Topic: Audi RS5 (specs now available)

[Mitlov]

Audi is planning on using the same 8-speed automatic across it's entire line.  Perhaps they have the same idea with the DSG?
I haven't tried out a DSG yet, but I think I'll like it.  Why do people still want to row through the gears?

...seriously?  Because it's fun.  Because it gives a greater feeling of connectedness with the engine and all the mechanical parts.  Because it gives greater control and involvement.  Because it gives a greater sense of accomplishment when you do go fast.

[tpl]

Audi is planning on using the same 8-speed automatic across it's entire line.  Perhaps they have the same idea with the DSG?
I haven't tried out a DSG yet, but I think I'll like it.  Why do people still want to row through the gears?

...seriously?  Because it's fun.  Because it gives a greater feeling of connectedness with the engine and all the mechanical parts.  Because it gives greater control and involvement.  Because it gives a greater sense of accomplishment when you do go fast.

I see your point and quite understand it. As someone who has been rowing through the gears for longer than you've been alive Mitlov, nowadays I find that I get great enjoyment from listening to/feeling the computer doing it for me with my DSG.  I would love to have the opportunity to try the DCT in a BMW and the PDK in a Porsche as well... and I suppose one of these new Ferraris if I was forced to.    I can also understand why, from a economy/emissions POV why the manufacturers are moving to DSG type transmissions.

 Note btw that I will never buy a torque converter transmission... horrid things.

[Mitlov]

Audi is planning on using the same 8-speed automatic across it's entire line.  Perhaps they have the same idea with the DSG?
I haven't tried out a DSG yet, but I think I'll like it.  Why do people still want to row through the gears?

...seriously?  Because it's fun.  Because it gives a greater feeling of connectedness with the engine and all the mechanical parts.  Because it gives greater control and involvement.  Because it gives a greater sense of accomplishment when you do go fast.

I see your point and quite understand it. As someone who has been rowing through the gears for longer than you've been alive Mitlov, nowadays I find that I get great enjoyment from listening to/feeling the computer doing it for me with my DSG.  I would love to have the opportunity to try the DCT in a BMW and the PDK in a Porsche as well... and I suppose one of these new Ferraris if I was forced to.    I can also understand why, from a economy/emissions POV why the manufacturers are moving to DSG type transmissions.

 Note btw that I will never buy a torque converter transmission... horrid things.

I completely get why some people prefer dual-clutch transmissions.  Convenience, fast precise shifts, etc.  But some people aren't everybody, and it annoys me when people suggest that there is no good reason for anyone to prefer a conventional manual.  That's all I was responding to.

[The Mighty Duck]

Why do people still want to row through the gears?

You own a Porsche and you're still asking this question? Because it's a better driver involvement. Whether an automatic is using a torque converter or a very good dual-clutch system, it's still taking the control away from the driver...

[blur911]

Audi is planning on using the same 8-speed automatic across it's entire line.  Perhaps they have the same idea with the DSG?
I haven't tried out a DSG yet, but I think I'll like it.  Why do people still want to row through the gears?

...seriously?  Because it's fun.  Because it gives a greater feeling of connectedness with the engine and all the mechanical parts.  Because it gives greater control and involvement.  Because it gives a greater sense of accomplishment when you do go fast.

I see your point and quite understand it. As someone who has been rowing through the gears for longer than you've been alive Mitlov, nowadays I find that I get great enjoyment from listening to/feeling the computer doing it for me with my DSG.  I would love to have the opportunity to try the DCT in a BMW and the PDK in a Porsche as well... and I suppose one of these new Ferraris if I was forced to.    I can also understand why, from a economy/emissions POV why the manufacturers are moving to DSG type transmissions.

 Note btw that I will never buy a torque converter transmission... horrid things.

I completely get why some people prefer dual-clutch transmissions.  Convenience, fast precise shifts, etc.  But some people aren't everybody, and it annoys me when people suggest that there is no good reason for anyone to prefer a conventional manual.  That's all I was responding to.

If you could have a transmission that worked like your bike in your car wouldn't you prefer that?  To me that is what a PDK/DSG, whatever,  transmission is.   There is still that direct connection, I hate torque converters too.  (Again, a disclaimer, I haven't tried one, I should go test drive something.)
Would you still like a manual without synchros, that would be more purist?  Do you match revs and double clutch downshifts for the hell of it?
I think there is a place for these things, in vintage cars.     Anyhow you can't do any more than 2 gear changes  before the cops impound your car and license.

BTW, I'm not sure why I'm debating it.  I love manual trannies, and totally appreciate what you are saying. But I think their time has passed into the land of  "remember when cars had manual steering and brakes" or "remember off-throttle oversteer".

[The Mighty Duck]

But I think their time has passed into the land of  "remember when cars had manual steering and brakes" or "remember off-throttle oversteer".

I hope to God you're wrong... that would be a tragic day for anyone that enjoys driving.

A DSG/PDK is not the same as a manual transmission. IMO it has more in common with a very good automatic than it does a manual (from a driver experience standpoint, if not a technology standpoint).

There's something infinitely satisfying about executing a perfect downshift and slotting the shifter into place that you simply do not get with a DSG and it's flappy paddles.

[tpl]

@Demo Yes indeed. A perfect manual shift is the wonderful thing!   Even more so when the gearbox has weak/non-existent synchros ( All BMC/British Leyland/MG cars in my experience)  or no synchros at all ( Pre wwII British cars and a few 3 speed Ford gearboxes up until the early '60s).  Done 'em all.   

[Erik]

But I think their time has passed into the land of  "remember when cars had manual steering and brakes" or "remember off-throttle oversteer".

I hope to God you're wrong... that would be a tragic day for anyone that enjoys driving.

A DSG/PDK is not the same as a manual transmission. IMO it has more in common with a very good automatic than it does a manual (from a driver experience standpoint, if not a technology standpoint).

There's something infinitely satisfying about executing a perfect downshift and slotting the shifter into place that you simply do not get with a DSG and it's flappy paddles.

So true.
But we are entering an era where expertise in anything is falling by the wayside.
Why bother learning to play guitar, when Guitar Hero is available? Think of all the time you save not having to take all those annoying lessons.

The huge difference between a DSG/PDK and a manual is who has the control. Do you want you controlling your car, or your computer.

With the way technology is going, is it really that hard to imagine automatic accelerators, brakes and steering soon? All so much more efficient!

[quadzilla]

I'm glad all of you people don't want this car with DSG as that means I won't have to wait as long for mine.

I also can't wait for somebody to fill my bank account so I can buy this car. Until I can get a RS4-Avant this will be my new choice.

As to the DSG arguments....How does one have less control when driving a DSG equiped car? That makes no sense to me at all.

[vdk]

I'm glad all of you people don't want this car with DSG as that means I won't have to wait as long for mine.

I also can't wait for somebody to fill my bank account so I can buy this car. Until I can get a RS4-Avant this will be my new choice.

As to the DSG arguments....How does one have less control when driving a DSG equiped car? That makes no sense to me at all.

Cause it won't downshift when you want it to and it will upshift on it's own. N'est-ce pas?

[quadzilla]

Cause it won't downshift when you want it to and it will upshift on it's own. N'est-ce pas?

I guess not because mine does up/downshift when I want it to. How come the new on doesn't?

[The Mighty Duck]

As to the DSG arguments....How does one have less control when driving a DSG equiped car? That makes no sense to me at all.

With a manual, the driver makes a choice and does it. With a DSG, the driver makes a choice, then the computer evaluates that choice and decides whether to do it or not. If the computer decides a downshift right now is a bad idea, it will stop the shift. Likewise, if it decides the car needs an upshift, it will upshift. Sounds like less control to me...

[vdk]

Cause it won't downshift when you want it to and it will upshift on it's own. N'est-ce pas?

I guess not because mine does up/downshift when I want it to. How come the new on doesn't?

Put it in first and floor it. It will change in second, and third on its own. Correct?

And it won't downshift if it means the engine would have to hit the rev limiter.

[quadzilla]

Put it in first and floor it. It will change in second, and third on its own. Correct?

Nope....bounces off the rev limiter. Trust me, I've hit it many times.

With a manual, the driver makes a choice and does it. With a DSG, the driver makes a choice, then the computer evaluates that choice and decides whether to do it or not. If the computer decides a downshift right now is a bad idea, it will stop the shift. Likewise, if it decides the car needs an upshift, it will upshift. Sounds like less control to me...

The only time the car won't shift is if it is out of the 'allowable' range, ie: downshift = higher than redline or upshift = lower than idle

Of course, with a true manual you can make the car do those things if you want and damage your car/engine.

[tpl]

According to the VW owners manual the DSG will shift on demand provided that shift does not either exceed the red-line or bring the engine to a stall.

In manual mode they are the only conditions it will shift automatically.

So Demo, you are correct but those conditions for an automatic shift are extreme EXCEPT an accidental flick of the downshift paddle one time to many.

[The Mighty Duck]

The only time the car won't shift is if it is out of the 'allowable' range, ie: downshift = higher than redline or upshift = lower than idle

Of course, with a true manual you can make the car do those things if you want and damage your car/engine.

The point isn't what it will do to your engine, it's that you can if you're so inclined.

Which isn't to say that anyone wants to grenade their engine, but rather that with a manual you know it will change gear when you want it to. With a DSG... it might change. Or the computer might decide it doesn't want to. That control is removed from the driver.

[vdk]

Put it in first and floor it. It will change in second, and third on its own. Correct?

Nope....bounces off the rev limiter. Trust me, I've hit it many times.

Do you hold the + paddle? Otherwise it will shift. At least that was the case in pre 2009 GTIs.

TPL can you comment on this?

[quadzilla]

Put it in first and floor it. It will change in second, and third on its own. Correct?

Nope....bounces off the rev limiter. Trust me, I've hit it many times.

Do you hold the + paddle? Otherwise it will shift. At least that was the case in pre 2009 GTIs.

TPL can you comment on this?

Not holding the paddle. Maybe I'm wrong but I know I've bounced of the rev limiter in first quite a few times. I'll double check next time I drive the car and try to bounce off second also.

[quadzilla]

The only time the car won't shift is if it is out of the 'allowable' range, ie: downshift = higher than redline or upshift = lower than idle

Of course, with a true manual you can make the car do those things if you want and damage your car/engine.

The point isn't what it will do to your engine, it's that you can if you're so inclined.

Which isn't to say that anyone wants to grenade their engine, but rather that with a manual you know it will change gear when you want it to. With a DSG... it might change. Or the computer might decide it doesn't want to. That control is removed from the driver.

Ok then. If that is your point I get it but personally, I think its a non-issue. Shifting to over/under rev with a true manual will make that driver not in control....my opinion only.

[The Mighty Duck]

The GTI I drove had a DSG, but it had a fully automatic mode. Has that changed since the 2006 model? Or maybe if it's in manual shift mode it will bounce off the limiter...?