Topic: Motor Trend: Mustang bests Genesis Coupe V6

[Jaeger]

Nice bait and switch. He's discussing the MT review, you quote the Edmunds article.Edmunds would have written the same review regardless. They very rarely hide their import bias.

The bias claim is as tired as it is transparent.  Had MT picked the Genesis over the Mustang you would no doubt have been bleating just as loudly about their bias. 

And bait and switch has nothing to do with anything - I was contrasting the two reviews as a means of explaining why I saw one as "unqualified" recommendation for the winner, but not the other.  And also to emphasize the different aprroach taken by the two reviews.  The MT piece did not undertake any formal analysis of the comparative merits of Mustang versus Z - but rather, each of those cars versus the Genesis.  Edmunds DID directly compare those two - and only those two - and thus stands as perhaps the more cogent in respect of illuminating the comparative merits of those two vehicles.

Re: the 370Z 

Car and Driver:  "The best sports car on the planet for the money?  Damn right!"

Road and Track thought a better car to compare the 370Z to was the Cayman S.  I don't think there will be comparisons to the Cayman S with either a Mustang or a Genesis Coupe people...

Exactly.  And I thought the Z did quite admirably against a vehicle twice its price.

Jaeger

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Nice bait and switch. He's discussing the MT review, you quote the Edmunds article.Edmunds would have written the same review regardless. They very rarely hide their import bias.

The bias claim is as tired as it is transparent.  Had MT picked the Genesis over the Mustang you would no doubt have been bleating just as loudly about their bias. 

And bait and switch has nothing to do with anything - I was contrasting the two reviews as a means of explaining why I saw one as "unqualified" recommendation for the winner, but not the other.  And also to emphasize the different aprroach taken by the two reviews.  The MT piece did not undertake any formal analysis of the comparative merits of Mustang versus Z - but rather, each of those cars versus the Genesis.  Edmunds DID directly compare those two - and only those two - and thus stands as perhaps the more cogent in respect of illuminating the comparative merits of those two vehicles.

Re: the 370Z 

Car and Driver:  "The best sports car on the planet for the money?  Damn right!"

Road and Track thought a better car to compare the 370Z to was the Cayman S.  I don't think there will be comparisons to the Cayman S with either a Mustang or a Genesis Coupe people...

Exactly.  And I thought the Z did quite admirably against a vehicle twice its price.

Jaeger

What's the likelyhood of anyone cross shopping the $40k 370Z with the $34k Mustang GT and the $33k Genesis V6? Even though the Genesis and Mustang compete on price, I suspect even they appeal to much different demographics.

As for my "bleating", Edmunds is consistently pro-import, it's just the way it is. From your posts on here, I'd wager it's a view you hold too. Fine.
Myself, I buy whatever suits the need at the time regardless of manufacturer. For the cars here, I like them all. If I was in the market for one of them, I don't know which I'd settle on.

[Jaeger]

What's the likelyhood of anyone cross shopping the $40k 370Z with the $34k Mustang GT and the $33k Genesis V6? Even though the Genesis and Mustang compete on price, I suspect even they appeal to much different demographics.

Maybe not - but does that mean that discussing their realtive merits is meaningless?  Maybe to you - but not to the editors of the magazines who wrote the stories or to their readers, or to those discussing same in this thread.

As for my "bleating", Edmunds is consistently pro-import, it's just the way it is. From your posts on here, I'd wager it's a view you hold too. Fine.

You'd lose that wager.  Had you actually read most of my posts here, you wouldn't even make that wager.

Myself, I buy whatever suits the need at the time regardless of manufacturer. For the cars here, I like them all. If I was in the market for one of them, I don't know which I'd settle on.

I do know which one I'd choose - but having a preference doesn't make me pro-import or anti-domestic.  I'd probably rank them Z, Mustang, Genesis.  I find it odd that you choose to perceive bias behind the choice of anyone - whether it be media or forumite - who expresses a preference for the Z over the Mustang.  Perhaps your search to unearth bias should start with a good long look in the mirror.  Just a suggestion.

Jaeger

[Sir Osis of Liver]

What's the likelyhood of anyone cross shopping the $40k 370Z with the $34k Mustang GT and the $33k Genesis V6? Even though the Genesis and Mustang compete on price, I suspect even they appeal to much different demographics.

Maybe not - but does that mean that discussing their realtive merits is meaningless?  Maybe to you - but not to the editors of the magazines who wrote the stories or to their readers, or to those discussing same in this thread.

As for my "bleating", Edmunds is consistently pro-import, it's just the way it is. From your posts on here, I'd wager it's a view you hold too. Fine.

You'd lose that wager.  Had you actually read most of my posts here, you wouldn't even make that wager.

Myself, I buy whatever suits the need at the time regardless of manufacturer. For the cars here, I like them all. If I was in the market for one of them, I don't know which I'd settle on.

I do know which one I'd choose - but having a preference doesn't make me pro-import or anti-domestic.  I'd probably rank them Z, Mustang, Genesis.  I find it odd that you choose to perceive bias behind the choice of anyone - whether it be media or forumite - who expresses a preference for the Z over the Mustang.  Perhaps your search to unearth bias should start with a good long look in the mirror.  Just a suggestion.

Jaeger

Perhaps you could refresh my memory. When was the last time you had anything positive to say about a domestic? I could well be mistaken.

[Jaeger]

What's the likelyhood of anyone cross shopping the $40k 370Z with the $34k Mustang GT and the $33k Genesis V6? Even though the Genesis and Mustang compete on price, I suspect even they appeal to much different demographics.

Maybe not - but does that mean that discussing their realtive merits is meaningless?  Maybe to you - but not to the editors of the magazines who wrote the stories or to their readers, or to those discussing same in this thread.

As for my "bleating", Edmunds is consistently pro-import, it's just the way it is. From your posts on here, I'd wager it's a view you hold too. Fine.

You'd lose that wager.  Had you actually read most of my posts here, you wouldn't even make that wager.

Myself, I buy whatever suits the need at the time regardless of manufacturer. For the cars here, I like them all. If I was in the market for one of them, I don't know which I'd settle on.

I do know which one I'd choose - but having a preference doesn't make me pro-import or anti-domestic.  I'd probably rank them Z, Mustang, Genesis.  I find it odd that you choose to perceive bias behind the choice of anyone - whether it be media or forumite - who expresses a preference for the Z over the Mustang.  Perhaps your search to unearth bias should start with a good long look in the mirror.  Just a suggestion.

Jaeger

Perhaps you could refresh my memory. When was the last time you had anything positive to say about a domestic? I could well be mistaken.

Not taking the bait - sorry.  If you want to discuss cars, fine.  If not - that's your choice - but mine is to pass. 

Jaeger

[Erik]

I guess I don't get what Edmunds comments have to do with this discussion.  This is about the MT test, which the Mustang won.

All of the comments you quote are performance related. Motor Trend conceded that the 370Z was the better performer, but they preferred the Mustang overall. A fair decision for them. They couldn't deal with some of the issues they felt the 370Z had (2 seats, coarse engine, etc.) and felt the Mustang was the better all around, if slightly less performance oriented, choice for them. Edmunds felt differently. So be it.
My view is that they are all great cars and that any of them would be a great choice, depending on ones preferences.
Erik

[Jaeger]

I guess I don't get what Edmunds comments have to do with this discussion.  This is about the MT test, which the Mustang won.

All of the comments you quote are performance related. Motor Trend conceded that the 370Z was the better performer, but they preferred the Mustang overall. A fair decision for them. They couldn't deal with some of the issues they felt the 370Z had (2 seats, coarse engine, etc.) and felt the Mustang was the better all around, if slightly less performance oriented, choice for them. Edmunds felt differently. So be it.
My view is that they are all great cars and that any of them would be a great choice, depending on ones preferences.
Erik

I think you just identified precisely what the Edmunds test  has to do with this discussion - same contestants - different conclusion - different opinions based on different priorities.  No doubt some would like it if we all just stood up and gave a round of applaus to the Mustang with nary a dissenting voice.  But given that this is a car discussion forum, people will tend to discuss things like different opinions.

Tell me Erik - if someone started a thread pointing out that MT compared the Accord, Altima and Mazda 6 - and picked the Accord, would you find it so pointedly objectionable for someone ot point out that CD just compared the Accod and Mazda - and picked the Mazda?

Jaeger

[rrocket]

.

Re: the 370Z 

Car and Driver:  "The best sports car on the planet for the money?  Damn right!"


What's the likelyhood of anyone cross shopping the $40k 370Z with the $34k Mustang GT and the $33k Genesis V6? Even though the Genesis and Mustang compete on price, I suspect even they appeal to much different demographics.

As for my "bleating", Edmunds is consistently pro-import, it's just the way it is. From your posts on here, I'd wager it's a view you hold too. Fine.
Myself, I buy whatever suits the need at the time regardless of manufacturer. For the cars here, I like them all. If I was in the market for one of them, I don't know which I'd settle on.

The pricing I saw was $37K for the Mustang GT.  That was base price.

[Mitlov]

Jaeger,

Your Accord/Altima/Mazda6 comparison is fundamentally flawed because those cars are all the same genre.  The compact, two-seat 370Z is a fundamentally different genre from the roomier, four-seat Mustang and Genesis.  Comparisons between the 370Z and Mustang are pointless because it consists of the reviewer picking his favorite genre, not the reviewer picking his favorite within a genre.  Of course the 370Z's going to be faster and more agile (due to its vastly lighter weight and a chassis with fewer compromises to practicality) and the Mustang's going to be more practical.  That's a given.  I don't need a MT or Edmunds review to figure that one out.

I posted this thread, not because I gave a rip about what either Motor Trend or Edmunds had to say about Mustang versus 370Z, but because of the really interesting MT review of Mustang GT versus Genesis V6, two direct competitors.  The review contradicted a lot of assumptions I (and probably others here) had about which of those two would be the better four-seat sports coupe, and proved how far Ford has come with the latest Mustang refresh.

[Jaeger]

That the Mustang and the Z are different is a statement of the obvious.  That they are so fundamentaly different as to render irrelevant any comparison is simply incorrect - as at least two sources (MT and Edmunds) - and surely more to come, have well established.

Mitlov, I must assume that you are more than bright enough to understand that the point of the Altima / Mada / Accord example rests not upon the degree of similarity between the cars, but upon the discussion value of putting forward different conclusions, reached by different publications, respecting the same cars.  If I am wrong in my assumption - well - it wouldn't be the first time for that.

I understand full well that your main focus was upon the Mustang versus Genesis comparison - it's right there in the title of the thread. But Erik pointed out that the review held it to be the best of the three.  My responses have been in relation to that assertion: a) to point out the limitations of the MT review as (not being) a true three-way comparison and b) to point to a different conclusion reached in what was a direct comparsion between two of the same cars.  I really don't know how to put it any more clearly than that.

Jaeger

[Ice]

It sounds to me as if the era of the RWD sport coupes is still alive and well.  If three different cars from three different companies can inspire this much discussion I'd say the genre is still kicking.  Also to the credit of each of the companies involved it seems like the three cars under discussion so far offer something different and that none are clear outright winners on all categories.

[Jaeger]

It sounds to me as if the era of the RWD sport coupes is still alive and well.  If three different cars from three different companies can inspire this much discussion I'd say the genre is still kicking.  Also to the credit of each of the companies involved it seems like the three cars under discussion so far offer something different and that none are clear outright winners on all categories.

Excellent points all.

Jaeger

[Cord]

IMO, the very fact that the Mustang GT is even being compared, favourably by some, to a 370Z is astounding. Who could've thought such a comparison possible just a few years ago?

[Erik]

IMO, the very fact that the Mustang GT is even being compared, favourably by some, to a 370Z is astounding. Who could've thought such a comparison possible just a few years ago?

I agree totally!
Good on Nissan for producing a competitive car!

[Mitlov]

That the Mustang and the Z are different is a statement of the obvious.  That they are so fundamentaly different as to render irrelevant any comparison is simply incorrect - as at least two sources (MT and Edmunds) - and surely more to come, have well established.

I think that "they're completely different cars in different segments" is necessary to re-emphasize to say when you're making comparisons like this:

While a nice "rumbly sounding" V8 will be the trump card for the Pony car faithful, it isn't with me.  When cars occupy a given segment, and in the absence of forced induction, displacement should count for more than nice sounds.  All else being comparable - a 6 should outperform a 4 and an 8 should outperform a 6 [assuming, of course that the extra pair of cylinders result in greater total displacement].  Here, the Mustang's rumbly V8 doesn't hustle it along with any significant advantage over the smaller 6 in the Z.  For me, that's a wash where it counts. 

And I have to say...

Mitlov, I must assume that you are more than bright enough to understand that the point of the Altima / Mada / Accord example rests not upon the degree of similarity between the cars, but upon the discussion value of putting forward different conclusions, reached by different publications, respecting the same cars.  If I am wrong in my assumption - well - it wouldn't be the first time for that.

Jeebus.  Do you deliberately try to be offensive every time you disagree with someone?

[Jaeger]

I think that "they're completely different cars in different segments" is necessary to re-emphasize to say when you're making comparisons like this:

COMPLETELY different cars in different segments? Wow, can't imagine why both MT and Edmunds would bother with a comparison, then.  Must be quite a pointless undertaking.  Or maybe they, like me, don't see them as being quite so COMPLETELY different as you do.  Will you not allow that others might just have a different view on this issue?

Jeebus.  Do you deliberately try to be offensive every time you disagree with someone?

You find my assumption that you are bright offensive?    Or you perhaps you just want to avoid acknowledging that the Edmunds test was a perfectly valid discussion point?  You are hard to figure out sometimes.

Jaeger