Topic: Re: Etching and Nitrogen Fees

[tooscoops]

might have to hunt through the OMVIC site... it has changed since 2010 when that original post was made.

i kind of avoided this thread for a while... guess i should have at least lurked to at least attempt to defend myself! no biggie though. i expect some of this stuff.

the products sold offer some value in some way(i should hope at least!)... i'm actually in total agreement that some products themselves are crap, but many of the crap products come with some significant warranties. and since i have never had any issues claiming those warranties, i outright tell the customer that they are really buying said warranty. some people, that's worth it.. others, no way.

i'm not all for taking advantage of people at all. i think some keep taking my words and making it fit their agenda... offering a product is what i had said. i don't ever want any product pushed even if it's a great one. if there are any products such as the etching that is already on a vehicle, sorry, but it is on there. i don't consider that pushing, because i will happily not send in your info and it costs 35 bucks or something which can be eaten into a deal. it's a part of our costs to cover our own vehicles just like any other overhead such as rent, insurance, interest whatever. only this coverage the outside company is willing to continue offering to the next buyer for a small fee.

someone will always pay less than someone else for a car... because of that, someone has always been "ripped off" in people's minds.

also, just to add even more.... i don't think people would have an issue if some places didn't charge ridiculous amounts for these things. as soon as stores/companies add huge margins on these products, it makes the whole thing seem shady(er)

i'm not trying to say that dealerships are right and all that... just trying to show the other side of the coin. it's not always black and white.

[mmret]

but i still say a store has a right to sell any product it wants. a fool and their money will soon be parted.

I disagree.  We have consumer protection laws to protect people from scams and shams.  We should be able to assume that any licensed business is selling products that do indeed provide the service for which they are advertised.  Nitrogen in tires for consumers is BS.

Draw the line where? Outright scams need to go away, but its not the state's job to protect everyone from everything.

Pure nitrogen is 21% more nitrogen than air. It is something, even if the effects are pretty hard to discern. If nitrogen does absolutely nothing, then you shouldn't object to, say, putting only air ex-nitrogen into your tires.

I saw a guy putting 89 into his Accord the other day. Should gas stations only pump the exact fuel that is required for your car?

Should all tires be priced according to some mathematical formula based on their measured performance in standardized tests, and then adjusted for size?

$200 jeans.

Monster Cables.

The list goes on.

You can't protect every idiot from everything. And you shouldn't bother trying.

[johngenx]

Suppose a gas station fills all the tanks with 87 and everyone that pays for 89 or 91 gets 87. I suppose that's a case of buyer beware. You're free to take the fuel and have the octane tested. Why would we bother regulating it?

There is no way for a lay person (Or practically anyone) to know if they received anything other than regular compressed air, and I'm willing to bet that there is no shortage of shops/dealers that charge for nitrogen and do nothing more than inflate the tires with normal compressed air.

We don't need to protect people from buying $200 jeans but we do need to protect them from buying something they're not receiving.


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[rrocket]

Plus it doesn't work....

[tooscoops]

as much as i'm usually on here not necessarily "defending" dealers, but trying to explain some of it... nitro is something I just don't get. sure my tire pressure monitors are annoying coming on when the weather changes... but all I have to do is top it up. no biggie. i'm not going to pay 200 bucks just so that doesn't happen...

yet nitrogen is one of those things that I actually have customers asking for it... we never mention it as even available, yet they ask. so for those people, am I expected to tell them not to buy something they apparently want?

on a side note... i'm not very happy; my dealership is changing the company they deal with in the business office... meaning we are now supposed to push a lot more stuff like the nitro, etc.... in the first week there have been some huge sales in there and i'm just not comfortable with it... we will be making some customers so upside-down pretty much forever... i'm thinking it could be the end for me.

[PJ]

but i still say a store has a right to sell any product it wants. a fool and their money will soon be parted.

I disagree.  We have consumer protection laws to protect people from scams and shams.  We should be able to assume that any licensed business is selling products that do indeed provide the service for which they are advertised.  Nitrogen in tires for consumers is BS.

Draw the line where? Outright scams need to go away, but its not the state's job to protect everyone from everything.

Pure nitrogen is 21% more nitrogen than air. It is something, even if the effects are pretty hard to discern. If nitrogen does absolutely nothing, then you shouldn't object to, say, putting only air ex-nitrogen into your tires.

I saw a guy putting 89 into his Accord the other day. Should gas stations only pump the exact fuel that is required for your car?

Should all tires be priced according to some mathematical formula based on their measured performance in standardized tests, and then adjusted for size?

$200 jeans.

Monster Cables.

The list goes on.

You can't protect every idiot from everything. And you shouldn't bother trying.

No one can be an expert on everything.  That does not make them an idiot.  While the government can't deal with every weasel that tries to rip us off I think it's our responsibility to point them out.  Educate people so they know which companies or dealership to not buy from again... ever. 

Only way to stop the crap. 

[tooscoops]

while no one can be an expert on everything, there is no reason that in 2014, you can't be knowledgeable on literally every subject you can imagine as long as you are given the warning that you will be discussing it...

how long would it take someone to google the car they are looking for?.. or make a phone call to a second dealer?... or buy a magazine and read a review?...

we are in the age of information, yet we are also in the age of lazy assed people... add to that the fact that we are in the age of protecting everyone from themselves. so no one is willing to go that extra mile (even though it's easy) to protect themselves, because some consumer protection people will do it for them after the fact.

while speaking for myself, no one needs to fear me, even if they are ignorant as all hell... in sales, you should never assume they are always in it for your best interests.. they are in it because they are making money. so you should always at least attempt to protect yourself with knowledge.

anywho.. was just bored, so i thought i'd throw a few more words in this thread... or kindling on the fire as it may seem!

[rrocket]

while no one can be an expert on everything, there is no reason that in 2014, you can't be knowledgeable on literally every subject you can imagine as long as you are given the warning that you will be discussing it...

how long would it take someone to google the car they are looking for?.. or make a phone call to a second dealer?... or buy a magazine and read a review?...

we are in the age of information, yet we are also in the age of lazy assed people... add to that the fact that we are in the age of protecting everyone from themselves. so no one is willing to go that extra mile (even though it's easy) to protect themselves, because some consumer protection people will do it for them after the fact.

while speaking for myself, no one needs to fear me, even if they are ignorant as all hell... in sales, you should never assume they are always in it for your best interests.. they are in it because they are making money. so you should always at least attempt to protect yourself with knowledge.

anywho.. was just bored, so i thought i'd throw a few more words in this thread... or kindling on the fire as it may seem!

Again....so if someone isn't as knowledgeable as they should be (by your thinking) that makes it right for you to rip them off?  Or at the very least, gives you a reason to feel OK about ripping them off? "It wasn't my fault...in this day an age they should have known better with all of the information available to them!"  Words from a true predator.

You sure aren't doing your character any favors by commenting the way you have in this thread.

[johngenx]

I can read a thousand internet articles on nitrogen, but I'm not sure how that helps me to ascertain that I actually received 100% nitrogen in my tires.

Same for octane in my fuel.  Or a thousand other things that I'm relying on the vendor's compliance.

[tooscoops]

again... i'm not at all condoning shops that outright lie regarding what they offer. that should go without saying. if they don't deliver what they have sold (full nitrogen, octane, whatever) then they are just pricks... whether they sell cars, apples or dentistry. to get protection from that..... THAT is what these consumer protection people should be there for... not to get you out of a deal that you signed because you said yes to etching, warranty, rustproofing and a 96 month finance.

i think that is where people are missing my point. a$$holes and cheats should be run out of business... if they blatantly lie about the product they sell, boo to them. but a "good" salesperson selling a product that has some value to someone... i don't have a big issue with. (some products i just don't believe in, so i have a slight issue)

and rrocket... i at no point supported "ripping people off"... i supported selling/offering products to a willing buyer.

[rrocket]

and rrocket... i at no point supported "ripping people off"... i supported selling/offering products to a willing buyer.

If you sell a product that doesn't work or has minimal value....that's ripping people off.  That's etching, nitrogen, rust modules, fabric guard etc.

[tooscoops]

nope. you are wrong. selling those products for over $___ is ripping people off. if offered them free, people will take them every time. so they have some value. the question is then, just what they are worth.

i'm not too different from you guys really. the stores that charge 800 for etching... 300 for nitro... plus 500 admin... force all of it on you.... I hate them. they are setting back the industry 30 years.

but with margins getting smaller (mainy due to customers having access to so much information/competition), they at least have make an attempt to profit somewhere... an extra 300 for nitro... admin... etch... I don't have an issue. just don't spring it after the deal is done or add it on advertised prices.

[ArticSteve]

"Etching" was a brilliant scheme and a scheme it remains.  It's totally useless.  Just when you thought nothing could top that you get "Nitrogen". 

In the end, it's the consumer who calls the shots on whether or not vehicle retailers get away with Admin Fees et al.  However, the reality is that most consumers are a combo or weak, compliant and just plain dumb.  They've either bought or leased the vehicle with imaginary money so they fold before even looking at their cards.

[rrocket]

but with margins getting smaller (mainy due to customers having access to so much information/competition), they at least have make an attempt to profit somewhere... an extra 300 for nitro... admin... etch... I don't have an issue. just don't spring it after the deal is done or add it on advertised prices.

Yes..and that attempt to profit is on the naive or the gullible, because I'm sure you don't tell those people that nitrogen (and other questionable items) have virtually no benefit for them and are a scam for the dealer "to make a profit somewhere". 

Like I said...spoken like a true predator.  Sometimes just because you "CAN" doesn't mean you "SHOULD".

Maybe when you retire you could make a career jump to bilking old ladies out of their retirement income over the phone or some similar phone scam?  You'd probably do pretty well since you're always trying to convince yourself that doing this sort of thing is OK (margins too small, people not doing their research, item has SOME value, etc..)

Watch this video..tell me honestly if nitrogen has any value afterwards.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knHeUF9JLzg

[ArticSteve]

Why all the hate on 2scoopes? Fack man, for years we sent all our crap trades to one location and sold them 0 down @ 24%.  Installed immobilisers which were programmed to turn the PCM off 10 days after every 60 days payment period.  Customer would attend at the store, pay in cash or CC and their immobiliser would be reset.  Nitrogen    That's peanuts in contrast. 

[rrocket]

^^Maybe you two should open a stealership dealership together?   

[ArticSteve]

It will named "Grand Slam Auto Sales".

Free hot dog and coke with every SLAM.  It doesn't get better than that! 

[rrocket]

It will named "Grand Slam Auto Sales".

Free hot dog and coke with every SLAM.  It doesn't get better than that! 

Back Door Slam Auto Sales....Free tub of Vaseline with every purchase!

[rrocket]

^^Knowingly selling something that has ZERO real value to the customer (etching, nitrogen) is unethical IMO.


YMMV on such things however...

[tooscoops]

even the link you posted... the host factually states nitrogen has value. after all, it is used in indy and nascar, mandatory in commercial airplanes, as well as nasa and military applications. plus, SCA even has nitro registered and it is ISO verified...

at the end of the video, (after explaining that the place he filled it at , it must not have been 100%) he said "it will keep your tires inflated longer", but "i don't think i'd recommend it".

he is saying the same thing i am... it has some value.. not nearly what some dealers charge, but it is something value added... also, most dealers that include nitro in the tires also include a 2 year "tire guard" road hazard warranty with it... that includes fixes on slow leaks or replaces tires due to blow-outs or sidewall damage.

you keep trying to go all black and white, but there is a grey area that provides a usable product, peace of mind and a bit more profit for dealers. (emphasis on *bit*... trying to fleece old ladies still isn't my thing).

oh, and i have had one claim go through with etching! the customer got 4 grand on top of his insurance payout to buy a truck off me... i'd say he was happy! it is a rare one to get used, but it does. i think if it as really cheap (limited) gap insurance.