Topic: Canadians will have smth to outsell Volt: 2011 Focus EV by Magna

[EV Dan]

Largely unnoticed by the mainstream press (and the government) this little car may represent the change and turn to profitability we so badly need in the automotive sector. Magna is the kind of company that should be getting "bailout" money today because tomorrow it will be able to hire the former big 3 employees and other skilled professionals and help grow our economy. I wonder also if the batteries could be made around here as well, Electrovaya being first company that comes to mind.


http://money.cnn.com/2009/03/20/autos/ford_electric/index.htm

Ford's ready-made electric car
Ford saved big money by partnering with parts supplier Magna to develop its competitor to the Chevy Volt.

By Peter Valdes-Dapena, CNNMoney.com senior writer
March 20, 2009: 5:48 AM ET

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- Ford is preparing to sell an electric car developed almost entirely by an outside supplier. While that may cut down on bragging rights - General Motors created the Chevy Volt in-house - Ford says it also cut down on costs and risk.

In other words, why invent the electric wheel when somebody else can do it for you?

Meanwhile, Ford's partner, auto supplier Magna International, is offering to do for other carmakers what it's done for Ford, and possibly more. If you're a carmaker and you want to sell an electric car, Magna says it's ready to design it and build it for you.

The electric Ford Focus, due out in early 2011, is largely the product of Canada-based auto parts and assembly supplier Magna International (MGA). Magna developed the car mostly on its own, building it inside a Ford Focus body for demonstration purposes.
Adding up the miles

Unlike the Volt, Ford's electric Focus will not be a "range extended car." In other words, it won't have an on-board gasoline-powered generator to pump out more electricity for longer drives.

The Focus will not burn gasoline and will go about 100 miles on a charge. Before hitting the road again, drivers will have to wait to recharge.

Meanwhile, the Volt will only go 40 miles before needing to burn gasoline - still farther than most people drive in a typical day, GM says - but it will have a 300 mile total range.

In August, 2008, Magna presented its electric car to Ford engineers and executives.

"We took a look at that execution and said, 'Hey, together we can really make this a proposition," said Nancy Gioia, Ford's Director of Sustainable Mobility.

Five months later, in January, 2009, Ford (F, Fortune 500) announced its intention to produce the car at the Detroit Auto Show.

Ford had been discussing electric vehicle requirements, in general, with Magna for more than two years, Gioia said, but that was the first time anyone outside of Magna had seen the car.

It was after the August meeting that Ford became seriously involved in the project, providing details and feedback to help make the car feasible for production and to make sure it was the sort of car Ford wanted to sell.
A leg up in electric driving

Magna, a wide-ranging auto industry supplier - it even has a European subsidiary, Magna Steyr, that builds vehicles for BMW, Mercedes-Benz, GM and Chrysler in an Austrian factory - has expressed interest before in designing, engineering and building an entire car.
0:00 /3:28Electric car closer to market

In this case, Magna founder and chairman Frank Stronach asked his engineers to develop an electric car that could be sold under any brand by any carmaker, said Ted Robertson, Magna's chief technical officer for the Americas.

"It's a generic system we were designing so it could be put into anybody's vehicle," Robertson said.

The Focus wasn't chosen because Magna wanted Ford as a customer, Robertson insisted. It was chosen simply because it was the right size, it was light and its design - particularly the suspension design - allowed engineers to experiment with different layouts for the car's electric drive systems.

"We needed to develop the parts not only in the computer, but we needed to build a vehicle to do a proof of concept," he said.

The car drives just like a gasoline-powered Focus, said Bill Pochiluk, an industry analyst with Automotive Compass. The electric Focus's 100-mile range will do just fine most of the time.

"This vehicles makes you wonder: why do we need the Volt?" said Pochiluk.

Ford could have developed an electric car on their own, but Magna's work allowed the carmaker to bypass a lot of expensive engineering and development work, Pochiluk said.

"This certainly leapfrogged a lot of what Ford had been thinking," he said.

Ford, in fact, would have developed some sort of an electric car on its own had Magna not come forward, Gioia said.

The electric Focus will go on sale in early 2011 and it will be based on the next-generation Ford Focus small car. By then, it should be Ford's second electric vehicle. The first will be a small electric work van that's scheduled to go on sale next year. Ford also partnered with an outside supplier, Britain's Smith Electric vehicles, to make the van.

Magna's agreement with Ford isn't exclusive. Magna plans to sell the system to other carmakers besides Ford and, said Gioia, Ford has no problem with that.

"In fact, we encourage it," she said. "We want Magna to be successful."

For Ford, the strategy is similar to the approach taken with the carmakers' popular Sync in-car entertainment system. That system, which Ford credits with boosting sales of its current Focus compact car, was developed in partnership with Microsoft and the software giant retains the right to sell it to other automakers.

If Ford had insisted on exclusive rights to use these systems, Microsoft and Magna would have had to charge much higher fees to cover their costs. That would have erased the financial benefit of having an outside company develop the systems.

In this case, Magna is even developing its own car body in case a a customer doesn't have one to use. And Magna can even produce the car in its factory, if a carmaker wants, said Robertson.

"If a car company doesn't have an electric vehicle and they want one," he said, "we'd be happy to do one for them."

[PJungnitsch]

Wow, props to Magna, they snuck that one in under the radar.

A vehicle like that (200 mile range if plugged in at work) could replace most commuter vehicles. Imagine not stopping at a gas station again, ever.

I guess you would have to buy your own squeegee, or take a chance on being chased away by irate gas station owners.

[safristi]

"smth"? ...why not "jons"....OR "davis"................I use  Saf when i check in ta  Fantasy MOTEL............

[Cortina]

I wonder if make any sound or will sound like a milk float. I heard you have to watch for people closely when comes to electricks or hybrids.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

That Focus is really a nice looking car.

Wonder what the MSRP for the 'lectric is going to be?

[MKII]

Video with Magna's Dick Devogelaere and Ford's Greg Frenette test driving a BEV Focus.
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/01/14/abg-quick-drive-ford-focus-ev-mule-w-video/

&

Bill Vlasic of the New York Times accompanied by Ford's Nancy Gioia and Barbara Samardzich
http://video.nytimes.com/video/2009/01/10/automobiles/1231544889183/ford-s-new-electric-car.html

[MKII]

Smith Electric Vehicles Collaboration with Ford Motor Company

Smith Electric Vehicles, a trading division of The Tanfield Group Plc, will work with Ford to introduce a battery-electric light van, the first vehicle in the company's broad electrification strategy for the North American market which was announced at this year's Detroit Auto Show. This vehicle will be based on the European-designed Ford Transit Connect which goes on sale in North America this year.

The vehicle, which Smith will assemble in North America, will have a range of up to 100 miles on a full charge, without compromising the Transit Connect's superior driving experience. It will operate very similarly to a conventional light van, but with smoother acceleration, less noise and zero emissions. The vehicle will be fully branded as a Ford product and will go on sale through selected Ford dealerships in North America in 2010.
http://www.autobloggreen.com/2009/02/09/ford-confirms-transit-connect-ev-with-smith-electric-for-2010/

[sailor723]

I hate to rain on anyone's parade but.........

Does it really go 100 miles (160kms) on a charge?...if so,at what speed?...driven how gingerly?

Will it do that range in winter temps of -10 or-20C?

On the other hand,if it really is a practical option it's going to make GM and the Volt look pretty stupid! Betamax anyone?

[Cord]

So what exactly happens to one of these cars when it has 20 km of range left but is 30 km from home? With a gas engine you can always transport a small container of energy to the car. What do you do with these electric cars?

[tpl]

So what exactly happens to one of these cars has 20 km of range left but is 30 km from home? With a gas engine you can always transport a small container of energy to the car. What do you do with these electric cars?

Or it is 15 km from home and it encounters a traffic jam.   ( I am thinking of one I hit.  Just passed Guelph line on the 401 heading west and the traffic stopped dead. ) Only 10 KM or so to 6 North with plenty of gas stations ( recharging stations) and its winter and the lights and heater are on.....

[EV Dan]

"I guess you would have to buy your own squeegee, or take a chance on being chased away by irate gas station owners."   Good 1. I guess there are flaws in everything no matter how good it sounds at first.  

About the sound I'm not sure, still have to watch the vids posted by MKII. I saw a clip of a real life Tesla ride, and the electric sound was fantastic, it was jet -like that changed tone with acceleration and regen. braking and to my ears it was music, as the car made no other noises whatsoever, no brake squeals, no rattles.

About -20 temperatures, EV enthusiasts seem to have solved it by making a well insulated battery enclosure with heating elements in it. Don't imagine a kitchen stove here, as the temperature is fine if kept around zero. There won't be much energy consumption to heat up the box. Besides since the EV was designed by Magna, surely they would have though it through.

Its great to see how much is being done in Canada in short time to stay competitive in the world market. There is also a company in Quebec that takes part in building the B0 (b-zero).

[G35X]

What’s so significant about the Magna EV?  Anybody can make an EV if there is a high-capacity power storage device that is small, light and economical enough for automotive use. About 60 years ago there was a model called Tama used for local taxis in Tokyo.  The manufacturer of Tama later merged with Prince Motor Company (the originators of GT-R), which in turn absorbed into Nissan in the mid-60’s.  Compared to hybrids and EREV (GM Volt) straight EV’s are much simpler mechanically and software wise.  It is not too late. Canada should allocate more money to battery R&D rather than wasting recourses (human and monetary) in windmills and fuel cells.

Smith Electric Vehicles…? Do you really trust Smith products?  Today’s reliability in automotive industry is measured in ppm rather than percent.

[EV Dan]

Another thing thats been brought up is the BEV's extra couple of hundred lb due to the battery weight. Despite of that the vehicle is still quicker than an ICE Focus, and I suppose in 2 years when it goes in production the battery weight will already be reduced, or which is more likely, the capacity will go up. The good thing is if Magna decides to place batteries under the floor, with lower center of gravity cornering will certainly benefit, again compared to a higher placed ICE and gas tank of a conventional Focus.

Every once in a while I see cars on the side of the road with empty tanks and their owners running around trying to find a gas station. There always be cases like that with ppl who forgot to fill up or charge. If the infrastructure is still not there by the time of the mass release, I can clearly see CAA trucks with diesel gens on board looking for customers in need of a boost. Another (funnier) but yet practical option is to haul a portable generator in the car  

[EV Dan]

It is not too late. Canada should allocate more money to battery R&D rather than wasting recourses (human and monetary) in windmills and fuel cells.

+1. I get an impression thats the government's leading strategy now is wait and see what Americans will do and maybe we will copy some of that or better yet we should sit tight until the recession is over and then we have more oil in Alberta.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

What's wrong with windmills?
We'll have somewhere in the vicinity of 400MW of wind power in NB within the next few years.

Lepreau GS, our resident nuke plant is only 640MW. The highest output on our grid is Coleson Cove GS at 1050MW. It currently burns heavy oil ($$$).

The operating costs of a nuke plant are fairly low, but initial capital, refurbishment and decommissioning costs are insane.

[rrocket]

100 mile range?  And will likely cost close to $40K?  Sorry..this isn't the car that will do anything to save anyone.

Ford already has such a car.  It's called a Ford Fiesta with the EcoDiesel.  It's cleaner, lighter, less complex and delivers better MPG than any hybrid on the market.  Not to mention cheap to buy compared to hybrids.  All they have to do is bring it across the pond.

[G35X]

“ What's wrong with windmills? “ – Sir Osis of Liver

Unpredictable sources like wind and solar mean very little to the grid unless there are means to store the energy they generate.  Sending in electricity to the grid during off-peak hours is just waste.  Output of nuke and coal/gas-fired plants cannot be adjusted easily, so they have to keep generating regardless of wind or solar. Peak-to-valley ratio of the demand is about two-to-one.  If we can store the surplus energy during off peak hours and send back the stored energy during peak hours we do not need new plants and even we can decommission many plants.  Although the wind and solar are more glamorous (scientifically and politically) and their research and construction are easier to get tax money subsidies, first thing is first. Let’s find the way to store the energy they produce. Of course efforts have been made to store the surplus energy… pump-up hydro, NaS battery, flywheels, molten salt etc.  But, the Li-ion battery currently developed for the automotive use is most promising.  In other words, when we have the Li-ion battery suitable for propelling automobiles, then the same battery can be used to store the off-peak hour surplus for peak-hour operation of air conditioners, kitchen stoves, TV’s, computers, baseboard heater, cloths dryers etc. etc.

[KRS]

Every once in a while I see cars on the side of the road with empty tanks and their owners running around trying to find a gas station. There always be cases like that with ppl who forgot to fill up or charge. If the infrastructure is still not there by the time of the mass release, I can clearly see CAA trucks with diesel gens on board looking for customers in need of a boost. Another (funnier) but yet practical option is to haul a portable generator in the car  

  The difference here to my mind is that a CAA truck can show up and put a couple of gallons of gas in in a minute or two. How long would the truck need to be there while a generator ran trying to recharge the EV?

  I hope that the electric vehicle develops as quickly as some feel it is but I would need a car capable of at least 250 km to be usable to me due to distances I routinely travel and the fact that no place I've worked for in Ontario will let you plug in a block heater, let alone an electric car. A 400 km range is what it would take to make me believe I didn't need another car for the many occasions when i need to travel greater  distances then normal, which means to me, if i have to keep a second vehicle, then the electric needs to be inexpensive to make financial sense. I can't see an electric car meeting either of those targets in the forseeable future. In larger urban areas where most people travel shorter distances the ability to recharge for many apartment dwellers remains a huge issue.
 
  Even the disposal of the batteries when the life cycle of the battery appears to be a potential environmental problem to this technology being the near term answer. I do hope that the research on going makes these vehicles possible soon but I remain sceptical. Certainly a $40k (if that is the price) focus with a 160 mile  range isn't the answer for me but if it works for you great. I'd agree with rrocket in that I'd rather take the fiesta with the ecodiesel. 

[The Mighty Duck]

Assumptions about the price should not be made without more information.  Judging a vehicle based on what someone assumes (guesses) the price will be is silly, at best.

As to the point about running out of juice and being recharged: presently NiMH batteries can be recharged in as little as 15 minutes.  I don't doubt that, given time and research, there will come a point when these batteries can also be recharged in short time.

Likewise, charging infrastructure (e.g., in apartment buildings) will begin to emerge once some of these vehicles start hitting the roads.  The new Palm Pre cell phone can be charged simply by placing it near a special charging pad - imagine in a few years when you simply need park your car in your regular space and it will be charged.  Hell, in the very long term roads could be built with these charging pads built in, and you wouldn't even need the batteries.

I think battery technology certainly has lots of potential.

That said, there's also something to be said for hydrogen.  If a big advance is made soon in hydrogen technology, then concerns about batteries and charging may well become moot. 

[G35X]

“  …there's also something to be said for hydrogen… “ – Demosthenes

Although hydrogen fuel cell looks like it has hit a dead-end, there is a ray of hope for non-precious metal catalyser.  If its cost goes down to at least 1/10 of what it is today, it will become a viable alternative to fossil fuel engines.  In that case, the surplus grid electricity I mentioned earlier in this thread can be used at the existing gas stations to split water to get H2 thus eliminating the concern about availability.  Of course in this case we have to worry about safety (fire, compressed gas, high-voltage/high-current electricity, O2 released into the atmosphere etc.).

Since the fuel cell automobiles are essentially EV’s, money spent on R&D of electric motors, high-power semis, control software and storage will not be wasted in either case (EV or FC).  I think FC automobiles also need a buffer storage device.

BTW Advanced Lithium Power Co. of Vancouver, BC is said to be engaged in R&D of automotive use Li-ion cells.  I hope this company is not one of those Vancouver companies making many press releases trying to raise money at the Vancouver Stock Exchange.