Topic: Stunt driving law deemed Unconstitutional

[vdk]

Speeding is an absolute liability offence which cannot should not result in prison time as you cannot defend yourself against it.

[Jaeger]

Most of the cases I have seen reported are for guys going not only more than 50 over, but waaaay more than 50 over.  Wasn't there some dude who got nabbed doing like 250 in a G35? On the 427? At night?  In the winter? On freakin' snow tires!

Jaeger

Yeah, for some reason the media don't report all the 51kph over the limit charges, or the ones for people showing the intent to spin a tire.  They tend to focus on the the 250kph on the DVP, I have no idea why they would do that.

BTW, that guy was drunk,  there was already a law against that.

And now there's a law against exceeding the speed limit by 50.  The consequences are known.  Choose to go that fast, get caught, face the consequences.  Again, it's not a matter of a police officer's opinion on the nature of your driving, it's measured velocity.  Nobody's forcing the driver to go that fast.

What's your problem with it, exactly?

And how many of those "51 km/hr" cases are there anyway?  Do you know?  I sure don't.

Jaeger

[Triple Bob]

I think the law is unconstitutional, cops now have the power to seize your vehicle and strand you on the side of the road if they don't like your attitude, and it is your word against theirs.

Exactly....police are police.... NOT judges. You should suffer no penalty (vehicle seized license suspended etc) until you are found guilty.

100% AGREE!  You should not have to pay to prove your innocence...

And

Driving a motor vehicle in a manner that indicates an intention to spin it or cause it to circle, without maintaining control over it.

What if I was intending to cause it to circle whilst mantaining complete control?  

The problem with this law is that people are scared of protesting their innocence, be it due to cost, time, or additional penalties.  This is draconian.  It's like someone saying I'm gonna hit you hard, and if you try and stop me I'll hit you three times, and harder still.

[Jaeger]

Speeding is an absolute liability offence which cannot should not result in prison time as you cannot defend yourself against it.

Of course, you could choose to stay within 50 km / hr of the posted limit.  Naaah - that would mean you were taking responsibility for your own actions - can't have that! 

Jaeger

[tenpenny]

Similarly, the Ontario law that allows the province to seize assets that are believed to be from the proceeds of crime, before anyone is found guilty, is just a minor abuse of the system.

I have no issues with severe penalties for criminally dangerous driving, but in Canada we have this system of courts, and we should allow them to do their thing first.

[blur911]

Most of the cases I have seen reported are for guys going not only more than 50 over, but waaaay more than 50 over.  Wasn't there some dude who got nabbed doing like 250 in a G35? On the 427? At night?  In the winter? On freakin' snow tires!

Jaeger

Yeah, for some reason the media don't report all the 51kph over the limit charges, or the ones for people showing the intent to spin a tire.  They tend to focus on the the 250kph on the DVP, I have no idea why they would do that.

BTW, that guy was drunk,  there was already a law against that.

And now there's a law against exceeding the speed limit by 50.  The consequences are known.  Choose to go that fast, get caught, face the consequences.  Again, it's not a matter of a police officer's opinion on the nature of your driving, it's measured velocity.  Nobody's forcing the driver to go that fast.

What's your problem with it, exactly?

And how many of those "51 km/hr" cases are there anyway?  Do you know?  I sure don't.

You make it sound like it was legal to do so before this came along.  You still had to go to court and explain to a judge why you deserved to keep your license before this came along.

The difference is now an overzealous OPP, (or a crooked one with a deal with a tow and impound company) can now leave  you and your wife and child standing at the side of the highway in Moosonee if he deemed he thought you were the one speeding, or trying to spin your tires, or turning left at an intersection when there was someone across from you signalling you to do so (but the cop didn't see it).
Now you get to take the blame and pay the costs, which can be in the thousands, before you even get to see a judge and say "I didn't do it".
But hey, if you think that's fair...

I'm not arguing that we should be allowed to drive 50k over the limit, I'm saying a cop at the side of the road shouldn't be the one to mete out punishment.  
The only reason it ever made it into law in this form is because property rights were removed from our Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms, otherwise it would have been struck down long ago.

BTW, only about a third of the charges have stuck.  Too bad you already had your car impounded and your license suspended for something the judge usually says you didn't deserve.

[Ex-airbalancer]

BTW, only about a third of the charges have stuck.  Too bad you already had your car impounded and your license suspended for something the judge usually says you didn't deserve.

Do you have link for this info?

[Jaeger]

BTW, only about a third of the charges have stuck.  Too bad you already had your car impounded and your license suspended for something the judge usually says you didn't deserve.

You're saying only 1/3 of the charges based on 50 or more over the limit have stuck?  Source?

Jaeger

[blur911]

BTW, only about a third of the charges have stuck.  Too bad you already had your car impounded and your license suspended for something the judge usually says you didn't deserve.

Do you have link for this info?

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2008/06/10/street-racing.html

[Ex-airbalancer]

Speed-related fatalities, according to Fantino, are down almost 42 per cent from the same time last year, proof that the tough laws work.

But in more than 1,000 street-racing cases that have gone to trial so far, almost half the drivers have pleaded down to a lesser charge that carries no roadside suspension.

Depend on what you mean by stuck
With most of the case PLEADING down maybe the judges figure the person will not do it again and thinks lose their car for a week is already enough punishment
It would be nice to see an up to date list

[Jaeger]

BTW, only about a third of the charges have stuck.  Too bad you already had your car impounded and your license suspended for something the judge usually says you didn't deserve.

Do you have link for this info?

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2008/06/10/street-racing.html

Just as I thought.  That's referring to all charges - not those based on excessive speed alone.  Of course when it comes to interpreting the nature of driving there is going to be room for different poeple to see the same actions differently - you, the cop, the judge.  Not really the case where speed is at issue, though.  They can prove beyond a reasonable doubt you were going a certain speed, or they can't.  If you were doing 200 - too bad for you.  You may find a shoulder to cry on, but it won't be mine.

Jaeger

[Jaeger]

Depend on what you mean by stuck
With most of the case PLEADING down maybe the judges figure the person will not do it again and thinks lose their car for a week is already enough punishment
It would be nice to see an up to date list

Exactly.

Jaeger

[blur911]

Speed-related fatalities, according to Fantino, are down almost 42 per cent from the same time last year, proof that the tough laws work.

But in more than 1,000 street-racing cases that have gone to trial so far, almost half the drivers have pleaded down to a lesser charge that carries no roadside suspension.

Depend on what you mean by stuck
With most of the case PLEADING down maybe the judges figure the person will not do it again and thinks lose their car for a week is already enough punishment
It would be nice to see an up to date list

Agree, I'd like to see some up to date statistics as well.  (BTW, speed related fatalities were down all over Canada at that time, remember $1.40/litre gas)
One thing to remember from that chart is that almost a quarter of the people had the charges stayed, dismissed or withdrawn.  They still don't get their money back from the impound lot ($800+) even though they "got off".  Still had to take a cab for a week and whatever other expenses they incurred.

[Ex-airbalancer]

BTW, speed related fatalities were down all over Canada at that time, remember $1.40/litre gas

Where the tracks still busy ?

[tpl]

Blur.  Property rights were NEVER in the Charter as certain premiers refused to sign on if they were in there.

A good reference which explains the whole thing in mindbending detail.

http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection-R/LoPBdP/BP/bp268-e.htm

[toolatecrew]

BTW, only about a third of the charges have stuck.  Too bad you already had your car impounded and your license suspended for something the judge usually says you didn't deserve.

Do you have link for this info?

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/toronto/story/2008/06/10/street-racing.html

Just as I thought.  That's referring to all charges - not those based on excessive speed alone.  Of course when it comes to interpreting the nature of driving there is going to be room for different poeple to see the same actions differently - you, the cop, the judge.  Not really the case where speed is at issue, though.  They can prove beyond a reasonable doubt you were going a certain speed, or they can't.  If you were doing 200 - too bad for you.  You may find a shoulder to cry on, but it won't be mine.

Jaeger

Not sure what you are on about. NO ONE is arguing their should be no law against going 50 KM over. No one is arguing that if you are proven to be going 50 over that you shouldn't be punished severly.

The argument is 1. The STUNT DRIVING law in its entirerty is an issue becuase many parts of the law are at the police discretion. 2. That before you are punsihed you should recive a trial or a chance to confront your accuser. With STUNT RACING cahreges you get punished first (impound car) then get a trial and then if you are found innocent you still bear the costs of impound etc. All you get is a "my bad"?

Why not sepaarte out the excessive speed lawe from the rest?

[blur911]

Blur.  Property rights were NEVER in the Charter as certain premiers refused to sign on if they were in there.

A good reference which explains the whole thing in mindbending detail.

http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collection-R/LoPBdP/BP/bp268-e.htm

Ahhh, I see, I thought they were removed in the '70s, seems they were trying to add them in the '70s and failed.  Property rights thus fall under "Common Law", and not the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

[wing]

BTW, speed related fatalities were down all over Canada at that time, remember $1.40/litre gas

Where the tracks still busy ?

No actually, last summer was tough to get anyone out to the track!

[blur911]

BTW, speed related fatalities were down all over Canada at that time, remember $1.40/litre gas

Where the tracks still busy ?

Seemed busy enough.  Fuel is a fraction of the cost of racing.  Guys who towed long distances missed some races and lapping/track days. I was planning on doing the Solo 2 Nationals but didn't because I didn't want to tow to PEI with an RV.

However, here's an interesting article from last summer.


As pump prices rise, traffic deaths fall, study suggests
Last Updated: Friday, July 11, 2008
CBC News

U.S. researchers suggest higher prices at the pump could prevent more than 1,000 traffic accidents every month, as cost-conscious drivers slow down or stay off the roads in a bid to save cash.
Researchers Michael Morrisey of the University of Alabama at Birmingham and David Grabowski of Harvard Medical School compared traffic deaths and gas price fluctuations between 1985 and 2006.

The researchers suggest that if gas prices in the U.S. continue to hover or rise above current $4 per gallon rates for a year, traffic deaths would fall significantly.

"It is remarkable to think that a per cent change in gas prices can equal lives saved, which is what our data show," Morrisey said in a release issued Thursday.
"For every 10 per cent rise in gas prices, fatalities are reduced by 2.3 per cent."

According to Transport Canada, there were 2,923 traffic deaths across the country in 2005.

[Jaeger]

Not sure what you are on about. NO ONE is arguing their should be no law against going 50 KM over. No one is arguing that if you are proven to be going 50 over that you shouldn't be punished severly.

The argument is 1. The STUNT DRIVING law in its entirerty is an issue becuase many parts of the law are at the police discretion. 2. That before you are punsihed you should recive a trial or a chance to confront your accuser. With STUNT RACING cahreges you get punished first (impound car) then get a trial and then if you are found innocent you still bear the costs of impound etc. All you get is a "my bad"?

Why not sepaarte out the excessive speed lawe from the rest?

Well, that's what the judge did in the case that is the subject of this thread.  It was the "excessive speed" aspect of the law he found to be unconstitutional - not those which rest in part upon police discretion.  That is why I have focussed my comments on that aspect of the law.  That's what I'm on about.  I'm not at all sure what you're on about.

Jaeger