Topic: Steering You Right: Laser proof

[Autos_Editor]

Laser guns are much more accurate than radar guns in determining a vehicle’s speed, and while it’s difficult to successfully contest a laser-based speeding ticket, it can be done, says lawyer Jordan W. Charness.
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[dougjp]

I have nothing to do with the law or anything related, my comments about this article are simply a reaction akin to that famous phrase from that old movie, Network, " I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it anymore!" If the situation as described can exist and be boasted about in an article, then I have a right to voicing an opinion too.

Client gets off! Whoohoo! Well this is illogical and silly. Is this "law"? Is this right or even acceptable in any form of society? Or is this kiddies playing games in a sandbox, see who fools the other first. And for a fee. Even the way this article is written, its clearly gives the impression that, tee hee, I pulled a fast one! Of course there was nothing wrong with the laser gun! My client was speeding, he/she knew it, and so did I going into court! A technicality!

I suspect most won't agree and think taking responsibility, being honest and admitting mistakes is an old obsolete concept. However if that's so, why are there so many lawyer's jokes "out there"? And for those saying "its just a speeding ticket/it was probably a cop 'setup' in a relatively safe area to collect revenue (I'll rant about that lack of honesty and accountability too)", apply the same thinking to a more serious legal situation where someone gets off, while the victim pays the price, to injure someone else. Because the law failed to protect society.   

[toolatecrew]

I have nothing to do with the law or anything related, my comments about this article are simply a reaction akin to that famous phrase from that old movie, Network, " I'm mad as hell and I'm not gonna take it anymore!" If the situation as described can exist and be boasted about in an article, then I have a right to voicing an opinion too.

Client gets off! Whoohoo! Well this is illogical and silly. Is this "law"? Is this right or even acceptable in any form of society? Or is this kiddies playing games in a sandbox, see who fools the other first. And for a fee. Even the way this article is written, its clearly gives the impression that, tee hee, I pulled a fast one! Of course there was nothing wrong with the laser gun! My client was speeding, he/she knew it, and so did I going into court! A technicality!

I suspect most won't agree and think taking responsibility, being honest and admitting mistakes is an old obsolete concept. However if that's so, why are there so many lawyer's jokes "out there"? And for those saying "its just a speeding ticket/it was probably a cop 'setup' in a relatively safe area to collect revenue (I'll rant about that lack of honesty and accountability too)", apply the same thinking to a more serious legal situation where someone gets off, while the victim pays the price, to injure someone else. Because the law failed to protect society.  

WHat about protecting society from the law?

What if the officer did in fact fake the report that he checked the Laserr gun as he did with the Radar gun?

Its checks and balances. Everyone has rules to follow. The driver should not exceed the speed limit. If its proven he did he's punsihshed. The police need to check and properly document the accuracy of the tools they use to prove people broke the law. If they don't they are "punished" by not being able to convict people.

Yes people get off on technicalities. If not for these technicalites other people would likley be convicted wrongly. No system is perfect but everyone knows the rules.

[coast]

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[Ron]

" If not for these technicalites other people would likley be convicted wrongly. "

Is it just me, or does that statement make no sense at all?  These technicalities only protect the guilty.  Proof or lack thereof will protect the innocent.

I agree in full with dougjp.  

This lawyer is just advertising his services on this site.  I guess a big pile of money helps him sleep at night, rather than doing something positive for society.

[toolatecrew]

" If not for these technicalites other people would likley be convicted wrongly. "

Is it just me, or does that statement make no sense at all?  These technicalities only protect the guilty.  Proof or lack thereof will protect the innocent.

I agree in full with dougjp.  

This lawyer is just advertising his services on this site.  I guess a big pile of money helps him sleep at night, rather than doing something positive for society.

No they don't.

Lets say that this ticket was written on Radar and not Laser. If the officer didn't really test the radar at midnight like he said (which is basically impossible) and the driver gets a ticket becuase the rader was WRONG (it had not been calibrated and showed too high a speed) who is that a technicality protecting the guilty?

Interesting that these unregistered guests are so concerned about morals but mention nothing about the police officer obviusly lying on the calibration report.

[ovr50]

IMO, the "objectors" to fighting a laser-based ticket are taking the whole thing too seriously. It has always been a game of cat & mouse between the speed enforcers and the speed violators. Each side uses whatever resources they have, including lawyers getting one "freed" on technicalities. The enforcers side has the advantage in all this, with today's technologies. I have no trouble for a driver getting a ticket for serious speed overages; but I do have a problem when the violation is minor, and the conditions under which it occurred were good (ie, little or no traffic, daylight, dry roads, etc). In school/playground/residential zones/streets, the violator should be ticketed for all overages; on the open highway, not so much.

I guess it is all part of today's overly PC society.

Just my opinion, other's may disagree.

[dougjp]

I can also appreciate toolatecrew's points. But lets think about the odds. It makes me wonder what percentage of the time an officer actually tests a Laser, compared to the percentage of time a form is filled in properly saying the Laser was tested, to avoid court technicalities, saying something is OK and nothing else. I'm sure the test is pretty simple though.

However my reaction was to the specifics of this article and the (to me) totally disgusting whoopie at dodging a ticket where the guilt was obvious. coast's post said it better than I did.

[old man]

Just reading this post makes me wonder what will happen if all our previleges all goes away or worst have the speed on our cars be limited to the posted speed limit (imagine a 300hp car with a max speed of 60...LOL!)? I bet all of you will be ranting like there is no tom. We leave in a democratic society and that has it's ups and downs. One of it is people doing stupid things and getting away with it and I bet every single people who will be reading this post has done something similar either it's taking a cookie from a jar and getting away with it that your mom said "not too" to getting away from a speeding ticket like this article. Life is full of surprises and the fact that we can argue and win at something stupid makes us humans. If all of you are angles that you think that lthe awyer doesn't deserve a space on this website that you should ask yourself when was the last time you followed the speed limit? I bet you are always eager to mash that iron pedal to the floor and get going as fast as you can but even though you go beyond the speed limit and eases back you still have broken the law and always say "good thing there is no cops around". The Fact that you just did crossed the line made you commit a offence that "YOU WANT TO GET AWAY WITH" unless you go to a police detachment and tell the blue uniformed guy to issue you a speeding ticket because you are honest. All of you should not be ranting on a lawyer that did his job and job he did well.

You should all be looking at the bigger picture on the article which is everything is arguable and explainable. Not to the fact that you can get away with everything.

BTW...I too got two speeding tickets and those two speeding tickets where thrown out by the judge because I was able to prove that I was not speeding. How you said? Technology! My car is rigged with a black box that is connected to a radar detector and gps which records everything time, speed, engine rpm, location, you name it. The fact that the reading was wrong makes me not wonder why people goes to extreme measures to have them acquitted.

[vdk]

I'd gladly pay parking tickets if it wouldn't involve getting raped by insurance companies.

[tpl]

Just reading this post makes me wonder what will happen if all our previleges all goes away or worst have the speed on our cars be limited to the posted speed limit (imagine a 300hp car with a max speed of 60...LOL!)? I bet all of you will be ranting like there is no tom. We leave in a democratic society and that has it's ups and downs. One of it is people doing stupid things and getting away with it and I bet every single people who will be reading this post has done something similar either it's taking a cookie from a jar and getting away with it that your mom said "not too" to getting away from a speeding ticket like this article. Life is full of surprises and the fact that we can argue and win at something stupid makes us humans. If all of you are angles that you think that lthe awyer doesn't deserve a space on this website that you should ask yourself when was the last time you followed the speed limit? I bet you are always eager to mash that iron pedal to the floor and get going as fast as you can but even though you go beyond the speed limit and eases back you still have broken the law and always say "good thing there is no cops around". The Fact that you just did crossed the line made you commit a offence that "YOU WANT TO GET AWAY WITH" unless you go to a police detachment and tell the blue uniformed guy to issue you a speeding ticket because you are honest. All of you should not be ranting on a lawyer that did his job and job he did well.

You should all be looking at the bigger picture on the article which is everything is arguable and explainable. Not to the fact that you can get away with everything.

BTW...I too got two speeding tickets and those two speeding tickets where thrown out by the judge because I was able to prove that I was not speeding. How you said? Technology! My car is rigged with a black box that is connected to a radar detector and gps which records everything time, speed, engine rpm, location, you name it. The fact that the reading was wrong makes me not wonder why people goes to extreme measures to have them acquitted.

Fortunately it is possible to elect a government that would change laws even speed limit laws.  Not likely that the drivers of Canada, who are probably a majority of voters, would do such a thing but not impossible.   Mike harris certainly got a fair few votes when he promised to get rid of photo radar.     Possibly the reason that has not come back is  because the current government of Ontario has some polls that show how many votes MH got...

[nick]

I don't see any evidence that those fighting the ticket were lying instead they were using the tools at their disposal to get out of a ticket. Good for them. The law uses technicalities to get you so why can't you technicalities to beat the ticket. I think that cops hiding behind trees etc to nail speeders is not the way to get speeders to slow down but instead is another way to raise money for government. I see cars on the road after a storm covered in snow and the police just drive by!! A police car going openly down the highway does more for speed control then all the hidden police finding some way to nail law breakers. Remember not all laws are good and not all police are just trying to do the public good. We need people to keep them on their toes to do the correct thing. Government is always interested in more fines , thankfully most police are interested in law enforcement but not in raising more taxes for the government.

[robsaw]

Yes, there are times that I hate it when the obviously guilty get off on technicalities, but to assert that technicalities only protect the guilty and the innocent will be protected by lack of evidence is the sure way on the road to the next totalitarian regime.  These sorts of legal protections are what is essential to ensuring that the gov't doesn't conduct random inspections of your home, person, car, workplace for any purpose and anything with or without probable cause at anytime they feel like and use such as opportunity to repress free thought, expression and speech of all sorts.  Don't think it can happen, history shows otherwise, all too frequently.

[The Mighty Duck]

What a useless article. It doesn't tell us anything about the law we didn't already know, and doesn't provide any useful tips for trying to fight a speeding ticket (if one is so inclined) other than "hope for a technicality".

A more useful topic would have been that of laser "jammers". These devices are still legal in many jurisdictions, and prevent the police from getting a laser fix on you.

[tpl]

I fail to see how one could "jam" a properly designed Lidar device... without emitting a dangerous amount of light. Surely  the pulse of light has hit your car, been reflected and is back, doppler shifted, to the Lidar device before any active device can do anything.  Now if the Lidar device relies on the time between pulse and return rather than the pure physics of Herr Doppler AND the Lidar feels it needs several pulses to get a reading  then a powerful laser emitter on the target vehicle might be able to spoof it... and blind the Lidar operator and any onlookers.

I can sort of see how one could cause a vehicle not to reflect and incoming laser light back to the source... but I suspect if you had a vehicle like that you'd get pulled over anyway.  How do you stop the headlight reflectors sending the laser light straight back?


Edit. Just read a web article    http://www.guysoflidar.com/march-2007/laser-jammer-test.html       Seems that all the Lidar guns use the time between pulses and the jammers do emit laser light to confuse them.    Hmmmmm time for a bit more tech in the Lidar guns I think. 

[Toast]

Hi
After reading all the previous posts, I have to wonder, do we still live in a country where you are innocent till proven guilty?

[rrocket]

I fail to see how one could "jam" a properly designed Lidar device... without emitting a dangerous amount of light. Surely  the pulse of light has hit your car, been reflected and is back, doppler shifted, to the Lidar device before any active device can do anything.  Now if the Lidar device relies on the time between pulse and return rather than the pure physics of Herr Doppler AND the Lidar feels it needs several pulses to get a reading  then a powerful laser emitter on the target vehicle might be able to spoof it... and blind the Lidar operator and any onlookers.

I can sort of see how one could cause a vehicle not to reflect and incoming laser light back to the source... but I suspect if you had a vehicle like that you'd get pulled over anyway.  How do you stop the headlight reflectors sending the laser light straight back?


Edit. Just read a web article    http://www.guysoflidar.com/march-2007/laser-jammer-test.html       Seems that all the Lidar guns use the time between pulses and the jammers do emit laser light to confuse them.    Hmmmmm time for a bit more tech in the Lidar guns I think. 

Yup..and they work rather well.  While illegal, most of these jammers are sold as "parking assist" devices which are legal.  They all operate on the same "frequency".  The idea is you get the warning lights go off in the car (while your jammer is doing it's job) then you slow right down and turn the system off.  Then the police gets a reading and suspect nothing.  This all takes place in less than 5 seconds.  Good stuff!! 

THough in Ontario, you're still likely to get nailed by the Cessnas...