Topic: 2010 Honda VFR1200F Breaks Cover!

[rrocket]

DUAL CLUTCH TRANSMISSION AVAILABLE!  Interesting.....







"This is one of the most exciting motorcycles in Honda's history," said Powersports Press Manager Bill Savino. "The VFR1200F establishes a whole new definition of performance motorcycling, one that taps into Honda's rich V-4 VFR heritage and extends it into the future of Honda motorcycling. The new technology within this motorcycle is flat-out amazing and it all works together in a manner that takes the VFR1200F strides forward in how a high-end machine looks, works and feels. This is a sport motorcycle that will leave you smiling and ready for more even after you've been riding for hours on end."

More detailed information and images of Honda's model line can be found on www.powersports.honda.com or see your local Honda powersports dealer.

The 2010 VFR1200F embodies the next generation of new motorcycle technology, resulting in unsurpassed rider benefits for those in search of a sporting motorcycle that truly transcends common bounds. Honda's V-4 heritage has been re-invented in astonishingly innovative form through the fusion of advanced technology to craft a futuristic sport motorcycle created for the sheer joy of riding, custom tailored for experienced hands who ride hard, ride long, ride far and ride often.

Just a few of the incredible features and benefits found in the VFR1200F include Honda MotoGP engine technology and architecture; a light and compact 1237cc liquid-cooled 76-degree V-4 that pumps out amazing levels of power; Throttle By Wire for next-generation throttle response; lightweight and compact Unicam(r) valvetrain allows for significantly smaller cylinder heads; optional Dual Clutch Automatic Transmission with manual mode and automatic mode with two D/S modes and paddle-style shifters; Honda slipper clutch in the manual-shift VFR1200F; GP technology layer-concept aero fairing for unrivaled air management and futuristic style; next-generation shaft drive system with offset pivot point and sliding constant-velocity joint for a new level of shaft-drive performance and control.

The VFR1200F will be available at Honda dealers in Spring of 2010. For more information on the VFR1200F, go to www.powersports.honda.com.

[Mitlov]

Initial thoughts:

(1)  How did they take so many details that look futuristic in close-up shots and cobble them together into a bike that looks bland and anonymous from 100 yards away?  Styling gets a big fail from me.

(2)  Not sold on the dual-clutch setup.  Motorcycles, especially sport-tourers, are all about the subjective joys of motoring, not the objective tenths-of-a-second that a dual clutch gives you over a manual.  And the traffic-and-practicality arguments in favor of automatics don't really apply to motorcycles, because you're insane to ride them in gridlock to begin with.  Glad they offer a traditional manual as well, unlike that DN-01 or whatever it's called.

(3)  I bet it'll be horribly expensive.  Honda motorcycles seem to charge a premium over the other Japanese Big Four, particularly Suzuki and Kawasaki.  As one example, Honda charges US$9,999 for the NT700V.  Suzuki charges US$7,499 for the SV650SF.  Is the Honda really 33% more of a bike?  Not in a million years in my opinion.  The shaft drive and hard bags hardly justify the massive price jump.  I wonder how much more expensive this will be than, say, an FJR?

[rrocket]

Initial thoughts:

(1)  How did they take so many details that look futuristic in close-up shots and cobble them together into a bike that looks bland and anonymous from 100 yards away?  Styling gets a big fail from me.

(2)  Not sold on the dual-clutch setup.  Motorcycles, especially sport-tourers, are all about the subjective joys of motoring, not the objective tenths-of-a-second that a dual clutch gives you over a manual.  And the traffic-and-practicality arguments in favor of automatics don't really apply to motorcycles, because you're insane to ride them in gridlock to begin with.  Glad they offer a traditional manual as well, unlike that DN-01 or whatever it's called.

(3)  I bet it'll be horribly expensive.  Honda motorcycles seem to charge a premium over the other Japanese Big Four, particularly Suzuki and Kawasaki.  As one example, Honda charges US$9,999 for the NT700V.  Suzuki charges US$7,499 for the SV650SF.  Is the Honda really 33% more of a bike?  Not in a million years in my opinion.  The shaft drive and hard bags hardly justify the massive price jump.  I wonder how much more expensive this will be than, say, an FJR?

Well of course you don't justify it, Mr. SV650 owner....

Build quality/Fit and Finish of Honda is second to none in the bike world.  Worth the premium IMO.  FWIW, a Honda CBR1000 costs $100 more than a GSXR1000....(in Canada the CRB1000 non-ABS is $600 LESS than a GSXR1000)

Oh...and go price out a set of Givi Luggage for the SV that don't looks as nice as the factory Hondas, then decide is the premium is worth it.

Build quality + More CCs + Hard Luggage = Worth premium.  (though I for one don't like shaft drive)

[Mitlov]

Well of course you don't justify it, Mr. SV650 owner....

What, since I own a Suzook I can't be trusted to be objective?  I guess we should quit listening to your opinions about Toyotas then.  Sound good to you?

For what it's worth, two out of the three bikes I've owned have been Hondas.  Still think I'm a pro-Suzuki anti-Honda fanboy?

Build quality of Honda is second to none in the bike world.  Worth the premium IMO.

Not in mine.  Based upon my two Hondas, my Suzook, and my dad's Kawasaki (which I've ridden quite a lot), Honda does NOT have a reliability advantage (not worse, but not better).  In terms of tactile fit-and-finish and drivetrain refinement, Honda offers an advantage, but a very small one.  The sort of thing where I'd expect a 5% or maybe 10% price premium for similar vehicles, but definitely not 33%.

FWIW, a Honda CBR1000 costs $100 more than a GSXR1000....

There's not a premium in the supersport and superbike markets (and I suspect the dirtbike markets).  But in terms of sport-tourers and sport-standards the like, Honda does seem to be more expensive than the other Japanese brands quite often (not always, but often).  You yourself said "worth the premium," right?  You can't simultaneously say "Hondas are worth the premium" and "Honda doesn't charge a premium."

[rrocket]

^^Hey...I LOVE the SV650.  One of the funnest bikes I've ridden on the track. (Sounded luscious with Renegade high pipes)  I'm definitely not a hater.  But the fact is.. Honda (especially one compared to an aging design like the SV650) are a few rungs up in the quality dept.  Though to be fair...the new Honda is a re-design of a Euro model IIRC.

Oh..what Honda's did you own BTW?

[Mitlov]

^^Hey...I LOVE the SV650.  One of the funnest bikes I've ridden on the track. (Sounded luscious with Renegade high pipes)  I'm definitely not a hater.  But the fact is.. Honda (especially one compared to an aging design like the SV650) are a few rungs up in the quality dept.  Though to be fair...the new Honda is a re-design of a Euro model IIRC.

Oh..what Honda's did you own BTW?

Yeah, the Deauville has been around in Europe for many years.  Ever since the days of the Honda Hawk GT, if I recall correctly.  Though it's received updates, of course.

Before owning the SV650, I owned a Honda Rebel 250 and Honda Shadow VLX 600.  And the Kawasaki my dad owns that I've spent a bunch of time on is the W650. 

Setting aside the Rebel as built down to a price (besides, it was bought used whereas the other three were new), I found reliability and fit-and-finish and refinement to be pretty equivalent on all three bikes.  The ONLY advantage the Honda had were smoother-operating handlebar switches.  Honestly, as to fit and finish on the rest of the vehicle besides the handlebar switches, I'd say the Kawasaki was the best and the Suzuki and the Honda are equal, both a half-step behind the W650.  The Honda wasn't bad by any means, but it didn't feel "rich" at all, even compared to the "budget" SV650.  And the VLX had some very poorly-designed details--especially the hard-to-use and cheap-feeling pop-in-pop-out plastic latches that kept the side covers on.

EDIT:  Also, when I was a teenager, I used to loiter a lot at the local Honda/Kawasaki/Suzuki dealership, sitting on bikes and checking out the new models and all that.  I didn't notice a consistent, significant difference in fit-and-finish between the three brands.

[rrocket]

^^Hey...I LOVE the SV650.  One of the funnest bikes I've ridden on the track. (Sounded luscious with Renegade high pipes)  I'm definitely not a hater.  But the fact is.. Honda (especially one compared to an aging design like the SV650) are a few rungs up in the quality dept.  Though to be fair...the new Honda is a re-design of a Euro model IIRC.

Oh..what Honda's did you own BTW?

Yeah, the Deauville has been around in Europe for many years.  Ever since the days of the Honda Hawk GT, if I recall correctly.

Before owning the SV650, I owned a Honda Rebel 250 and Honda Shadow VLX 600.  And the Kawasaki my dad owns that I've spent a bunch of time on is the W650. 

Setting aside the Rebel as built down to a price (besides, it was bought used whereas the other three were new), I found reliability and fit-and-finish and refinement to be pretty equivalent on all three bikes.  The ONLY advantage the Honda had were smoother-operating handlebar switches.  Honestly, as to fit and finish on the rest of the vehicle besides the handlebar switches, I'd say the Kawasaki was the best and the Suzuki and the Honda are equal, both a half-step behind the W650.  The Honda wasn't bad by any means, but it didn't feel "rich" at all, even compared to the "budget" SV650.  And the VLX had some very poorly-designed details--especially the hard-to-use and cheap-feeling pop-in-pop-out plastic latches that kept the side covers on.

Oh...the WS650 is pretty neat!!  I liked that one!!  Though I'd say a entry level cruiser bike vs. the Kawi and the WS aren't very good comparos.  I won't argue that a VLX is a fit and finish leader by any means.

But back to SV vs. NT.  Even if you spent $500 for the cheap, non painted Givis......where does the passenger sit?  No place.  The bags block the pillion pegs.  The Honda offers real two up capability (I've even read "comfortable"), with factory hard luggage.  I guess we can argue all day...but I don't think a true 2 up capable bike, vs. an SV650 that you'd have to cobble a set of luggage for and not be able to take a passenger with is out of line to ask a premium for.  And yes..I'll concede these bikes have different roles and the Honda is BIG compared to the SV.

Do you intend on keeping the SV forever, or is there a bike that has a chance to replace it?

[Mitlov]

Oh...the WS650 is pretty neat!!  I liked that one!!  Though I'd say a entry level cruiser bike vs. the Kawi and the WS aren't very good comparos.  I won't argue that a VLX is a fit and finish leader by any means.

But back to SV vs. NT.  Even if you spent $500 for the cheap, non painted Givis......where does the passenger sit?  No place.  The bags block the pillion pegs.  The Honda offers real two up capability (I've even read "comfortable"), with factory hard luggage.  I guess we can argue all day...but I don't think a true 2 up capable bike, vs. an SV650 that you'd have to cobble a set of luggage for and not be able to take a passenger with is out of line to ask a premium for.  And yes..I'll concede these bikes have different roles and the Honda is BIG compared to the SV.

Do you intend on keeping the SV forever, or is there a bike that has a chance to replace it?

Hard to do a back-to-back comparison when there's not comparable models from each manufacturer The Hawk GT was discontinued long before the SV came along, and nobody (but Triumph) has offered anything remotely like the W650.  Anyway, let's agree to disagree on whether the fit-and-finish gap between Honda and the other Japanese brands is big, small, or nonexistent.

The SV is not a forever bike...I'm a philanderer with motor vehicles.  Finances dictate that I keep it for a while, though.  Still, I'd be happy to trade it in if something really exciting was out there.  But nothing out there says "YES!  I am THE bike you want right now."  My brain wants something along the lines of a BMW F800ST or Ninja 650 (good weather protection, middleweight power, really nice ergonomics), but my heart wants something like a Ducati Supermotard (there's just something cool about that bike) or a Triumph Street Triple (same).  Maybe by the time I've got money to replace the SV, the perfect bike to replace it with will be out there.

I had big hopes for the new VFR to be my next bike (like how I cleverly segued back to the original post there? ), but I'm just really not happy with what I've seen of this so far.  By the way, speaking of "what I've seen so far," there's a high-res gallery at Autoblog.

http://www.autoblog.com/gallery/2010-honda-vfr-1200f/full/

[Mitlov]

By the way, to continue the NT700 tangent slightly, here's Suzuki's most direct competitor with the NT700:



The (Canada-only) V-Strom 650 ABS Touring.

http://www.totalmotorcycle.com/photos/2009models/2009-Suzuki-VStrom650SEAABSTouring.htm

Price is CAN$9,999.  As far as I can tell, Honda Canada doesn't sell the NT700, so we can't do a back-to-back pricing comparison (NT700 is US$9,999 in the US market).  But considering that bikes seem to be about 30% more expensive in Canada in general (in particular, I compared CBR600RR prices for US and Canada), it seems like Suzuki is offering a very comparable bike for 3/4 the price.  Maybe the fit and finish of the Honda is THAT much better, but I don't know.  Still, I haven't sat on an NT700 and it's been a while since I checked out a V-Strom.

By the way, I'm not trying to "win" or anything; I just got curious about hard bag options for the V-Strom and happened to stumble onto this model that I had never heard of before, and it was just so closely related to what we were talking about that I had to share it.

[Guy]

Sorry to interrupt you guy's, I just want to say that I like the look of the VFR. Looks BMW'ish from 3/4 front.

[safristi]

.....THE STIG looks HOT in Black....................................Honda all the way............my 87 Transalp.........is still starting on first "button push" ( i kick it with my heel for olde times sake NOT sake).........Ooooh that 350XLR gave as good as it got...


 Man it looks "small" for a nearly 1,300cc bike....
 

[tpl]

That engine is bigger than the rest-of-the-world Fit/Jazz and only 160 cc smaller than the 1.4 TFSI that goes in some GDM Golfs... double clutch transmission and all.

It is 400 cc larger than a Mk 1 mini as well

Why do motorcycles need such huge engines?

[safristi]

(A) to slow them down...........................

[johngenx]

Why do motorcycles need such huge engines?

They don't.  Cars don't need much more than 1200cc either.  But, some of us with bike blood like our bikes fast.  Really fast.  My last two bikes have been "slow" (The ST was fine, but not capable of providing that big bore sporting machine acceleration hammering) and I miss the insane power some of my previous bikes have provided.

[Guy]

"and I miss the insane power some of my previous bikes have provided."

Well I don't. My previous bike, a FJR1300 had insane power. I much prefer the lightness and handling of my current Aprilia Shiver 750 with it's "modest" 95 HP.

my $.02

[Mitlov]

"and I miss the insane power some of my previous bikes have provided."

Well I don't. My previous bike, a FJR1300 had insane power. I much prefer the lightness and handling of my current Aprilia Shiver 750 with it's "modest" 95 HP.

my $.02

It's a good thing there's more than one bike on the market then In this case, Honda's got the NT700 for the people who think the new VFR is overkill.  The NT700 (is it really not offered in Canada?  That doesn't seem right) is a 700cc V-Twin sport-tourer:



EDIT: and seeing as you like "BMW-ish" looking bikes, it's worth pointing out that BMW's own F800S and F800ST will probably be significantly cheaper than the new VFR   I'd contend though, that in order for this bike to look BMW-ish, it would have to look much more like a winking platypus than it does.

[safristi]

..how do U get a platypus to WINK.......show it some PLATYPUSSY.......... ...groaner alert...

[No H2O]

It would ned to have two things:

• range greater than 400 kms and preferably 500 kms.
• a more comfortable looking seat.

Its good to see they went with a shaft drive.

[johngenx]

Well I don't. My previous bike, a FJR1300 had insane power. I much prefer the lightness and handling of my current Aprilia Shiver 750 with it's "modest" 95 HP.

Different strokes for different folks.  The FJR1300's 145hp is what some would call "barely adequate" in the big bore GT world.

I've ridden an SV650, and those mid sized light bikes are fun, but just not what turns my crank at 5:00am on a cool Sunday morning ride, outside the city, on an undisclosed road, at a "go directly to jail" speed.

Not saying one way is right, just saying what I like...

[rrocket]

Yep..indeed.  People who haven't driven some of the latest big bore hardware just can't grasp how stupendously fast these things are.  My Supra was stupidly fast for a car...but a complete slug compared to a literbike, let alone an open classer like a Busa...