Author Topic: Canadians will have smth to outsell Volt: 2011 Focus EV by Magna  (Read 15682 times)

Offline MKII

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Re: Canadians will have smth to outsell Volt: 2011 Focus EV by Magna
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2009, 08:41:48 am »
So what exactly happens to one of these cars when it has 20 km of range left but is 30 km from home? With a gas engine you can always transport a small container of energy to the car. What do you do with these electric cars?

The electric vehicles from Smith  have on board chargers to allow for 'top-ups' while the vehicle is out on the road. http://www.smithelectricvehicles.com/

Ford N.A. has said they plan to sell between 5,000-10,000 electric vehicles annually.

Regarding price "because the Ford deal is not exclusive, Magna says it can design an EV for other OEMs. The result? Cheaper EVs "

From inside sources at Ford ,  Ford and Magna will be able to produce the EV Focus on the same line as the normal gas Focus at its Michagan Assembly Plant/Wayne Assembly Plant (these two plants are being merged) which will be major cost savings.

Remember that electric cars will not be a useable vehicle for all drivers, but they fill a need for small sector of the market.

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: Canadians will have smth to outsell Volt: 2011 Focus EV by Magna
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2009, 10:11:55 am »
What's wrong with windmills? “ – Sir Osis of Liver

Unpredictable sources like wind and solar mean very little to the grid unless there are means to store the energy they generate.  Sending in electricity to the grid during off-peak hours is just waste.  Output of nuke and coal/gas-fired plants cannot be adjusted easily, so they have to keep generating regardless of wind or solar. Peak-to-valley ratio of the demand is about two-to-one.  If we can store the surplus energy during off peak hours and send back the stored energy during peak hours we do not need new plants and even we can decommission many plants.  Although the wind and solar are more glamorous (scientifically and politically) and their research and construction are easier to get tax money subsidies, first thing is first. Let’s find the way to store the energy they produce. Of course efforts have been made to store the surplus energy… pump-up hydro, NaS battery, flywheels, molten salt etc.  But, the Li-ion battery currently developed for the automotive use is most promising.  In other words, when we have the Li-ion battery suitable for propelling automobiles, then the same battery can be used to store the off-peak hour surplus for peak-hour operation of air conditioners, kitchen stoves, TV’s, computers, baseboard heater, cloths dryers etc. etc.


The winds are a lot more predictable than detractors will let on. It's all about location. NB is fairly lucky in the amount of coastline and hilly regions. The wind is always blowing somewhere here. Wind likely won't be a sole base source, but countries like Denmark have plans for 50% of their energy needs from wind. They currently stand at about 20%. There is no excuse for not doing that here.

If the power isn't required, ie off peak periods, windmills are shut down. No wear and tear, which extends the life of the units. Nuke and thermal plants keep running, but send their power to ground. With wind power available to take up some of the peak load, more thermal plants can be taken off line, at least seasonally.

The ability to use off-peak power to charge vehicles or load shifting by the use of smart meters, would greatly increase the overall efficiency of the grid.

Commercial power storage is hugely expensive. It's why nobody does it.
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Re: Canadians will have smth to outsell Volt: 2011 Focus EV by Magna
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2009, 12:06:39 pm »
For electric cars to really work. You need battery changing station network. There plenty of dealerships across Canada which could be set up for this It also maybe away for oil companies to diversify setting up battery changing stations. The problem I see with electric cars it that you can't take off. For instants to Toronto. Even if you live say 35 clicks. 70 clicks round trip. 30 to spare for unforeseen. It would be cutting to tight. To me it is like building a petrol car to only fill at home. Cars can't be design this way. They never were.  This is not going to work. unless we adopt a battery changing stations. I've said this before on here. :)

Offline EV Dan

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Re: Canadians will have smth to outsell Volt: 2011 Focus EV by Magna
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2009, 12:57:50 pm »
"If the power isn't required, ie off peak periods, windmills are shut down. No wear and tear, which extends the life of the units. Nuke and thermal plants keep running, but send their power to ground. With wind power available to take up some of the peak load, more thermal plants can be taken off line, at least seasonally."

Good point, I didn't realize commercial windmills can be stopped. I'm sure they will require way less maintenance, maybe replacement of ball bearings, even whole generators, and in any case everything is recyclable and there is no toxic or radioactive waste.

About the predicted or speculated cost of the BEV.
Today Sky Energy, which is thought to be related to Thunder Sky, both are leading Chinese LiFePO4 makers, are offering cells at $0.35 Watt*Hour and that is for small retail orders. Even at that price a 23kWh battery proposed for the Focus will cost 350*23= $8050. It is very likely that a wholesale price, in 2 years will be around half of that. keeping in mind that an EV is mechanically less complex compared to an ICE car, it is possible the final price tag could be close to a "normal" focus. However, from the day 1 the owners will be saving hundreds of dollars a month in operating costs.
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Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: Canadians will have smth to outsell Volt: 2011 Focus EV by Magna
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2009, 01:30:11 pm »
Good point, I didn't realize commercial windmills can be stopped. I'm sure they will require way less maintenance, maybe replacement of ball bearings, even whole generators, and in any case everything is recyclable and there is no toxic or radioactive waste.

New designs have variable pitch aerofoils which allow them to achieve higher efficiency over a wider range of wind speeds. It also allows them to be flared and shut down easily. That reduces the stress (gyroscopic effect) on the hub of trying to turn a spinning windmill out of the wind.

Most all commercial wind turbines use motors to turn them into, or out of, the wind. They are also equipped with mechanical brakes to keep them from rotating when not in use.

Offline G35X

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Re: Canadians will have smth to outsell Volt: 2011 Focus EV by Magna
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2009, 04:58:06 pm »
The winds are a lot more predictable than detractors will let on. It's all about location. NB is fairly lucky in the amount of coastline and hilly regions. The wind is always blowing somewhere here. Wind likely won't be a sole base source, but countries like Denmark have plans for 50% of their energy needs from wind… “ – Sir Osis of Liver

Thank you for the information. If nuke plants cover the base load and many, many, many peaking windmills cover the rest, then we can micromanage the supply making the grid very efficient and at the same time doing away with offending coal/gas-fired plants. With NB’s windmills, hydro plants in Quebec and BC, Canada can be the model for low CO2 emission from power generation…

If the power isn't required, ie off peak periods, windmills are shut down. No wear and tear, which extends the life of the units… “ - Sir Osis of Liver

During the shutdown period, there is no income for the windmill operators. Many government authorities force grid operators to buy windmill power (subsidised by them) even during off-peak hours. Take California for example, the operators have to shut down hydro plants in Oregon in order to accept the windmill power, which must be more expensive.  Therefore, windmills really need a good storage buffer.

If wear and tear of the windmill is a problem, then the new slow-speed rotary rod mill might be the answer:
http://www.mecaro.jp/eng/index.html

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Re: Canadians will have smth to outsell Volt: 2011 Focus EV by Magna
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2009, 10:22:13 pm »
For electric cars to really work. You need battery changing station network. There plenty of dealerships across Canada which could be set up for this It also maybe away for oil companies to diversify setting up battery changing stations. The problem I see with electric cars it that you can't take off. For instants to Toronto. Even if you live say 35 clicks. 70 clicks round trip. 30 to spare for unforeseen. It would be cutting to tight. To me it is like building a petrol car to only fill at home. Cars can't be design this way. They never were.  This is not going to work. unless we adopt a battery changing stations. I've said this before on here. :)

This is a very good reason why I think hydrogen is a more realistic solution than batteries: it's the same thing we're doing now, except it's not petrol coming out of the pump but hydrogen.  We don't have to change habits.

Of course, it still requires a substantial infrastructure investment, but all we'd be doing (essentially) is adding another pump to existing gas stations.  Once the technology gets to where it needs to be, it's relatively easy to build the infrastructure side-by-side with existing service stations.

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Re: Canadians will have smth to outsell Volt: 2011 Focus EV by Magna
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2009, 11:47:20 pm »
There are few drawbacks of H2 which I can't clearly describe at midnight.  :-[ However I'm looking forward to see a car with a freshly filled tank of hydrogen which catches  fire due to faulty electric wires, motor, controller and what not. Talk about the Big Bang  ;D

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: Canadians will have smth to outsell Volt: 2011 Focus EV by Magna
« Reply #28 on: March 24, 2009, 03:56:37 am »

During the shutdown period, there is no income for the windmill operators. Many government authorities force grid operators to buy windmill power (subsidised by them) even during off-peak hours. Take California for example, the operators have to shut down hydro plants in Oregon in order to accept the windmill power, which must be more expensive.  Therefore, windmills really need a good storage buffer.

If wear and tear of the windmill is a problem, then the new slow-speed rotary rod mill might be the answer:
http://www.mecaro.jp/eng/index.html


Politics, especially US utility politics is generally going to be counter productive. Not much we can do about that.

Nice application of the Magnus effect.

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Re: Canadians will have smth to outsell Volt: 2011 Focus EV by Magna
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2009, 05:34:52 am »
There are few drawbacks of H2 which I can't clearly describe at midnight.  :-[ However I'm looking forward to see a car with a freshly filled tank of hydrogen which catches  fire due to faulty electric wires, motor, controller and what not. Talk about the Big Bang  ;D
Really. Apart from the pressure tank opening up I thought we'd just see a big puff of nearly invisible ( in daylight) flame and any other burning would be the materials of the car not the H2 itself.    All those pictures of the Hindenburg were 90% the highly inflammable gas bags and skin ( doped cotton fabric IIRC)  burning.
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Re: Canadians will have smth to outsell Volt: 2011 Focus EV by Magna
« Reply #30 on: March 24, 2009, 01:13:26 pm »
There are few drawbacks of H2 which I can't clearly describe at midnight.  :-[ However I'm looking forward to see a car with a freshly filled tank of hydrogen which catches  fire due to faulty electric wires, motor, controller and what not. Talk about the Big Bang  ;D
Really. Apart from the pressure tank opening up I thought we'd just see a big puff of nearly invisible ( in daylight) flame and any other burning would be the materials of the car not the H2 itself.    All those pictures of the Hindenburg were 90% the highly inflammable gas bags and skin ( doped cotton fabric IIRC)  burning.
Yep. H2 dissipates quickly so it doesn't pool or coat things/people. There are other drawbacks though.

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Re: Canadians will have smth to outsell Volt: 2011 Focus EV by Magna
« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2009, 09:35:54 pm »
Where I work they prevented construction of an enclosed bicycle storage room in the underground parking because it would include lockers which would contain clothing which is flammable.  So it would seem odd to allow hydrogen fueled cars in underground parking. Not sure I'd want to live or work above that.

Quote
Unpredictable sources like wind and solar mean very little to the grid unless there are means to store the energy they generate.

I'm quite tired of the criticism of wind power that it is discontinuous.  Any wind power will be connected to a grid.  Virtually any grid in North America includes hydro power.  Hydro power is from dams.  Dams act like big buffers.  When the wind blows, you keep whatever water behind the dams balances the power generated by windmills.  When the wind dies, you use that stored water to make up for the absent wind power.  It is, in fact, a perfect combination of technologies and requires nothing other than the control systems already in place.

Simple. 

I can't believe how many people buy into the nonsense about interruptibility crippling wind power.  Exactly the same goes for solar power.  We can't solve our problems on the basis of bad information.
And some cretins think I hate cars.

Offline G35X

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Re: Canadians will have smth to outsell Volt: 2011 Focus EV by Magna
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2009, 05:14:46 pm »
When the wind blows, you keep whatever water behind the dams balances the power generated by windmills.  When the wind dies, you use that stored water to make up for the absent wind power… “ – X-Traction

Although hydro output is more controllable than the output from nuke and coal/gas-fired plants, I do not think to-day’s grid system is smart enough to micromanage hydro plants in real-time fashion.  The grid operators are forecasting demands 24 hours ahead with manual adjustment for one hour ahead.  To maintain quality (voltage and phase) of product grid operators let power plants generate considerably more energy than the forecast demand.  The balance is just wasted.  Take a look at the CAISO supply/demand chart:
http://www.caiso.com/outlook/outlook.html

There is a tremendous amount of surplus energy in the grid system in North America.  The maximum capacity of power plants is designed so as to meet the demand during the hottest days of the summer or coldest and darkest days of the winter.  Other times a good amount the surplus energy generated by non-controllable plants is just wasted.  This is the reason why EV’s make sense.  The surplus energy can easily charge up millions of EV’s every night contributing to the nation’s reduction of CO2 emissions.

BTW, using hydro as a buffer for non-polluting sources such as wind and solar defeats the purpose of those new energy sources.  The idea is to build many wind and solar plants to replace offending coal/gas-fired plants.  So, use batteries, Li-ion or NaS, as their buffers.

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Re: Canadians will have smth to outsell Volt: 2011 Focus EV by Magna
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2009, 05:35:58 pm »
I thought that some  systems in the western USA  actually used spare night time power to pump water back uphill into smallish reservoirs to use with smallish turbines for peak management.
MAybe this was designed but never actually done.

Quote
BTW, using hydro as a buffer for non-polluting sources such as wind and solar defeats the purpose of those new energy sources.  The idea is to build many wind and solar plants to replace offending coal/gas-fired plants.  So, use batteries, Li-ion or NaS, as their buffers.


I would think that hydro being not only clean and none polluting but also serves the leisure industry would be a perfect back up system.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2009, 05:38:46 pm by tpl »

Offline MKII

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Re: Canadians will have smth to outsell Volt: 2011 Focus EV by Magna
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2009, 06:23:36 pm »
Sorry to cut in on your windmill info, but here is some more Ford future energy stuff

Ford Motor Company has given a boost to its electric vehicle strategy
by announcing a new plug-in hybrid battery supplier and an expansion of its U.S. electric
vehicle test programme.
The new supply partner is Johnson Controls-Saft, which will develop an advanced lithiumion
battery system to power Ford’s first commercial plug-in hybrid (PHEV).
Additionally, to speed up the commercialisation of plug-in hybrid electric vehicles, seven
regional electric utility partners are joining Ford and the Electric Power Research Institute
(EPRI) to conduct real-world tests on an expanding fleet of Escape PHEVs.

Offline G35X

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Re: Canadians will have smth to outsell Volt: 2011 Focus EV by Magna
« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2009, 07:00:06 pm »
MKII, thank you for the information.  Since Saft is a French company I think its interest in plug-in vehicles is high, inasmuch as France, like Japan, is heavily dependant on the nuke power.

“  I thought that some systems in the western USA  actually used spare night time power to pump water back uphill into smallish reservoirs to use with smallish turbines for peak management… “ – tpl

There are many pump-up hydro plants in the world. Canada has one in Niagara.  Japan has more than 40 plants and some of them are very powerful; as much as 2,700MW.  The reason why there are so many in Japan is that the country depends heavily on the “uncontrollable” nuke, the surplus output of which must be utilized somehow, even though in the process of pumping up and releasing the water back down again they lose about 30% of energy (still much better than dumping into the ground).

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Re: Canadians will have smth to outsell Volt: 2011 Focus EV by Magna
« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2009, 10:32:34 pm »
I would think that hydro being not only clean and none polluting but also serves the leisure industry would be a perfect back up system.

There are environmental concerns with building hydro plants, too.  Now, I'm of the opinion that they are still better than lots of the alternatives, but you will get people being very vocal about the damage done to wildlife and the like.  By their nature, hydro plants do need to be in rather sensitive areas a lot of the time.

But overall, I think various forms of hydro are the best bet.  Underwater turbines fuelled by the outgoing and incoming tide seem to me to be an excellent, consistent power source for those on the coast, for example.

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Re: Canadians will have smth to outsell Volt: 2011 Focus EV by Magna
« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2009, 10:36:49 pm »
Quote from: G35X
The maximum capacity of power plants is designed so as to meet the demand during the hottest days of the summer or coldest and darkest days of the winter.  Other times a good amount the surplus energy generated by non-controllable plants is just wasted.

There are organizations such as BC Hydro's Powerex that trade electricity on a minute-by-minute basis.  They buy "surplus" power from marginally controllable sources such as thermal plants in the US and Alberta - cheap - and "store" the equivalent hydro power behind BC's dams. Then, when the US needs peak power, Powerex has power generated using the stored water and sells the power back to the US at a nice markup.  There are many organizations comprising thousands of people throughout North America engaging in this real-time, round-the-clock trading.  (In fact, on rare occasions US generators have PAID Powerex to take power, so they don't have to temporarily shut down thermal generating units.)  See FERC and NERC.

So, with dams in the grid, there is no need to "waste" electricity, and other than the most marginal circumstances, it just doesn't happen.  In the same sense, there is not "surplus" generating capacity.  Why else would there be so much drive to both conserve electricity and build more power plants?  It also should be mentioned that some of these dams, such as the WAC Bennet Dam, contain multi-year supplies.  So in that sense there is always capacity to store more water so that no power in the grid is wasted.

Quote
BTW, using hydro as a buffer for non-polluting sources such as wind and solar defeats the purpose of those new energy sources.

While I readily agree hydro has severe environmental impacts, do you know how much resources it takes to make those huge windmills and semiconductors?  Apparently it takes as much energy to make 10 pc's as to make a car.  Vastly better than coal/nuclear plants, of course.

First you said "Unpredictable sources like wind and solar mean very little to the grid unless there are means to store the energy they generate."  Now you're saying that using hydro as a buffer defeats the purpose of wind and solar.  Can you elaborate on that?  I  think they couldn't complement each other better.  Yes, batteries also act like buffers, but massive implementation batteries has a substantial cost.  I bet the impact is greater than storing water, for instance.

In my opinion, the chart you provided a link to does not show generated power vs power used (demand).  I believe it shows generation potential against load/demand.  It said the green line is "available resources forecast". This is useful to plan ahead to avoid brownouts.  Such as knowing ahead of time when you might need to buy power from Powerex, so you can arrange a contract and avoid costly last-minute purchases.  If I am correct about the chart, it means it is not proof there is vast wasted electricity.  It means there is CAPACITY, but you have to burn coal etc. to get the electricity.  I expect there are similar charts for longer timeframes, and even shorter ones.

IF California had such a surplus of electricity as you claim the graph proves, then they'd be pretty stupid not to sell it to someone else, or open a bunch of aluminum smelters.

The granularity of the green line representing capacity, also demonstrates that by managing different sized units at numerous thermal plants, there is extremely fine tuning of the amount of power generated, thus minimizing waste. Waste that can always be sold to the dam owners, of course.

The extra capacity you see on the graph is needed for peak load.  In California, peak load happens on the hottest summer days, to serve air conditioning.  At those times, the existing generation is fully used, and places like BC have to backfill places like California by using more water from dams to generate more power to sell to them.  I leave it to you how electric cars will be charged up during peak load.

There certainly is a cost to the excess capacity that has to be built into the system to meet peak loads. But because of their varying characteristics, integrating via the grid: thermal, nuclear, hydro, wind and solar sources allows minimizing the size and capacity of the thermal (coal/gas) and, hopefully, nuclear plants.  That's the main reason why grids exist.

I think we agree that electrifying transportation is an excellent idea.  But there's a fly in the ointment.  All clean/renewable power sources are fully utilized.  There is no spare "clean/renewable" capacity.  Any gap between capacity and demand on clean/renewable power is used to displace "dirty" sources like coal and nuclear.

This means that any new demand, such as electrifying transportation, can only be met by thermal and nuclear generation; or more dams, wind and solar sources.  Except at peak loads, when there is no spare capacity.  And this means that unless increased demand by electrified transportation is met only with increased hydro/wind/solar or conservation, electric cars actually are powered by coal and nuclear.  Not what we had in mind.

Now it's not fair blame electric cars for that, other than that they would be a new demand.  It may mean that adoption of electric cars and their demands on the power grid have to be matched with gains in clean generation and electricity conservation.  This combination will require a MASSIVE amount of capital, and I just don't see the public sensing the urgency with which we need to do this.  Not to mention being in a capital squeeze already.

20 years ago I warned some managers at a large provincial utility of the problem posed by electric cars (and of the threat to hydro generation resulting from glaciers melting), but of course I sounded like a lunatic then.

Now it's time to ride my bicycle home. On nasty days, I commute on the electric-powered, linear induction motored, driverless, regenerative-braking, scenic, Canadian-made SkyTrain.

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Re: Canadians will have smth to outsell Volt: 2011 Focus EV by Magna
« Reply #38 on: March 25, 2009, 11:22:04 pm »
There are few drawbacks of H2 gasoline which I can't clearly describe at midnight.  :-[ However I'm looking forward to see a car with a freshly filled tank of hydrogen gasoline which catches  fire due to faulty electric wires, motor, controller and what not. Talk about the Big Bang  ;D

Fixed that for you, DanYanoff.

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Re: Canadians will have smth to outsell Volt: 2011 Focus EV by Magna
« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2009, 11:43:27 am »
I think we have a nice off-shoot thread going here about grid power, maybe one of the mods could move part of the discussion to the "off-topic" section?

I think hydro is a well established "green" source of energy, though not entirely green due to some of the other negative effects caused by the dams, mostly related to flooding.  But there is also micro-hydro, which for some reason, I recalled was not something that the big electric utilities were too keen on.

Similar to hydro, or possibly maybe it's another type of hydro, I've heard there was potential to tap into using ocean waves along certain coastlines where they were consistent and strong.  There's also geo-thermal sources of energy, as well as solar and wind.

I think that there is enough "green" energy out there that, given the necessary advances in technology and the right political will, the grid could eventually be 100% green.

Unfortunately, I think there is too much vested interest in some of the big players in traditional technology that it will be a very long time before we see this, probably not even in our lifetime, though strictly from a technological standpoint, I don't see why not with the types of advances they can make in just a few short years.