like a decent, non puppy kicker) you are the worst puppy kicker in the world!

[rrocket]

i love how i become the bad guy to rrocket for stating factual things

You've stated nothing factual.  Nitrogen has no value added when used in street cars...apart from padding the pockets of dealers.  You've even admitted it yourself.."they at least have to attempt to profit somewhere"  The Rubber Manufacturers Association only recommends using nitrogen...when it's free, because it offers no benefits worth paying for to the consumer.  Even tire giant Michelin (the people who engineer, design and manufacture the tires!) recommends nitrogen only for tires used "in high risk environments” like aircraft landing gear and racing.  Just like pretty much every other study on the topic.  It's been debunked by Consumer Reports and on many enthusiast websites, like this one.  http://www.cartalk.com/content/scam-detector-7 

IT IS A SCAM.

Even ArcticSteve who's in the same business as you says it's a scam.  "Etching" was a brilliant scheme and a scheme it remains.  It's totally useless.  Just when you thought nothing could top that you get "Nitrogen".


And FWIW I have kicked dogs before.  Although IQ's hair is many times longer than mine and she's never kicked a dog.  So the jury may still be out on that one.  Unlike the evidence about nitrogen.

[tooscoops]

in november, the most common service call to our dealership is tire pressure monitors going off. the nitro seems to stop that. not only does it seem to stop from my point of view talking and seeing these hundreds of customers, but the science seems to back up the claim. the science also backs up the crazy high speed stuff, but like you said... who really cares? no one (hopefully) is driving fast enough for the speed issue to arise. some guy down in florida or something isn't going to understand or care about the temperature fluctuations up here.

anyway, i had only jumped back in here because i was bored... as i've stated before, i really don't like the stuff (nitro, etch) either, but i feel like it can be debated that it has (slight) value. all the "factual" stuff i have stated is 100% true; it's lighter, it's dryer, larger molecules... but in a daily driver, the larger molecule thing is the only real value, and even that is only if the fill-up was done properly.

hard to believe, but the etching probably has more value to it! i think both things are more scheme than scam though (depending on price... but then again, everything can be a scam if the price gets too high!).

i'm going to go kick some dogs and blame long haired guys...

[rrocket]

in november, the most common service call to our dealership is tire pressure monitors going off. the nitro seems to stop that. not only does it seem to stop from my point of view talking and seeing these hundreds of customers, but the science seems to back up the claim. the science also backs up the crazy high speed stuff, but like you said... who really cares? no one (hopefully) is driving fast enough for the speed issue to arise. some guy down in florida or something isn't going to understand or care about the temperature fluctuations up here.

Science, in theory, backs up many things.  However, real world practicality can be different.

For example in the Consumer Reports test, they inflated ~30 pairs of tires...one with plain air the other with nitrogen. Oh..they had to inflate/deflate the nitrogen tires several times to ensure they had "pure" nitrogen in there.  Imagine how much that would cost!    Anyways, they left the tires for a year.  They checked the pressure after said year.  The regular air tires lost .1 psi per month more than the nitrogen. .1 psi  Most consumer air gauges (and most garage gauges) can't even measure to .1 accurately.

So yes, science proved that you'll lose .1 psi more per month.  But in practical terms....the average consumer/garage wouldn't even notice....even if they could measure it.

[tooscoops]

oh i get it... but i was referring to the fluctuations in outside temperature and the effect they have on the tire pressure in my real world november stuff. the holding of the air seems to be helpful, but not as big a deal to the tps systems...

[Ex-airbalancer]

in november, the most common service call to our dealership is tire pressure monitors going off. the nitro seems to stop that. not only does it seem to stop from my point of view talking and seeing these hundreds of customers, but the science seems to back up the claim. the science also backs up the crazy high speed stuff, but like you said... who really cares? no one (hopefully) is driving fast enough for the speed issue to arise. some guy down in florida or something isn't going to understand or care about the temperature fluctuations up here.

Science, in theory, backs up many things.  However, real world practicality can be different.

For example in the Consumer Reports test, they inflated ~30 pairs of tires...one with plain air the other with nitrogen. Oh..they had to inflate/deflate the nitrogen tires several times to ensure they had "pure" nitrogen in there.  Imagine how much that would cost!    Anyways, they left the tires for a year.  They checked the pressure after said year.  The regular air tires lost .1 psi per month more than the nitrogen. .1 psi  Most consumer air gauges (and most garage gauges) can't even measure to .1 accurately.

So yes, science proved that you'll lose .1 psi more per month.  But in practical terms....the average consumer/garage wouldn't even notice....even if they could measure it.

Was there any range in temperature where they were stored?

[rrocket]

oh i get it... but i was referring to the fluctuations in outside temperature and the effect they have on the tire pressure in my real world november stuff. the holding of the air seems to be helpful, but not as big a deal to the tps systems...

Again...nitrogen won't make a difference in that situation, either.  At least for the temps we're talking about.

Nitrogen and Air behave similarly when the temperature drops.  (See the Ideal Gas Law if you want to do the math).  So whether they have air or nitrogen, when the temperature drops, the tire pressure changes.  On average, a drop in 10 degrees F results in a change of ~2%.  So if the TPS comes on when the air pressure changes by 5%, a drop of 20 degrees could trigger the TPS..whether filled with nitrogen or plain air.

Air/Nitrogen can behave rather differently in extreme temperatures, because normal air has more moisture (and varies from location to location, from air pump to air pump)....which is why nitrogen is recommended for racing tires, aircraft, etc.   It's mainly because in those extreme, dangerous conditions the "drier" nitrogen is far more predictable than the moisture in normal air.

[tpl]

^^^   No reason why you could not totally dry out "normal air" and put it into a tire then I think it would behave close enough to  an ideal gas at the temps and pressures we are talking about even though it is a mixture.   I'd guess that Nitrogen as supplied from a pure source in a cylinder is pretty dry and behaves like an ideal gas but nobody would go to that trouble in a car workshop air compressor to make the air totally dry.

[rrocket]

^^^   No reason why you could not totally dry out "normal air" and put it into a tire then I think it would behave close enough to  an ideal gas at the temps and pressures we are talking about even though it is a mixture.   I'd guess that Nitrogen as supplied from a pure source in a cylinder is pretty dry and behaves like an ideal gas but nobody would go to that trouble in a car workshop air compressor to make the air totally dry.

You are exactly correct.  In our shop, we use air driers.  Not so much for nomalization of the air itself but because moisture through the air lines rusts and ruins our very expensive tools and CNC machines.  And a simple air/water separator can't keep up with the air flow.

Some good garages and tire places have air driers on the air machines.  But as I point out...not everybody does.  Even so, even the places that don't have an air drier run air/water separators/filters and traps on their air compressors.  I'm sure you've seen them..I've included a pic.  Air that's filtered thusly is plenty good enough for tires in normal operating conditions.

[Noto]

^^Knowingly selling something that has ZERO real value to the customer (etching, nitrogen) is unethical IMO.

Whilst I agree with you here, Ron, I very much don't want to see either of you two go the way of safristi...don't leave us, Tooscoops!

?

I don't care if there are things sold with zero real value to the customer...I care when they're 'forced' upon you despite legislation requiring to the contrary.

When I helped my brother get his Crosstrek, I said "no" to the $300 etching fee.  The dealership knew they couldn't force the sale, so they said "that's fine, but all of our vehicles in stock are already etched and we can't give it to you for free because then we eat the cost of it.  We can get you one un-etched, but it'll take months."

...since my brother needed the car within MAX 3 weeks, and wanted a colour that isn't popular (Black, REALLY?!), we had to eat the cost - but I just pushed for a $300 more dealer discount .

Suffice it to say that I think these things should be OPTIONS, not the standard that is forced upon buyers who don't want to wait 6 months for their cookie-cutter vehicle.

[blotter]

^^Knowingly selling something that has ZERO real value to the customer (etching, nitrogen) is unethical IMO.

Whilst I agree with you here, Ron, I very much don't want to see either of you two go the way of safristi...don't leave us, Tooscoops!

?

I don't care if there are things sold with zero real value to the customer...I care when they're 'forced' upon you despite legislation requiring to the contrary.

When I helped my brother get his Crosstrek, I said "no" to the $300 etching fee.  The dealership knew they couldn't force the sale, so they said "that's fine, but all of our vehicles in stock are already etched and we can't give it to you for free because then we eat the cost of it. We can get you one un-etched, but it'll take months."

...since my brother needed the car within MAX 3 weeks, and wanted a colour that isn't popular (Black, REALLY?!), we had to eat the cost - but I just pushed for a $300 more dealer discount .

Suffice it to say that I think these things should be OPTIONS, not the standard that is forced upon buyers who don't want to wait 6 months for their cookie-cutter vehicle.

almost similar to the experience buying the Fiat.  If ms Blotter didn't want it so bad, I would have almost walked out of the dealership with a blown gasket.   When negotiating the price I was ready to battle it out of the etching fees.  (etching, wheel lock fees are packaged together)

First, he had a form which under OMVIC listed the $300 fee.   He came right off the bat saying OMVIC states they must disclose the fee.  I jumped right in and said, I'm not paying that and you can't force me to pay it.   Here came the same line, the dealer pays for this on all our cars we have to include the fee on here.   If you don't want to pay it, fine, I'm giving you an equivilant discount to offset this fee so you're not really paying for it.    That's when I wanted to blow up and walk out!!!!!!!   BS!  the "discount" is now actually $300 less because of this fee being "passed on" 

One thing I did learn through those negotiations is that maybe it's useless to be so focused on the fees.
I always thought, I want to know all the details on the contract and really know what we're paying but I think at the end of the day, if you know what YOU WANT to pay and you get that final price.... who cares how they lay it out on the invoice? 

[toolatecrew]

My recent used focus purchase the salesman started talking about how most dealers charge a $500 admin fee and they only charge $250 and how great that was.

I said I din't car if they charged me a 10K admin fee. All I cared about was the OTR price. The discount I got essentially covered that admin fee. It still showed on the bill of sale so in reality I was billed for ii and "received" the services  included with that admin fee.

What did I get for the $250?

I spent at most 15 minutes signing papers. It was a used car cash sale. There are 2 lines on the form OI had to sign. I provided a bank draft so no finance paperwork. They also needed to take the paperwork to Motor vehicles and give mew the new ownership. Its been 2 weeks and I still am waiting ("its "in the mail")

That's what you get for your $250. And that's why they are BS.

[Noto]

If you don't want to pay it, fine, I'm giving you an equivilant discount to offset this fee so you're not really paying for it.    That's when I wanted to blow up and walk out!!!!!!!   BS!  the "discount" is now actually $300 less because of this fee being "passed on" 

That's why I negotiate the discount, and then debate the etching fees afterwards so it truly is a further discount.  I know the dealership doesn't pay $300 for it.  Likely closer to $200, but still, that's not my fault that they go for deceptive or hand-forcing practices.  In the service industry, the buyer has the power, not the seller.  Nobody should have to wait MONTHS to buy a car unless you're doing the whole "BMW see your build" thing.  That's absurd.

What did I get for the [admin fee]?

See, I also have an issue with this.  There is no way to purchase a vehicle without going through an owner.  Accordingly, there is no basis for an "admin" or "convenience" fee.  There is something called the "cost of doing business."  For auto manufacturers, the "cost of doing business" includes the cost of running your dealership network - if you can't get the cars to the people, you can't make sales.

...it's all built into the MSRP, any way.  This is why I suggest going straight to a MSRP-only sale.  No question about pricing.  Want a car?  It's MSRP.  That's the price.  I want my auto transaction to be like buying a pair of shoes.  Gotta give them a try, but if you like them, pay the price on the box.  No sales, no haggles, no negotiations.

[aquadorhj]

  This is why I suggest going straight to a MSRP-only sale.  No question about pricing.  Want a car?  It's MSRP.  That's the price.  I want my auto transaction to be like buying a pair of shoes.  Gotta give them a try, but if you like them, pay the price on the box.  No sales, no haggles, no negotiations.

but shoes, in fact, go on sale all the time.   i bought last 3 pairs of shoes on sale.  and different stores have different sales for exactly the same product....



so you end up having different prices all over again anyway....

[Noto]

  This is why I suggest going straight to a MSRP-only sale.  No question about pricing.  Want a car?  It's MSRP.  That's the price.  I want my auto transaction to be like buying a pair of shoes.  Gotta give them a try, but if you like them, pay the price on the box.  No sales, no haggles, no negotiations.

but shoes, in fact, go on sale all the time.   i bought last 3 pairs of shoes on sale.  and different stores have different sales for exactly the same product....



so you end up having different prices all over again anyway....

...but no haggling/negotiations.  I did say "no sales" but I meant that it should be a defined price (i.e. MSRP is the price you pay, subject to clearout specials.  So if the car is $24,995, you pay that, + tax.  If it's on 'sale' (last year's stock clearance, for example, like shoes), then it's "$1,000 off - act now, only $23,995!"

I don't care if there's a sale to promote a product or to clear inventory...but the sale must be defined.

If you're buying a 2015 vehicle in 2014, it will depreciate slower than a 2015 vehicle purchased in 2015 or 2016.  The sale price is usually to give a discount to those buying an 'older' model in the current year.

[tooscoops]

the business is not like any other out there... you can't trade in your old shoes... the tax differences on things is tricky... there aren't different prices for an "employee", a "supplier" or just a regular customer... price advertising is done by the manufacturer... customers can pay and have access to invoice prices... and the biggest issue, dealer profits are so convoluted that even someone like me who is in the business (and have been for a decade and a half), is never 100% sure what we make on a car.

it's not a good system. i don't like it. but the problems are everywhere... from dealerships practices, customers expectations, manufacturers tinkering, and sales peoples abilities... it's not easy to "fix"

and no worries about me leaving because of any disagreements on here noto... i appreciate people opinions. i would appreciate them more if they were slightly more open minded criticisms rather than blunt derogatory comments, but i take them in stride. in the end, i try to actually learn from issues people have in order to make the process a little easier.

for example, the nitrogen... we aren't getting rid of it here, so i've at least made it so that it's not on the cars until they are sold (to give the option of no admin) and also changed the process where the tires are filled and purged twice to at least do all we can to make it as good as it *can* be.

[tooscoops]

  This is why I suggest going straight to a MSRP-only sale.  No question about pricing.  Want a car?  It's MSRP.  That's the price.  I want my auto transaction to be like buying a pair of shoes.  Gotta give them a try, but if you like them, pay the price on the box.  No sales, no haggles, no negotiations.

but shoes, in fact, go on sale all the time.   i bought last 3 pairs of shoes on sale.  and different stores have different sales for exactly the same product....



so you end up having different prices all over again anyway....

...but no haggling/negotiations.  I did say "no sales" but I meant that it should be a defined price (i.e. MSRP is the price you pay, subject to clearout specials.  So if the car is $24,995, you pay that, + tax.  If it's on 'sale' (last year's stock clearance, for example, like shoes), then it's "$1,000 off - act now, only $23,995!"

I don't care if there's a sale to promote a product or to clear inventory...but the sale must be defined.

If you're buying a 2015 vehicle in 2014, it will depreciate slower than a 2015 vehicle purchased in 2015 or 2016.  The sale price is usually to give a discount to those buying an 'older' model in the current year.

it gets tough with defined prices. but something like what many other products have where the "sales" are defined by quarters or time of year... as in, "max discount of 10% for Q1, max discount of 15% Q2, max 20% Q3, max 30% Q4, beyond, max 40%"

but the problems with that is there are so few products with as small % of profit. that thing from up there was a rough idea of what burton used to do... franchises who went over had to pay a fine and got warnings.. a few strikes and you weren't allowed to carry their product anymore. but those things were purchased at a set price and the msrp was a 100%+ mark-up. cars are purchased at invoice and in 80% of cases are sold below that and the manufacturer pays the dealership program money to make up the difference and (hopefully) profit. in the end, taking away sales bonuses, the avg margin is under 5%

[blotter]

for example, the nitrogen... we aren't getting rid of it here, so i've at least made it so that it's not on the cars until they are sold (to give the option of no admin) and also changed the process where the tires are filled and purged twice to at least do all we can to make it as good as it *can* be.

the local dealer who sold us the Fiat has Nitrogen / Admin / wheel locks / etching AND Tire Warranty lumped all together at $300

The one thing that made it easier to accept (aside the fact he did his best to say it was still getting discounted) was the fact it includes the tire warranty.  Now I didn't bother with reading fine print but was told anything happens to the tire, replacements are free (it's for 3 years I think?)