Topic: Fusion hybrid bests Camry, Altima, Malibu hybrids in C&D test

[Wolverine]

I'm just sceptical of Ford's all of a sudden leap in quality ie: a company know for being brutal on their part suppliers for producing the cheapest parts possible...no matter how good they look and feel now, how are they going to look and feel after 30k, 80k or 100k on the road? I'll believe it when I see longevity.

New sheriff in town, eheheheh.

My uncle had a 97 Tuarus and I found the interior very well built, won't say it had top quality materials, but everything was well laid and had a nice look. He sold it last year and the interior still looked very good...

[Mitlov]

What I want to know is,

How in heck do these hybrids keep the weight under 3800 lbs?

What with normal semi-luxury small sedans weighing 4000 lbs these days, how do these hybrids with huge battery packs and extra electric motors and just as contemporary chassis keep under 4000 lbs is a engineering fabulous-ness.

...oh, i only slept 3 hours, so if i don't make sense, please excuse.

The 328i weighs 3340 lbs.  The IS250 weighs 3455 lbs.  Even the 2008 CTS--biggest in the entry-level RWD sport-sedan class--weighs 3874 lbs.  You should go sleep some more

[Honda Owner]

I'd say GM has more pages of advertising than Toyota, Nissan, and Ford combined.

GM is the largest single advertiser in North America.

[Dante]

I'm glad C&D went beyond the "status quo" and gave Ford the credit it deserves with the new Fusion Hybrid. I think that Toyonda unconditional followers will have to accept more of these wins in the future, especially from Ford.
Changing the mass perception takes time, but for car enthusiasts, unless completely brain washed, it will become obvious much sooner that some Ford and even GM VEHICLES (not lease rates, rating, resale, dealer customer service, history, etc) are now competitive and even better from some perspectives.

[Dante]

I'm just sceptical of Ford's all of a sudden leap in quality

Says the owner of a Hyundai?  Both companies have made dramatic improvements in the past ten years.

As for reliability, that's where Consumer Reports comes in.  The Fusion has been on the road for four years now and still has excellent reliability ratings.  Indeed, it's one of the most reliable family cars on the road, according to CR.

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/autos/0810/gallery.cr_most_reliable/index.html

Based on a new study, Consumer Reports says both Ford and GM have made “real progress” in reliability ratings, although Chrysler did not receive similar good news.

According to the analysis, which drew upon both consumer surveys and vehicle testing, Ford offers several cars that match the ratings of foreign rivals like Toyota and Honda. Ford, the report said, is “in front of the class.” GM made gains as well, although several of its vehicles continue to have reliability problems.

Some of the winners include the Ford Fusion, Mercury Milan, Lincoln MKZ, Cadillac DTS, Ford Taurus, Ford Taurus X and Mercury Sable. The Ford Taurus is being redesigned for 2010, and the Mercury Sable and Taurus X are being discontinued.

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2009/01/ford-and-gm-mak.html

Duh, Hyundai's quality improvement started way  before Ford's, (like 10yrs) their '92-'93 models were the beginning of reliability whereas Ford has had improvement since what? 2003-2004 maybe? Still had lousy reliability in the vans etc.. You can't even compare the two, what a joke!

My buddy's 2001 Santa Fe, you know the butt-ugly one, would indicate otherwise. The interior of that car is so crappy. Not to mention that the drivetrain is so ... well ... unpleasant - rough, noisy, lazy (2.7L V6).
He maintained the car, but not much you could do about some things.

Now, some of Hyundai's recent cars, 2006+, like Sonata, Santa Fe 3.3L, Veracruz, Genesis are a different story, but it's a recent one.

[Dante]

I'm glad C&D went beyond the "status quo" and gave Ford the credit it deserves with the new Fusion Hybrid. I think that Toyonda unconditional followers will have to accept more of these wins in the future, especially from Ford.
Changing the mass perception takes time, but for car enthusiasts, unless completely brain washed, it will become obvious much sooner that some Ford and even GM VEHICLES (not lease rates, rating, resale, dealer customer service, history, etc) are now competitive and even better from some perspectives.

I still don't see anything I said in my first post that was not true or off the deep end, many folks here know about Ford's issue with their parts suppliers. We even had someone who worked for Ford on the forum talk about it.  

Sorry Las, my post was not in response to any of your posts.

[Wolverine]

I'm just sceptical of Ford's all of a sudden leap in quality

Says the owner of a Hyundai?  Both companies have made dramatic improvements in the past ten years.

As for reliability, that's where Consumer Reports comes in.  The Fusion has been on the road for four years now and still has excellent reliability ratings.  Indeed, it's one of the most reliable family cars on the road, according to CR.

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/autos/0810/gallery.cr_most_reliable/index.html

Based on a new study, Consumer Reports says both Ford and GM have made “real progress” in reliability ratings, although Chrysler did not receive similar good news.

According to the analysis, which drew upon both consumer surveys and vehicle testing, Ford offers several cars that match the ratings of foreign rivals like Toyota and Honda. Ford, the report said, is “in front of the class.” GM made gains as well, although several of its vehicles continue to have reliability problems.

Some of the winners include the Ford Fusion, Mercury Milan, Lincoln MKZ, Cadillac DTS, Ford Taurus, Ford Taurus X and Mercury Sable. The Ford Taurus is being redesigned for 2010, and the Mercury Sable and Taurus X are being discontinued.

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2009/01/ford-and-gm-mak.html

Duh, Hyundai's quality improvement started way  before Ford's, (like 10yrs) their '92-'93 models were the beginning of reliability whereas Ford has had improvement since what? 2003-2004 maybe? Still had lousy reliability in the vans etc.. You can't even compare the two, what a joke!

My buddy's 2001 Santa Fe, you know the butt-ugly one, would indicate otherwise. The interior of that car is so crappy. Not to mention that the drivetrain is so ... well ... unpleasant - rough, noisy, lazy (2.7L V6).
He maintained the car, but not much you could do about some things.

Now, some of Hyundai's recent cars, 2006+, like Sonata, Santa Fe 3.3L, Veracruz, Genesis are a different story, but it's a recent one.

Read again. I said '02-'03, "My buddy's 2001 blah blah blah..." You'll aways find a problematic car if you look long enough.

Las, read again, you said 92-93.

Well, here in Brazil Ford has achieved good realiability awards for some time, at the top with Toyota and Honda. The 2001 Ford Focus is considered one of the most reliable cars in the market since it was introduced and the new one looks even better.

[Dante]

I'm just sceptical of Ford's all of a sudden leap in quality

Says the owner of a Hyundai?  Both companies have made dramatic improvements in the past ten years.

As for reliability, that's where Consumer Reports comes in.  The Fusion has been on the road for four years now and still has excellent reliability ratings.  Indeed, it's one of the most reliable family cars on the road, according to CR.

http://money.cnn.com/galleries/2008/autos/0810/gallery.cr_most_reliable/index.html

Based on a new study, Consumer Reports says both Ford and GM have made “real progress” in reliability ratings, although Chrysler did not receive similar good news.

According to the analysis, which drew upon both consumer surveys and vehicle testing, Ford offers several cars that match the ratings of foreign rivals like Toyota and Honda. Ford, the report said, is “in front of the class.” GM made gains as well, although several of its vehicles continue to have reliability problems.

Some of the winners include the Ford Fusion, Mercury Milan, Lincoln MKZ, Cadillac DTS, Ford Taurus, Ford Taurus X and Mercury Sable. The Ford Taurus is being redesigned for 2010, and the Mercury Sable and Taurus X are being discontinued.

http://blogs.cars.com/kickingtires/2009/01/ford-and-gm-mak.html

Duh, Hyundai's quality improvement started way  before Ford's, (like 10yrs) their '92-'93 models were the beginning of reliability whereas Ford has had improvement since what? 2003-2004 maybe? Still had lousy reliability in the vans etc.. You can't even compare the two, what a joke!

My buddy's 2001 Santa Fe, you know the butt-ugly one, would indicate otherwise. The interior of that car is so crappy. Not to mention that the drivetrain is so ... well ... unpleasant - rough, noisy, lazy (2.7L V6).
He maintained the car, but not much you could do about some things.

Now, some of Hyundai's recent cars, 2006+, like Sonata, Santa Fe 3.3L, Veracruz, Genesis are a different story, but it's a recent one.

Read again. I said '02-'03, "My buddy's 2001 blah blah blah..." You'll aways find a problematic car if you look long enough.

I did read your post the first time. You said that Hyundai's quality started to improve 10 years ago which means 1999. I was just saying that in 2001, they were still making not so good cars.
The example I gave is to illustrate my argument. There is nothing wrong in particular with my buddy's car, it's still running and he put some significant amount of kilometers on it, it's just its overall quality that it's nothing to write home about.

I believe that the real change in Hyundai's quest to build high quality vehicles started to show the first results in 2006 or so, with Sonata being the first one to show that trend. Before the new Sonata came out, I don't think the Hyundai’ were very well regarded. Hyundai has been consistent over the past 3 years and making significant progress and I think most of the people recognize that.
However, this is just one year or so ahead of the time when Ford and GM started to improve. One of the problems is that the domestics were/are moving much slower and this is why Hyundai is in much better position today.

[Honda Owner]

Toyonda unconditional followers will have to accept more of these wins in the future, especially from Ford.

I can accept any "win" a car magazine would give any Ford or GM product. I base my purchase decisions on my previous experience with a product.

[toolatecrew]

Very good news. I tought the Fusion was well assembled and a decent car when I have rented them. The new restyle may appeal to a market that the Camary doesn't grab too. However I do agree that all is for nuaght if the $ part doesn't add up.

Regardless of what C andD says the Fusion does not have the following that the Camary does. Ford does not have the reputaion for quality and fuel efficiency that Toyota does (whther its true or not is not the debate here we are talking PERCEPTION which is the same as relaity for most buyers).

I think that least rates are key for many people becuase there is still a lot of concern (justified or not) over the long term costs of hybrid components out of warranty. Many people looking at these will say "I'm afraidf of spending a zillion dollars for a new batter pack so I want to return it before that happens).

If the Ford needs to put itself on an even playing feild (and frankley have at least some price advantage) becuase based on perception most will not get a fusion if its more expensive especially if they have to buy it.

[MKII]

Ford is not going to compete production unit wise, Ford is only going to build 25,000 Fusion and Milan Hybrids.
Leasing rates etc will not be consumers biggest concern, just being able to buy one will be the problem.
I am speaking of the USA market, not Canada. I have no idea how many Ford will allocate for the Canadian market, but I think it safe to assume very few.

At the moment 2010 Fusion/Milan Hybrid sedans can claim to be best in class as far as EPA ratings, which is the main selling point or reason for a consumer shopping for a hybrid yes, a friend of the environment.

Its good that hybrid consumers have a valid choice for a nice looking, well equipped family-size hybrid sedan besides the fav Camry, but the Fusion as I said is not in the game to out sell the Camry.

[Dante]

Toyonda unconditional followers will have to accept more of these wins in the future, especially from Ford.

I can accept any "win" a car magazine would give any Ford or GM product. I base my purchase decisions on my previous experience with a product.

I think it's the brand more than the product itself (what is your previous experience with a product you never bought?). This is a very common approach and this is what drives Toyonda' success: the perception of the brand and not always the product itself.

However, when it comes to discussing and comparing cars on a car forum the "market perception" should take the backseat and the focus should really be on the actual cars.

[Honda Owner]

I think it's the brand more than the product itself

Not in my case. I have had excellent success with the three Honda cars I own. If someone could reasonably demonstrate to me I would get a better combination of value, diving dynamics, utility, fuel efficiency and resale with another brand, I would happily change.

But so far, nobody has.

[rrocket]

I disagree with most everything Steve has said...except for the bit on price.  These cars (Ford and Toyota) appear to be so close in most regards that it more than likely WILL come down to price.....

[Cord]

Christ, a year (or so) away and it's the same old BS. 

 It's not accurate to say that the Fusion "bests" the other cars in C&D's little test? They ranked the cars from 1st to 4th, FFS. The writer just wasn't "enthiusiastic" enough in his comments about the Fusion? Let's see,

Ford hits one over the fence and into the ionosphere.

. Yes, I guess it's not quite clear what they thought of the car.

Regarding the silly comments that the Fusion Hybrid won't sell because it likely won't match the Toyota's low(er) APR, Pffft. First of all, the car's Cdn pricing hasn't even been released yet, let alone the finance programs. And second, anyone that thinks a Fusion Hybrid is going to languish on dealer lots is deluded. Just like the Escape Hybrid, it is likely that dealers won't be able to meet the demand. That situation rarely leads to discounted interest rates.

Regarding the related disinformation that Ford doesn't offer competitive finance or lease programs (I believe the 4 cyl Fusion was mentioned), Ford currently offers Delivery Allowances of $4500 on the Fusion SE and $6500 on the Fusion SEL. The difference in finance charges on a $30,000 car at 4.9% vs. a bank's 7.9% over 60 months is only about $1800. And with many people these days buying cars with lines of credit at rates below 4%, a 4.9% finance rate doesn't look so great. I'm sure every one of these folks would prefer the cash discount rather than an interest rate they won't use anyway.

For the lurkers out there (or the regulars that should know better) the idea that Ford doesn't offer any finance or lease incentives is false. A quick look at the current rate sheet shows that Ford currently has 13 models offered with 0%/60 month financing, and 12 models with either 0% or 1.9% over 72 months. These rates are combineable with Delivery Allowances of $500-$4000. The few models that don't have subvented rates have Delivery Allowances of $3000-$8500.

Lease programs exist on a number of models with 48 month rates from .59% to 3.99% also combinable with the Delivery Allowances. I find it so humourous that the chattering auto classes used to cluck about how stupid leasing was and that the non-Detroit brands didn't need to lease their vehicles anyway. Now that Detroit makers have pulled back somewhat from leasing these same chatterers now seem to view leasing as a necessity for success.

[rrocket]

Yea...Ford did a great job on this new hybrid..and their 1st try too. Well done.

Curious to see if the $1100 USD difference turns into a $2500 CDN difference...as is the norm over here.....

[ArticSteve]

Christ, a year (or so) away and it's the same old BS. 

 It's not accurate to say that the Fusion "bests" the other cars in C&D's little test? They ranked the cars from 1st to 4th, FFS. The writer just wasn't "enthiusiastic" enough in his comments about the Fusion? Let's see,

Ford hits one over the fence and into the ionosphere.

. Yes, I guess it's not quite clear what they thought of the car.

Regarding the silly comments that the Fusion Hybrid won't sell because it likely won't match the Toyota's low(er) APR, Pffft. First of all, the car's Cdn pricing hasn't even been released yet, let alone the finance programs. And second, anyone that thinks a Fusion Hybrid is going to languish on dealer lots is deluded. Just like the Escape Hybrid, it is likely that dealers won't be able to meet the demand. That situation rarely leads to discounted interest rates.

Regarding the related disinformation that Ford doesn't offer competitive finance or lease programs (I believe the 4 cyl Fusion was mentioned), Ford currently offers Delivery Allowances of $4500 on the Fusion SE and $6500 on the Fusion SEL. The difference in finance charges on a $30,000 car at 4.9% vs. a bank's 7.9% over 60 months is only about $1800. And with many people these days buying cars with lines of credit at rates below 4%, a 4.9% finance rate doesn't look so great. I'm sure every one of these folks would prefer the cash discount rather than an interest rate they won't use anyway.

For the lurkers out there (or the regulars that should know better) the idea that Ford doesn't offer any finance or lease incentives is false. A quick look at the current rate sheet shows that Ford currently has 13 models offered with 0%/60 month financing, and 12 models with either 0% or 1.9% over 72 months. These rates are combineable with Delivery Allowances of $500-$4000. The few models that don't have subvented rates have Delivery Allowances of $3000-$8500.

Lease programs exist on a number of models with 48 month rates from .59% to 3.99% also combinable with the Delivery Allowances. I find it so humourous that the chattering auto classes used to cluck about how stupid leasing was and that the non-Detroit brands didn't need to lease their vehicles anyway. Now that Detroit makers have pulled back somewhat from leasing these same chatterers now seem to view leasing as a necessity for success.

Christ, a year (or so) away and it's the same old BS.

    


Currently ...

48 mth lease for 2009 Fusion SE with auto, no options including Ford's smoke and mirrors "delivery allowance" .......... $423 per month

48 mth lease for 2009 Camry LE with auto, no options ........  $332.18 per month

Fusion allows 100,000 km
Camry allows 96,000 km

The difference in finance charges on a $30,000 car at 4.9% vs. a bank's 7.9% over 60 months is only about $1800.

Royal, CIBC, Scotia, TD, all 8.5% , so let use what's normally available for ppl with the best credit scores.

And with many people these days buying cars with lines of credit at rates below 4%,



Those would be secured lines of credit (99% are tied to property) and are also not fixed term.  Very foolish to tie a car loan to one's house and few ppl have those lines or want to use them on cars when they can borrow Toyota money at 3.9% for 5 years. (09 Camry)

Very soon GM and Ford (Chrysler excluded because it's finished) will need to come to grips with all their money losing "discount" schemes.  If they could carry on like this without begging for taxpayer money then whatever they do with discounts would be their own business.

Example 2.

2009 FWD Taurus SEL, cloth and no options  $5000 off.  48 mth lease ... $651. @13.19%

2009 Camry LE V6, cloth and no options   $0 off    48mth lease ............ $417. @3.9%

2009 Avalon with leather                       $0 off     48mth lease     .......  $641. @5.9%

The bottom line is that Ford has lost the ability to run a functioning financing operation and they will not be able to compete without one regardless of how good their stuff is.




 

[tpl]

"And with many people these days buying cars with lines of credit at rates below 4%,

Those would be secured lines of credit (99% are tied to property) and are also not fixed term.  Very foolish to tie a car loan to one's house and few ppl have those lines or want to use them on cars when they can borrow Toyota money at 3.9% for 5 years. (09 Camry)
"
I think many people "have those lines"  as they were one of those things that money gurus suggested that people with equity in their houses arranged when the got/renewed a mortgage. The banks were pretty willing to do them as well a few years back as long as mortgage + LOC  <= 75% of house value.

I DO agree with you that they are not a suitable financial vehicle to use to finance depreciating assets like cars.

[Sival]

One thing about the comparison. Their tests on fuel economy had a singular flaw on their "loops", they checked fuel economy throught the trip computers. These units tend to be hit and miss, some are accurate, others either overestimate or underestimate the real fuel consumption. Luckily they've also included a table of all their results (see the introduction page for the small "download" section) and calculated fuel economy by hand. In 300 miles, the Fusion did 34 MPG, the Altima 32, the Camry 31 and the Malibu 29. However, if we suppose that those loops they did were part of those 300 miles and by calculating the fuel economy from the loops (which length total 270 miles), the facts become clear. The Fusion's and Altima's trip computers seem right on the money, however, the Camry's trip computer seems to be too optimistic by a whopping 10% and the Malibu's seem to underestimate FE by nearly 5% (something I've read too on certain reviews, it seems that GM hasn't adjusted their trip computer to take account of the hybrid system so that the car actually gets better than it is saying). If the Camry's trip computer's results had been true, the Camry would have tied the Fusion, not been third in the test with a mere 2 MPG in front of the mild hybrid Malibu.

BTW, for those who were trying to read into C&D's subjective descriptions of every vehicle's results, on the same page you can download the summary of the results for each vehicle in quantitative terms.

[Cord]

Currently ...

48 mth lease for 2009 Fusion SE with auto, no options including Ford's smoke and mirrors "delivery allowance" .......... $423 per month

48 mth lease for 2009 Camry LE with auto, no options ........  $332.18 per month

More misinformation. Of course. (I guess it's easy to miss that little check box on Toyota's site that adds freight, etc.)

The truth:
Fusion's lease payment is $444 incl. tax
Camry's lease payment is $412 incl. tax

Yes, the Camry's lease payment is $32 per month cheaper.

More truth:
Fusion's 60 month finance payment is $422 including everything.
Camry's 60 month finance payment is $517 including everything.

Camry's finance payment is $95 per month more expensive.

Paying cash?
Fusion's price including tax is $20578.
Camry's price including tax is $28187.

Camry's price is $7,609 more expensive.