Topic: Audi RS5 (specs now available)

[quadzilla]

The GTI I drove had a DSG, but it had a fully automatic mode. Has that changed since the 2006 model? Or maybe if it's in manual shift mode it will bounce off the limiter...?

There are still 3 modes: Auto, Sport and Manual

But please tell me you guys are not trying to compare a DSG in Auto mode to a 3 pedal manual

[Mitlov]

If you could have a transmission that worked like your bike in your car wouldn't you prefer that?  To me that is what a PDK/DSG, whatever,  transmission is. 

I don't understand what you mean.  On my bike, I modulate the clutch when I upshift.  I modulate the clutch when I downshift, and I blip the throttle too.  I don't do any of that myself with a DSG.  I just send an electronic signal to a computer telling it what gear I want to be in and it handles everything.  

There is still that direct connection, I hate torque converters too.  (Again, a disclaimer, I haven't tried one, I should go test drive something.)

In my opinion, the DSG in the GTI felt more akin to a good automatic with a good manumatic function (say, the current-gen 3-Series or the current-gen CTS that I drove) than a manual.  Mechanically it's very different, but the system of driver input is the same and the overall effect, in my opinion, is very similar.

Would you still like a manual without synchros, that would be more purist?  Do you match revs and double clutch downshifts for the hell of it?

I think there is a place for these things, in vintage cars.    

I've never driven a manual without synchros.  But isn't it the exact same driver input (clutch and shifter), just less smoothness on the shifter and the ability to skip gears while shifting?  Adding synchros doesn't take any driver involvement away from the driver.   A dual-clutch does, because the driver no longer has control of clutch modulation or the additional "feel" of the engine that modulating the clutch yourself gives.

Anyhow you can't do any more than 2 gear changes  before the cops impound your car and license.

Only if you're drag-racing on the street.  If you're driving on a twisty road alternating between third and fourth gear (or second and third, or whatever), you can manually shift all day long without getting into trouble.

At the end of the day, I don't understand why anybody would support a lack of choice in transmissions of a performance car.  Some performance drivers prefer the dual-clutch experience; some prefer the old-school manual experience.  Why on earth is it not a bad thing that Audi has denied purchasers of the RS5 the choice that, say, BMW offers purchasers of the M3?

[DriverJeff]

Not sure why anyone is surprised that Audi is only releasing the car with the DSG.  Even the so-called performance model S4 has more electro nannies than most purists would like.  While you can (for now) get the S4 with a proper 3-pedal set up, it doesn't even have a hand-brake!  There's a little button for "parking brake" (sigh)... 

[tpl]

@Mitlov. A transmission like the DSG will permit us to have high performance cars that we'd not get because of emissions and economy standards that are coming.   30 years ago we nearly lost manual transmissions because of emissions and were saved by fuel injection that let the manufacturers get ahead of the game. My GTI is rated with better economy with the DSG than with a manual.  Not much but some. I don't know what that means in gm/km of Co2 but the Eu is threatening 1 Euro/gm and up over the limit which wouldn't affect something like the GTI but sure would affect a car that was further over... like an RS5.   
The DSG really is a proper transmission with an automatic clutch. NOT like any sort of torque converter transmission.  In automatic mode it feels like a very smooth 6 spd automatic...which is what it is supposed to do.

A conventional manual without synchros or with weak synchros is just another manual transmission but you have to be precise with rev matching when you change gear or it will be very noisy.   You can skip gears if you wish but have to be even more careful.
IMHO synchromesh ( Porsche pattern) beats out sliced bread by a long way in terms of 20th century wonders.

@Quad @Demo   I have never bounced the GTI engine. off the rev limiter.  The power peak is a few hundred rpm below the rev limit  so why abuse the machinery.

[vdk]

Not sure why anyone is surprised that Audi is only releasing the car with the DSG.  Even the so-called performance model S4 has more electro nannies than most purists would like.  While you can (for now) get the S4 with a proper 3-pedal set up, it doesn't even have a hand-brake!  There's a little button for "parking brake" (sigh)... 

Maybe because the RS4 was only available with a manual transmission, defeatable nannies, big V8, 6 speed manual transmission, AWD with a 40:60 split, and a sweet sounding exhaust.

This RS5 was supposed to take it up a notch. It didn't.

[The Mighty Duck]

The DSG really is a proper transmission with an automatic clutch. NOT like any sort of torque converter transmission.  In automatic mode it feels like a very smooth 6 spd automatic...which is what it is supposed to do.

No one is belabouring that point. Only the part where it "feels like a very smooth 6 spd automatic". I don't want anything automatic about my transmission - not in a sports car.

[tpl]

The only thing for you to do is to drive one in manual mode only for a weekend or so.  Even then I quite see why you don't want one... a few years back neither would I.

[Mitlov]

@Mitlov. A transmission like the DSG will permit us to have high performance cars that we'd not get because of emissions and economy standards that are coming.   30 years ago we nearly lost manual transmissions because of emissions and were saved by fuel injection that let the manufacturers get ahead of the game.  My GTI is rated with better economy with the DSG than with a manual.  Not much but some. I don't know what that means in gm/km of Co2 but the Eu is threatening 1 Euro/gm and up over the limit which wouldn't affect something like the GTI but sure would affect a car that was further over... like an RS5.   

The difference between an RS5 DSG and an RS5 6MT would not be nearly as big as the difference between an S5 and an RS5...and yet they still offer the RS5.  I don't buy that the RS5 6MT was canned for environmental reasons.  Not for one minute.

Out of all the explanations I've heard for the death of manual transmissions in high-performance cars, even as an option, the warranty claims argument seems the most likely to me.

The DSG really is a proper transmission with an automatic clutch. NOT like any sort of torque converter transmission.  In automatic mode it feels like a very smooth 6 spd automatic...which is what it is supposed to do.

I never said a DSG isn't a "proper" transmission, and I understand it's miles better than a torque converter transmission in many ways, but it's certainly not a manual transmission.  You know the one thing that an SMG, DSG, CVT, and torque converter transmission have in common?  They all can shift gears automatically.  You can put them in "drive" and leave it at that.  To contrast, with a three-pedal conventional manual, you select gears and operate the clutch manually, with your hands and feet operating actual mechanical connections to the clutch and gear change mechanism.  Hence, "automatic" transmission and "manual" transmission.  For years, people have used "automatic" to refer specifically to torque converter transmissions, but I don't think that association makes a lick of sense.  CVT, SMG, and yes, DSG, all shift gears automatically.  You may tell a computer what gear you it to put you into, but you're not shifting manually like you do with a three-pedal-and-stick transmission.

[rrocket]

Wonder if the RS5 will be terribly overpriced here like the RS4 was?

[Mitlov]

Wonder if the RS5 will be terribly overpriced here like the RS4 was?

Absolutely no way to know until they release pricing for each specific country.

[vdk]

They priced the RS4 so high because in 2007 it had very little competition. The M5 would count as a competitor, but not much else.

[blur911]

The GTI I drove had a DSG, but it had a fully automatic mode. Has that changed since the 2006 model? Or maybe if it's in manual shift mode it will bounce off the limiter...?

There are still 3 modes: Auto, Sport and Manual

But please tell me you guys are not trying to compare a DSG in Auto mode to a 3 pedal manual

Exactly, if you want to shift it yourself then leave it in manual, having more choice surely isn't a detriment?

I've replaced 2 clutche$ and refurbed and replaced the $ynchros twice in my 911 tranny and now I keep a spare transmission just in case. Twice had to limp it home with busted clutch actuation bits.  Ahhh, the nostalgia.
Have you ever heard the noise an engine makes when you make that perfect upshift from 3rd to 4th, only you hit 2nd by mistake?  (wasn't me) 

How about that unique smell when you thought all that smoke was from your tires spinning, only it was your clutch?

Sorry, I'm sleep deprived and rambling somewhat

[rrocket]

The GTI I drove had a DSG, but it had a fully automatic mode. Has that changed since the 2006 model? Or maybe if it's in manual shift mode it will bounce off the limiter...?

There are still 3 modes: Auto, Sport and Manual

But please tell me you guys are not trying to compare a DSG in Auto mode to a 3 pedal manual

Exactly, if you want to shift it yourself then leave it in manual, having more choice surely isn't a detriment?

I've replaced 2 clutche$ and refurbed and replaced the $ynchros twice in my 911 tranny and now I keep a spare transmission just in case. Twice had to limp it home with busted clutch actuation bits.  Ahhh, the nostalgia.
Have you ever heard the noise an engine makes when you make that perfect upshift from 3rd to 4th, only you hit 2nd by mistake?  (wasn't me) 

How about that unique smell when you thought all that smoke was from your tires spinning, only it was your clutch?

Sorry, I'm sleep deprived and rambling somewhat

Or me playing around with a clutch, like it was some toy, flipping it around and looking at it.  "Hey, this is a nice clutch, what's it worth?"  "Seven grand...please don't drop it!!"   

[Mitlov]

The GTI I drove had a DSG, but it had a fully automatic mode. Has that changed since the 2006 model? Or maybe if it's in manual shift mode it will bounce off the limiter...?

There are still 3 modes: Auto, Sport and Manual

But please tell me you guys are not trying to compare a DSG in Auto mode to a 3 pedal manual

Exactly, if you want to shift it yourself then leave it in manual, having more choice surely isn't a detriment?

I've replaced 2 clutche$ and refurbed and replaced the $ynchros twice in my 911 tranny and now I keep a spare transmission just in case. Twice had to limp it home with busted clutch actuation bits.  Ahhh, the nostalgia.
Have you ever heard the noise an engine makes when you make that perfect upshift from 3rd to 4th, only you hit 2nd by mistake?  (wasn't me) 

How about that unique smell when you thought all that smoke was from your tires spinning, only it was your clutch?

Sorry, I'm sleep deprived and rambling somewhat

Or me playing around with a clutch, like it was some toy, flipping it around and looking at it.  "Hey, this is a nice clutch, what's it worth?"  "Seven grand...please don't drop it!!"   

How much does the oh-so-fragile dual-clutch transmission in the GT-R cost to replace?  Attacking traditional manuals in favor of DSG from a durability-and-cost-of-maintenance perspective is a bit crazy...

[Triple Bob]

I love manual trannies, and totally appreciate what you are saying. But I think their time has passed into the land of  "remember when cars had manual steering and brakes" or "remember off-throttle oversteer".

I think that is the strangest thing I have ever seen written on a driving enthusiast's forum, very strange indeed.

[The Mighty Duck]

Exactly, if you want to shift it yourself then leave it in manual, having more choice surely isn't a detriment?

Pressing a flappy paddel on your steering column is not the same thing as manually operating a clutch and gearshift to make that perfect downshift. See my comments on driving experience, above.

DSGs and the like have their place, and they're leaps and bounds better than traditional automatic transmissions, no question. But they're not the same as a proper manual transmission, and for an enthusiast who prefers a real manual, not a viable alternative.

If it says it's a sports car, and it doesn't have three pedals, count me out*.

* To be fair, if the car were otherwise perfect, I might buy one with a DSG. But given the choice, I'd take the proper manual. And lacking that option would be a big point in the "cons" column.

[tpl]

"Have you ever heard the noise an engine makes when you make that perfect upshift from 3rd to 4th, only you hit 2nd by mistake?  (wasn't me)"

Or from 2nd to 3rd and hit 1st.  BMW drivers call that the "money shift"   

[blur911]

I love manual trannies, and totally appreciate what you are saying. But I think their time has passed into the land of  "remember when cars had manual steering and brakes" or "remember off-throttle oversteer".

I think that is the strangest thing I have ever seen written on a driving enthusiast's forum, very strange indeed.

Why is it strange to say? Old technology dies and is replaced.  How many sport cars today don't have ABS, traction control, stability control, drive by wire throttle, etc., why is this change so hard to digest? You yourself are looking at buying a new Genesis Coupe, not a Morgan +4. Are you going do disable the ABS, TCS and stability control so you can be a true driving enthusiast?

I'm not saying I personally want it for my own toy car.  Hell, I'm driving a 30 year old 911, no electronic nannies to be found, not even power steering, if I mess up I go skidding off the track.  I relish beating new cars with all the power and drivers aids found in them now (but it's getting harder to do). 

I do think DSG/PDK sounds like something I'd want on a street car where you get all the advantages and feel of a manual tranny, but if you're stuck in traffic or just cruising down the highway you can leave it in auto mode, take it to the track and you're shifting like you're in a new race car, not a vintage  '53 Morgan.

Audi is all about advantage through technology, why would they want to go retro when DSG is faster and better by any measurable factor? 
That said, I'd still prefer a Sport Quattro over a new RS5, but how many other people would?

[blur911]

Exactly, if you want to shift it yourself then leave it in manual, having more choice surely isn't a detriment?

Pressing a flappy paddel on your steering column is not the same thing as manually operating a clutch and gearshift to make that perfect downshift. See my comments on driving experience, above.

DSGs and the like have their place, and they're leaps and bounds better than traditional automatic transmissions, no question. But they're not the same as a proper manual transmission, and for an enthusiast who prefers a real manual, not a viable alternative.

If it says it's a sports car, and it doesn't have three pedals, count me out*.

Sports cars today are sold by their lap times at the Nürburgring and quarter-mile times.  When the GTR beat the 911 turbo at the 'ring I didn't see Porsche coming out with a press  release saying Nissan cheated because they didn't have a proper clutch.

BTW Demo, how's your heel'n'toe, throttle blipping downshift while braking and turning in? (you have a Honda so double clutching and rev matching isn't even required)   We have a track day coming up at the end of May? 

[quadzilla]

That said, I'd still prefer a Sport Quattro over a new RS5, but how many other people would?

   Pick me!