Topic: Mixed martial arts competitions are...

[Mitlov]

The New York Times just ran an editorial basically calling mixed martial arts (i.e., Ultimate Fighting Championship, Pride, etc) a disgusting and barbaric bloodsport.  I thought that this sort of thinking had died out in the 1990s and that most people accepted that MMA was just as legitimate as boxing or judo.  The editorial, and many of the comments that follow, though, suggest that many still think of it as modern-day Roman gladiator matches. 

Your take?

http://theboard.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/01/22/the-disturbing-rise-of-ultimate-fighting/

Me, I have to agree with those who say (1) it's a legitimate sport that requires copious amounts of skill, strategy and athleticism, (2) statistically speaking, it's safer than either boxing or football, and (3) if you don't like it, don't watch it, but don't interfere with those of us who do.

[aquadorhj]

Well, since you asked.

I don't like it.  It's like watching school ground fight, only with burly, muscle bound men in cages instead of children on playground.

As "Martial Art", I don't think there's enough form/structure... like there are in boxing, judo or muay tai matches. 

But if we are strictly speaking of fighting, and NOT of "martial art", it's decent enough, and i don't dis-like it much.

Different stroke for different folks, as they say.  I'm a little bit traditionalist when it comes to martial art, and referring to Ultimate fighting championship as martial art competition just seem weird for me.

[The Mighty Duck]

I think it's kind of twisted that anyone considers watching intense physical violence legitimate entertainment, but OTOH, I don't really care.  I have no desire to watch or involve myself in it, but nor would I lead a charge to ban it.

If people want to watch it, fine.  If the government wants to ban it, well, that's fine too.

[vdk]

Really.. are we that boring as a society that we need to be entertained by watching 2 guys fight each other?

[johngenx]

There's a MMA gym that I've been thinking about joining.  I'm not interested in fighting, but their training regiment is brutal.  It's a tremendous combination of strength and endurance.

As for the sport itself, it's a little dull for those that don't follow it closely.  Due to the relative lack of prize money, it seems to lack elite caliber participants?  Those that are at the top of the sport lack finesse and charisma.  But, maybe it's not the lack of money.  Boxing was once worth watching and now it seems to be as well dominated by thugs.

The cage is so 1980's and should be revamped.  It too closely resembles a school yard.  I think the promoters and a small number of the athletes keep all the money and are satisfied with the take, as little seems to be reinvested in progressing the sport.

[HeliDriver]

I've never seen a UFC match and know nothing about it. From the little I've heard, though, I always kind of assumed it was more entertainment than real competition - kind of like WWF, but bloodier. I guess I was wrong. 

I don't know enough about it to vote, but I'm curious to learn more about the training regimen. 

[Mitlov]

I've never seen a UFC match and know nothing about it. From the little I've heard, though, I always kind of assumed it was more entertainment than real competition - kind of like WWF, but bloodier. I guess I was wrong. 

I don't know enough about it to vote, but I'm curious to learn more about the training regimen. 

Definitely not.  There's a ton of strategy involved.  But because there's so much emphasis on positioning and joint-locks, which are hard to see if you don't know what you're looking for, it really resembles an undisciplined brawl to the untrained eye.  Learn a bit about Brazilian Jiu-Jiutsu and you start to see the science and the strategy behind the good fighters.  A lot of the striking is not intended to knock the opponent out at all, but is actually for positioning purposes for setting up a good submission.

Here's a bout between Fedor Emelianenko and Antonio Rodorigo Nogueira, nicknamed "Minotauro" by some.  Fedor is, without question, the best competitor on the planet right now.  Minotauro is also a favorite of mine.  Watch carefully and the two guys are positioning the entire time; it's not a brawl.  Fedor sets up a good strike at the end, leaving Minotauro a bit bloody and stunned.  When the ref sees that Minotauro is stunned, he stops the fight and declares Fedor the winner.  This is pretty typical.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t4MrzCkuKq0

As for the apparent brutality, statistically speaking, MMA has fewer serious injuries than boxing or American football.  Yes, you're more likely to get a bloody nose, but you're far less likely to have a brain injury or spinal injury. 

[HeliDriver]

Okay, after reading your post and watching the youtube clip, I'm now ready to vote: Chalk up another one for A legitimate sport that I have no interest in. 

To my exceedingly untrained eye, it seemed pretty manic and undisciplined. I'm sure I'm wrong about the undisciplined part, but to me it doesn't have the simple appeal of Olympic wrestling or boxing. Not that I'm a fan of either of those sports, but I do enjoy watching them once every four years for a half-hour or so.

[Mitlov]

Here's a better fight to help people start to see the strategy and technique if they're not sure what to look for. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P3QzX1ZadJM

Hong Man Choi takes Fedor down, but Fedor quickly moves to a closed guard (legs wrapped around the opponent and ankles crossed in back).  He then transitions from the closed guard to a juji gatame (straight armbar).  I swear Hong taps, but the bout goes on.

They go back to standing.  It looks like Fedor gets a good chin shot in, momentarily stunning Hong, but Hong falls down into the top position and, Fedor once again moves to the closed guard.  Fedor then uses a couple of strikes to basically get Hong to change his arm positions (there's not any real power behind those strikes...there's simply no way to generate significant striking power from that position).  Hong apparently slips out of a grappling mindset and into a striking mindset, lifts up and throws several punches, opening himself up to another juji gatame by Fedor.  Hong taps, Fedor wins.

It's a very simple fight if you're already familiar with MMA, but if you're not, it helps you understand some of the basic strategy and technique.

After understanding that, feel free to watch this lengthy, dramatic bout between Fedor and Mirko "Crocop" Filipovic (the nickname comes from his previous career as a Croatian law enforcement officer):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iVl9nhPOo0U

[tenpenny]

I hate 'polls' that only give you extreme choices.

I'd prefer a choice like

A quasi-legitimate but pointless 'sport' that I have zero interest in.

Boxing is another one. 

[initial_D]

It is something I will be not pay to watch.

I don't see the glory in this type of blood sport, can be very entertaining, and does have a huge fan following.

[tpl]

if one is to have sports like this then lets have, for instance, fencing to first blood ( real wounds or even death)   Pistol duels at 20 paces and so on.   

[baumer00]

It's certainly a sport (extremely physical and tactical); I have no interest in watching it, but if two people want to beat the crap out of each other and others are willing to watch, I say why the hell not.

[safristi]

..I've determined it's SAFER  than Mixed MARITAL ARTS.............

[Mitlov]

I hate 'polls' that only give you extreme choices.

I'd prefer a choice like

A quasi-legitimate but pointless 'sport' that I have zero interest in.

Boxing is another one. 

That's darned near exactly the second choice.  Saying it's pointless adds some extra detail to your feelings, but it doesn't contradict what option 2 already said.

[Mitlov]

if one is to have sports like this then lets have, for instance, fencing to first blood ( real wounds or even death)   Pistol duels at 20 paces and so on.   

Interesting that you mention fencing.  As a former Olympic-style epee fencer, I have to say that Olympic-style fencing is probably equivalent to MMA in deadliness.  Only three MMA competitors have ever been killed in the roughly two-decade history of modern MMA.  All were "collapsed after the match" situations, not deaths during the bout, two of which were in unsanctioned competitions, and two of the deaths involved competitors with a pre-existing medical condition.  Only once in the history of MMA has someone with no pre-existing medical conditions died (from bleeding within the brain from a hit to the head, if I recall correctly). 

For comparison, since 1937, seven fencers have died, six from broken blades, five of those in epee.  The scenario is pretty much the same each time.  The tip of the blade snaps off as the blade is flexing while you're scored a point, and then the broken blade explosively re-straightens.  It all happens in a fraction of a second.  I've been cut in the arm (admittedly a very minor cut) by such an incident, and one of my coach's other students (before I started training) was run clean through in such an incident and nearly died before they reached the hospital.

For comparison, over 1,000 people have died playing American football since 1931.  Nowadays it's about 4 or 5 per year.
http://www.unc.edu/depts/nccsi/FootballInjuryData.htm

If the idea of re-creating a fight for a sporting event is inherently offensive to you, ANY sort of fencing should be equally offensive.  If you just think that MMA is too dangerous of a combat sport when compared to other sports, that's a widely-held but erroneous belief.

[dr_spock]

if one is to have sports like this then lets have, for instance, fencing to first blood ( real wounds or even death)   Pistol duels at 20 paces and so on.   

That could be a better way to settle some types of disputes instead of using lawyers. 

[Triple Bob]

I find it pretty boring TBH, too much wrestling involved for my tastes.

Mitlov do you have decent stats on MMA injuries?  I read an article a year or two ago saying that the vast majority of these competitions were either amateur or unlicensed for small amounts of prize money.  If that is the case I very much doubt the injuries are reported.

[Mitlov]

I find it pretty boring TBH, too much wrestling involved for my tastes.

Mitlov do you have decent stats on MMA injuries?  I read an article a year or two ago saying that the vast majority of these competitions were either amateur or unlicensed for small amounts of prize money.  If that is the case I very much doubt the injuries are reported.

The most frequently-cited article was done by researchers at Johns Hopkins University School of Medicine and was published in the Journal of Sports and Science Medicine after five years of research.  It focused on professional MMA fighters, but in my opinion amateur events with the same level of refereeing as, and equivalent rules to, a modern UFC or Pride tournament should have the same results.  The one local MMA event I watched (in Springfield, Oregon) did indeed fit that description.

Here's the complete article:
http://www.jssm.org/combat/1/18/v5combat-18.pdf

It concluded that knockout (i.e., brain injury) rates were lower than boxing and other injury rates were equivalent to boxing.

By the way, most competitors in ANY sport are amateur.  Most boxers are amateur.  There are dozens of boxers competing in local tournaments for every professional boxer.  There are dozens of bicycle racers competing in local tournaments for every professional bicycle racer.  The statement that "most MMA competitors are amateur" is just a truism about the nature of sports in general, and not a criticism of statistics on MMA safety, in my opinion.

If you've got a Fight Club-style underground no-rules fighting club, you're going to have some serious injuries and they're going to be under-reported.  But the same could be said of underground no-rules boxing clubs, wrestling clubs, etc.  No reason to ban a legitimate sport that has, at most, a minimal connections to those underground events.  In my experience with MMA competitors, the idea that these folks are a bunch of Fight Club wannabes breaking each other's jaws in grimy basements and then telling ER docs they fell down the stairs is inaccurate and offensive fiction.

[johngenx]

In my experience with MMA competitors, the idea that these folks are a bunch of Fight Club wannabes breaking each other's jaws in grimy basements and then telling ER docs they fell down the stairs is inaccurate and offensive fiction.

Just keep Kimbo Slice and his ilk out.  Those street vids of his are gross.