Topic: Fusion hybrid bests Camry, Altima, Malibu hybrids in C&D test

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Currently ...

48 mth lease for 2009 Fusion SE with auto, no options including Ford's smoke and mirrors "delivery allowance" .......... $423 per month

48 mth lease for 2009 Camry LE with auto, no options ........  $332.18 per month

More misinformation. Of course. (I guess it's easy to miss that little check box on Toyota's site that adds freight, etc.)

The truth:
Fusion's lease payment is $444 incl. tax
Camry's lease payment is $412 incl. tax

Yes, the Camry's lease payment is $32 per month cheaper.

More truth:
Fusion's 60 month finance payment is $422 including everything.
Camry's 60 month finance payment is $517 including everything.

Camry's finance payment is $95 per month more expensive.

Paying cash?
Fusion's price including tax is $20578.
Camry's price including tax is $28187.

Camry's price is $7,609 more expensive.

Glad you're back!

[Sival]

The American  carmakers don't want to lease much anymore, they much prefer to sell cars. That's why rebates more and more are in the form of discounts on price from the big 3 to incite people into purchasing the cars instead of leasing. Hey, Chrysler doesn't even lease anymore, if the dealers want to, they have to do it themselves with other financial institutions than Chrysler Financial.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

GMAC (GM and Chrysler) was balking at leases. Ford Credit isn't in as bad a shape because they didn't have the real estate exposure that GMAC did.

Canadians went in for leases to a much greater degree than Americans did. Absence of low lease rates would be more of a big deal here than to the south.

[Ex-airbalancer]

GMAC (GM and Chrysler) was balking at leases. Ford Credit isn't in as bad a shape because they didn't have the real estate exposure that GMAC did.

Canadians went in for leases to a much greater degree than Americans did. Absence of low lease rates would be more of a big deal here than to the south.

How do you know this?
I would though there was more leasing south of the border
Some of those lease payments on TV were pretty low
Does anyone have the #s on who leases more?

[Sir Osis of Liver]

GMAC (GM and Chrysler) was balking at leases. Ford Credit isn't in as bad a shape because they didn't have the real estate exposure that GMAC did.

Canadians went in for leases to a much greater degree than Americans did. Absence of low lease rates would be more of a big deal here than to the south.

How do you know this?
I would though there was more leasing south of the border
Some of those lease payments on TV were pretty low
Does anyone have the #s on who leases more?

I was suprised too. It was on a radio show one evening. Over half of Canadian sales were actually leased, while under half in the States. I can't remember the numbers.

IIRC the explanation given was that Canadian MSRPs were that much higher, that leases were about the only way the "typical" family could get into family sized vehicles.

I'll try to find the info.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Leasing has traditionally been much more popular in Canada than in the U.S., ranging from 38 per cent to over 50 per cent of the market, depending on the sales cycle. In the States, about 20 per cent of consumers lease their vehicles.

Winnipeg Free Press

Pretty close approximation of what I remembered.

[Ex-airbalancer]

I guess I was wrong again

[G35X]

“Fusion's lease payment is $444 incl. tax
Camry's lease payment is $412 incl. Tax” – Cord

Thank you for the information.  Very interesting.

To many Canadians leasing a car is like making a payment for apartment rent.  It’s their cash flow that’s concerns them most.  So, by combining the lease payment and gas payment they calculate the monthly cost of commuting.  The question is not the long-term economy such as we often discuss how soon we can recoup the hybrid premium by the saving made with lower consumption of gas.  Therefore, in the above case, if Fusion consumes less fuel in a given mileage a month it may look better especially when the gas price is high. (Although this is unlikely since the difference in fuel consumption betwee them is small and gas is still below $1/litre)

This argument can be applied to the comparison between a hybrid and a regular car.  Even if the monthly lease payment for a hybrid is higher if overall commuting cost comes to about the same, I think many people will choose a hybrid because of its greener image.

[ArticSteve]

“Fusion's lease payment is $444 incl. tax
Camry's lease payment is $412 incl. Tax” – Cord

Thank you for the information.  Very interesting.

To many Canadians leasing a car is like making a payment for apartment rent.  It’s their cash flow that’s concerns them most.  So, by combining the lease payment and gas payment they calculate the monthly cost of commuting.  The question is not the long-term economy such as we often discuss how soon we can recoup the hybrid premium by the saving made with lower consumption of gas.  Therefore, in the above case, if Fusion consumes less fuel in a given mileage a month it may look better especially when the gas price is high. (Although this is unlikely since the difference in fuel consumption betwee them is small and gas is still below $1/litre)

This argument can be applied to the comparison between a hybrid and a regular car.  Even if the monthly lease payment for a hybrid is higher if overall commuting cost comes to about the same, I think many people will choose a hybrid because of its greener image.

Thank you for the information.  Very interesting.

If it was correct

2009 Fusion SE 2.3 I4 in auto ......  LEASE: $423.00  per mth includes AC tax and Freight only
13.19% interest rate 48 mths

http://www.ford.ca/app/fo/index.do

2009 Camry LE 2.4 I4 in auto ...... LEASE:   $364.00  per mth includes AC tax and Freight only
3.9 % 48 mths.

http://www.toyota.ca

Ya, I boobed on the Freight and AC tax for the Fusion  , Ford includes it, but excludes sales tax.  Toyota bundles Freight, AC tax and all sales taxes together and since quoting sales tax is useless I omitted it and did not compensate for the additional Freight and AC tax.  There is also the fuel guzzler tax, but again that is province specific.

 More truth:
Fusion's 60 month finance payment is $422 including everything.
Camry's 60 month finance payment is $517 including everything.
 

Worthless number on the Ford without a link.  Why post "including everything" when all provinces have different tax rates. 

Camry 60 mth finance is ... $463.00   AC tax and Freight in  (no sales taxes) @ 3.9%

Paying cash?
Fusion's price including tax is $20578.
Camry's price including tax is $28187.

Again, without knowing what province and without knowing value of trades, which effects tax payable, please just stick to the retail price of the car.

Same Fusion as above .... $19,599.  AC tax and Freight in.  http://www.ford.ca/app/fo/index.do

Same Camry as above .... $26323.  AC tax and Freight in

Difference = $6724.00 in favour of Fusion.  This is not news and is a significant difference until it gets financed at a minimum of 8.5% and that brings us back to whatever we were arguing about  ; Ford's inability to finance their stuff coherently and consistently.  Essentially all vehicles are either leased or financed.  The odd guy like Ovr walks in and plunks down 80 large, but those dudes don't buy Fusions or Camrys.

[rrocket]

The odd guy like Ovr walks in and plunks down 80 large, but those dudes don't buy Fusions or Camrys.

He's a baller, eh??   

[Mitlov]

Essentially all vehicles are either leased or financed.  The odd guy like Ovr walks in and plunks down 80 large, but those dudes don't buy Fusions or Camrys.

When I bought my Legacy 2.5i, I traded in my Civic and wrote a check for the balance.  When my mother bought her Scion xD, she traded in an old Corolla and wrote a check for the balance.  She'll be excited to know that she's a "baller."

Actually, now that I think about it, no one in my immediate family has ever financed or leased a vehicle.  We've always paid cash, whether you're talking new or used, motorcycle or car.  And none of those cars have ever been luxury cars, unless you consider H6 Outbacks and Jetta 1.8Ts to be luxury cars.

Different people use different methods of buying cars.  Your argument that "only leases matter" is kind of silly. 

Plus, does anyone else think it's odd that you criticize Ford for using zero percent financing out of one side of your mouth while accusing them of having excessively high lease rates out of the other?  Either you care about maximizing the company's profits, or you care about making the cars affordable as possible to consumers.  It makes no sense to take one stance on financing and the opposite on leasing.

[Mitlov]

The odd guy like Ovr walks in and plunks down 80 large, but those dudes don't buy Fusions or Camrys.

He's a baller, eh??   

Remember?  He nearly got a 7-Series so he'd have room to make out with two supermodels at once in the back seat.

[rrocket]

Actually, now that I think about it, no one in my immediate family has ever financed or leased a vehicle. 

Different markets.  In Canada we lease/finance twice as much as in the USA...(IIRC)

Buyers paying cash are a minority.

[rrocket]

Your argument that "only leases matter" is kind of silly. 

Yes and no.  At times, leasing in Canada account for over 50% of car sales.  So leasing in Canada matters.  Alot.  This compares to approximately ~20% of US car being leases.

[ArticSteve]

Essentially all vehicles are either leased or financed.  The odd guy like Ovr walks in and plunks down 80 large, but those dudes don't buy Fusions or Camrys.

When I bought my Legacy 2.5i, I traded in my Civic and wrote a check for the balance.  When my mother bought her Scion xD, she traded in an old Corolla and wrote a check for the balance.  She'll be excited to know that she's a "baller."

Actually, now that I think about it, no one in my immediate family has ever financed or leased a vehicle.  We've always paid cash, whether you're talking new or used, motorcycle or car.  And none of those cars have ever been luxury cars, unless you consider H6 Outbacks and Jetta 1.8Ts to be luxury cars.

Different people use different methods of buying cars.  Your argument that "only leases matter" is kind of silly. 

Plus, does anyone else think it's odd that you criticize Ford for using zero percent financing out of one side of your mouth while accusing them of having excessively high lease rates out of the other?  Either you care about maximizing the company's profits, or you care about making the cars affordable as possible to consumers.  It makes no sense to take one stance on financing and the opposite on leasing.

Actually, now that I think about it, no one in my immediate family has ever financed or leased a vehicle.  We've always paid cash, whether you're talking new or used, motorcycle or car.  And none of those cars have ever been luxury cars, unless you consider H6 Outbacks and Jetta 1.8Ts to be luxury cars.

Ok, I can't tell you how pleased I am to know that your family is well above the average Canadian working class family and have the financial capability to buy new cars, motorcycles, and what have you with cash as far back as you can remember.  FYI Outbacks and turbo Jettas are well above the average car in Canada and with taxes run 35K.

Different people use different methods of buying cars.  Your argument that "only leases matter" is kind of silly.  

Don't recall I stated that "only leases matter" .  What I have said is that manufacturer/distributor FINANCING, which includes LEASING is just as critical as the product itself.  A company must be able to provide coherent and consistent financing.  In Canada Ford has failed to do this.  13% lease rates are an admission on Ford's part that the residual is in the crapper on that car.

 Plus, does anyone else think it's odd that you criticize Ford for using zero percent financing out of one side of your mouth while accusing them of having excessively high lease rates out of the other?  Either you care about maximizing the company's profits, or you care about making the cars affordable as possible to consumers.  It makes no sense to take one stance on financing and the opposite on leasing.

I have not seen evidence of 0% financing on the Fusion.  However, on Ford.ca, the 2009 F150 lease rate is .59% for 48 mths and the financing rate is 0% for 5 years.  That sounds great, but for a company that is asking for loan guarantees how long can it sustain losses like that.  To complicate matters, buyers come to expect 0% and won't buy the vehicle without it.  Resales value then tank.  It's nothing other than DESPERATION FINANCING as proven by GM and Chrysler it inevitably leads to insolvency.

In Canada, if a manufacturer doesn't have a viable financing unit they are OUT OF BUSINESS.

[Leviathan]

Edmunds reviews the Fusion Hybrid here and they seem pretty pleased with it:

Based on the reworked 2010 version of the Fusion, the Ford Fusion Hybrid is probably the best driving hybrid sedan on the market. This means the car asks its driver to make fewer (or at least smaller) sacrifices for its increased efficiency. The basic Fusion chassis is a fine setup, offering good road isolation while delivering confidence-inspiring handling in conditions that would have a Camry tripping over itself.

Not so impressed with the Prius or Camry hybrids by the looks of it:

Our beef with most hybrids is that they aren't particularly good cars. At least they're not when we apply the same standards we use for a conventionally powered car. Take the Prius. It's slow. It's loud. Its steering feels horribly disconnected and its brakes are bad. Judged by the standards of people who actually like to drive cars, the Prius is an epic failure.

The Toyota Camry Hybrid, which makes fewer sacrifices for efficiency and therefore returns less fuel economy than the Prius, is a better car in the general sense, yet the shortcomings of the Camry's soggy chassis calibration are only exacerbated by the hybrid treatment.

[Cord]

Plus, does anyone else think it's odd that you criticize Ford for using zero percent financing out of one side of your mouth while accusing them of having excessively high lease rates out of the other?  Either you care about maximizing the company's profits, or you care about making the cars affordable as possible to consumers.  It makes no sense to take one stance on financing and the opposite on leasing.

I have not seen evidence of 0% financing on the Fusion.  However, on Ford.ca, the 2009 F150 lease rate is .59% for 48 mths and the financing rate is 0% for 5 years.  That sounds great, but for a company that is asking for loan guarantees how long can it sustain losses like that.

At least he didn't try to argue your point Mitlov.

Difference = $6724.00 in favour of Fusion.  This is not news and is a significant difference until it gets financed at a minimum of 8.5%...

Certainly interesting logic there. $6724 lower price is made up for by a 4.6% lower interest rate? Not on this planet.

[whistler]

I'm just sceptical of Ford's all of a sudden leap in quality

Says the owner of a Hyundai?  Both companies have made dramatic improvements in the past ten years.

As for reliability, that's where Consumer Reports comes in.  The Fusion has been on the road for four years now and still has excellent reliability ratings.  Indeed, it's one of the most reliable family cars on the road, according to CR.

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/autos/0810/gallery.cr_most_reliable/index.html

Based on a new study, Consumer Reports says both Ford and GM have made “real progress” in reliability ratings, although Chrysler did not receive similar good news.

According to the analysis, which drew upon both consumer surveys and vehicle testing, Ford offers several cars that match the ratings of foreign rivals like Toyota and Honda. Ford, the report said, is “in front of the class.” GM made gains as well, although several of its vehicles continue to have reliability problems.

Some of the winners include the Ford Fusion, Mercury Milan, Lincoln MKZ, Cadillac DTS, Ford Taurus, Ford Taurus X and Mercury Sable. The Ford Taurus is being redesigned for 2010, and the Mercury Sable and Taurus X are being discontinued.

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2009/01/ford-and-gm-mak.html

Duh, Hyundai's quality improvement started way  before Ford's, (like 10yrs) their '92-'93 models were the beginning of reliability whereas Ford has had improvement since what? 2003-2004 maybe? Still had lousy reliability in the vans etc.. You can't even compare the two, what a joke!
The question of Hyundai's reliability is sooo old, typical of you to throw a shot at an owner, get with the times, man.

Huh?? Did you just say 92-93 Hyundai's and "reliability" in the same sentence? Even in the same POST??!?!

Hyundai's quality improvements didn't start until at LEAST the early 2000s... Some would argue that it wasn't until the current Sonata that things really seemed to have turned around (2005 I think??). Find me any early 1990s Hyundai on the road today and try to tell me its held up well compared to a Japanese or even American car from the same year.

Fords in the early 90s had some bad cars and some good cars, reliability wise.

[TopGun]

Here are a few excerpts from my March '09 Motor Trendy mag where they test the Fusion hybrid:

• Ford did not license its hybrid tech from Toyota.  The hardware is entirely Dearborn-bred; Ford and Toyota have simply agreed not to step on each other's patent toes.
• and...
• ...where the two cars (Fusion and Camry hyrids) most significantly differ is in their handling and ride characteristics, where the Ford is appreciably more involving than the Toyota.

Oh yes...I posted a picture to prove I actually have the magazine...

Oh now what's that on the cover...Chevy beats Honda, Mazda, Mini, Subaru...hmm...gotta see what that's all about...