Author Topic: New Allure/LaCrosse  (Read 10291 times)

vdk

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Re: New Allure/LaCrosse
« Reply #20 on: December 24, 2008, 01:04:37 am »
So GM has to come close to bankruptcy to make better cars?  ::)

Offline ArticSteve

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Re: New Allure/LaCrosse
« Reply #21 on: December 24, 2008, 01:11:48 am »
Not better, more profitable.  But good name plates wouldn't hurt.

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Re: New Allure/LaCrosse
« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2008, 07:07:41 am »
Well I'm not seeing the Malibu all over the place.  Camry, being in it's 3 year and more expensive, still out sells Malibu 2.5:1.  But that's beside the point.  :)

However, you do bring up a good point in that the Malibu name plate is an oldie and easily identified.

When you gotta name a car two different names for essentially the same market you know that you got a DUD.  And that/those cars have been MASSIVE duds.

In November in Canada, Malibu sales 1,074  Camry 1,313. Accord 1,207, Sonata 1,391

Greg B.

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Re: New Allure/LaCrosse
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2008, 10:47:15 am »
Well I'm not seeing the Malibu all over the place.  Camry, being in it's 3 year and more expensive, still out sells Malibu 2.5:1.  But that's beside the point.  :)

However, you do bring up a good point in that the Malibu name plate is an oldie and easily identified.

When you gotta name a car two different names for essentially the same market you know that you got a DUD.  And that/those cars have been MASSIVE duds.

In November in Canada, Malibu sales 1,074  Camry 1,313. Accord 1,207, Sonata 1,391

Shhh... don't confuse Stevie with any facts. It's bad enough he is trying to troll now using the names of vehicles as an excuse. Throw in some sales numbers that don't support his posts and he might spin out...  :o

Offline sirAQUAMAN64

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Re: New Allure/LaCrosse
« Reply #24 on: December 24, 2008, 10:53:31 am »
This car makes sense as a Buick.

Why would you call it a Cadillac? Cadillac has been crafting a more edgy styling theme with higher performance models (RWD or AWD) with each new introduction. It simply wouldn't fit.

And Chevrolet has the mass-market Malibu and the fleet-oriented/value Impala. People are not used to spending $35-42 on a Chevrolet sedan IMO. They could, but even Toyota doesn't sell a boatload of Avalons priced at that - Lucerne sells better in the US and many times over more in Canada.

Buick is a slight premium (accessible luxury) comfort-oriented brand to my eyes - and that's what it is. And if GM can make money positioning it at a premium (like Enclave which has been successful) then good for them. It'll offer a fuel efficient 4, reasonably powerful 6, available AWD, along with decent quality roomy (I hope) interior, sharper handling coupled with a still comfortable ride, and big-ass trunk that can hold some golf clubs. The new Allure (to me the name fits if the product actually is) appears to be a competitive Buick sedan doing what Buicks were intended to do. Finally, at long last.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2008, 11:11:56 am by sirAQUAMAN64 »
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Mitlov

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Re: New Allure/LaCrosse
« Reply #25 on: December 24, 2008, 11:33:32 am »
Thank you for some real numbers, AirBalancer.

I think a three-brand structure is perfectly possible.  Chevy for the mass-market.  Buick for the upscale-but-not-luxury (Acura, Volvo).  Cadillac as the RWD full-on luxury brand.

Sure, some companies like Honda do it in two brands instead of three.  But remember that Toyota uses a three-brand scheme in the United States (Scion, Toyota, Lexus), whereas some other competing manufacturers manage to target youth and the mass-market with one single brand.  The difference between two brands and three is really not that huge (and either is worlds better than the eight GM uses).

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Re: New Allure/LaCrosse
« Reply #26 on: December 24, 2008, 11:44:13 am »
The number are from Sir A post for Nov

Offline toolatecrew

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Re: New Allure/LaCrosse
« Reply #27 on: December 24, 2008, 11:46:37 am »
Well I'm not seeing the Malibu all over the place.  Camry, being in it's 3 year and more expensive, still out sells Malibu 2.5:1.  But that's beside the point.  :)

However, you do bring up a good point in that the Malibu name plate is an oldie and easily identified.

When you gotta name a car two different names for essentially the same market you know that you got a DUD.  And that/those cars have been MASSIVE duds.

In November in Canada, Malibu sales 1,074  Camry 1,313. Accord 1,207, Sonata 1,391

Breakdown of fleet sales?

Allures are huge in rental fleets. I've had one many many times over the last year as a rental.

Not saying Malibu is unpopular but sales numbers don't necisarrily tell the story of if a vehicle is actually popular with the buying public.

As for Buick even GM admits they have too many brands and models. Why do people continue to feel the need to defend the number of GM brands when GM themselves admit its an issue?

Quote
We have proliferated our brands and dealer network to the point where we lost adequate focus on our core U.S. market.

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE4B738W20081208



Mitlov

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Re: New Allure/LaCrosse
« Reply #28 on: December 24, 2008, 11:55:42 am »
Breakdown of fleet sales?

Allures are huge in rental fleets. I've had one many many times over the last year as a rental.

Not saying Malibu is unpopular but sales numbers don't necisarrily tell the story of if a vehicle is actually popular with the buying public.

The Malibus I've seen--and the new Malibu is very common around here--are privately owned, as far as I can tell.

Quote
As for Buick even GM admits they have too many brands and models. Why do people continue to feel the need to defend the number of GM brands when GM themselves admit its an issue?

Quote
We have proliferated our brands and dealer network to the point where we lost adequate focus on our core U.S. market.

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE4B738W20081208

I agree that eight is far, far too many.  But I don't think three is too many (and neither does Toyota USA, as I said).  Big difference.

I personally wish that they'd keep Saab as their upscale-but-not-luxury brand, but Buick makes more sense.  Better reputation (as Barrie pointed out, known as the poor-man's Buick, a step up from a Chevy but down from a Caddy.  Also, they have a good reliability reputation, unlike Saab), better dealer network, and importing European cars doesn't make as much economic sense as building them in North America right now.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2008, 12:06:51 pm by Mitlov »

Offline toolatecrew

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Re: New Allure/LaCrosse
« Reply #29 on: December 24, 2008, 12:20:37 pm »
Breakdown of fleet sales?

Allures are huge in rental fleets. I've had one many many times over the last year as a rental.

Not saying Malibu is unpopular but sales numbers don't necisarrily tell the story of if a vehicle is actually popular with the buying public.

The Malibus I've seen--and the new Malibu is very common around here--are privately owned, as far as I can tell.

Quote
As for Buick even GM admits they have too many brands and models. Why do people continue to feel the need to defend the number of GM brands when GM themselves admit its an issue?

Quote
We have proliferated our brands and dealer network to the point where we lost adequate focus on our core U.S. market.

http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSTRE4B738W20081208

I agree that eight is far, far too many.  But I don't think three is too many (and neither does Toyota USA, as I said).  Big difference.

I personally wish that they'd keep Saab as their upscale-but-not-luxury brand, but Buick makes more sense.  Better reputation (as Barrie pointed out, known as the poor-man's Buick, a step up from a Chevy but down from a Caddy.  Also, they have a good reliability reputation, unlike Saab), better dealer network, and importing European cars doesn't make as much economic sense as building them in North America right now.

Sorry but while agree that 3 brands may more I've yet to see a compelling argument that Buick should be one of them.

Buick has the lowest sales of all GM other than Saab by a condiserable margin. yes lower than Cadiallac. Their market demographic is old (even the Enclave hasn't lowered it that much)

Lets accept that Chev and Cadlillac stay. Lets hear an argument that Buick should be the third? If you are going to pick a 3rd brand why bick one that has the lowest sales and who's brand image appeals to the narrowest and smallest market segment?

Offline Ex-airbalancer

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Re: New Allure/LaCrosse
« Reply #30 on: December 24, 2008, 12:28:32 pm »
Would be better if they called La Crosse a Wanker ??? ;D

Online Allen

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Re: New Allure/LaCrosse
« Reply #31 on: December 24, 2008, 02:16:32 pm »
It'll offer a fuel efficient 4,

A 4 banger in a Buick, just seems wrong (especially an American 4 banger)

Mitlov

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Re: New Allure/LaCrosse
« Reply #32 on: December 24, 2008, 04:34:25 pm »
Sorry but while agree that 3 brands may more I've yet to see a compelling argument that Buick should be one of them.

Buick has the lowest sales of all GM other than Saab by a condiserable margin. yes lower than Cadiallac. Their market demographic is old (even the Enclave hasn't lowered it that much)

Lets accept that Chev and Cadlillac stay. Lets hear an argument that Buick should be the third? If you are going to pick a 3rd brand why bick one that has the lowest sales and who's brand image appeals to the narrowest and smallest market segment?

Glad to offer an argument, not sure if you'll find it compelling or not.

We agree that Chevy and Cadillac are two anchors.  Chevy is for mass-market and trucks, Cadillac is specialized RWD platforms meant to compete with Merc and BMW. 

Thing is, I see a gap between the two brands.  Particularly with hard times, a lot of people who used to be shopping for a full-on luxury car are now looking for premium-but-not-luxury.  And the CTS and the like may be too expensive (it's hard to find a typically-equipped CTS for under $40k), while a fully-loaded Malibu just doesn't cut it.  So I see a valid possibility for a middle brand.

If you agree that there's room for a brand between Chevy and Caddy, I think Buick is the most logical choice.  Pontiac is pointless IMO.  It's neither cheaper nor more premium than Chevy--a direct competitor.  Allegedly it's the driving enthusiast brand of GM, but I find that pure marketing BS.  The Corvette's a Chevy, as is the Cobalt SS Turbo, as is the Camaro.  Make the Solstice and G8 Chevies (the Impala needed replacing anyway, no?) and Pontiac will disappear without anyone missing it.  GMC is the worst example of rebadging ever, so kill it too.  Sell Hummer to Mahindra or Tata.  Deep-six Saab, because as cool as I think they are, their two greatest legacies are torque steer and breakdowns.  So that leaves you with Buick and Saturn as the two possibilities for the middle-ground.  Buick had a century-long history of good cars tainted by the past decade or so of bland old-people cars.  Saturn sold cheap plastic cars for most of its life, and only tried to become more upscale last year, and I don't think the image-change has taken hold.  So I think Buick wins.

Plus, think of it this way.  Don't tell me what sort of person drives a Buick (old golfer etc etc).  Tell me what a Buick is.  It's mechanically-similar to a Chevy, but with more refinement, more sound deadening, and a better interior.  Shoot--isn't that PRECISELY what this third brand is supposed to be?  I think if their cars are more competitive (which the Enclave is and this Allure certainly appears to be), they can keep on with their already-ongoing Tiger Woods marketing campaign and the average age of buyers will drop from elderly to middle-age.  Throw in an upscale version of the Cruze--call it the Excelle perhaps to take a lead from Buick China--and I think they've got a really solid set of offerings.

Now, you can disagree with the three-brand approach entirely, and try to instead improve Chevy's top end and Cadillac's bottom end.  Problem is, a car like this one undoes all the work GM has done in the past five years to rejuvenate Cadillac's image.  Cadillac finally has some credibility as a BMW and Merc competitor, and I think if this LaCrosse became their top seller, that would evaporate, killing the prestige (and thus hurting the sales) of the CTS, CTS-V, next-gen STS, upcoming ATS, etc.  And I don't think this would sell very well next to the Malibu in a Chevy dealership.  When you've put this much work into dressing up a car, I think a different badge really helps complete the package.

So that's why I think there's room for Buick inside a trimmed-down GM.  Chevy does mass-market, performance cars, and trucks.  Buick does upscale cars on Chevy platforms to take on Acura and Volvo and the like.  Cadillac has unique platforms and competes with the Germans and Lexus in the full-on luxury market.  That's what I'd do with GM if I was running the company.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2008, 04:41:41 pm by Mitlov »

Mitlov

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Re: New Allure/LaCrosse
« Reply #33 on: December 24, 2008, 04:46:06 pm »
It'll offer a fuel efficient 4,

A 4 banger in a Buick, just seems wrong (especially an American 4 banger)

Some versions of the Ariel Atom and some version of the Lotus Elise and Exige use GM Ecotec four-cylinder engines.  The new Fisker Karma uses the 2.0L turbo from the Cobalt SS and Saturn Sky Redline to power its batteries.  I think your stereotype of "American 4 bangers" is no longer accurate.

And I think that the market is ready for a four-cylinder Buick, particularly if gas prices spike again.

Offline toolatecrew

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Re: New Allure/LaCrosse
« Reply #34 on: December 24, 2008, 05:37:01 pm »
Sorry but while agree that 3 brands may more I've yet to see a compelling argument that Buick should be one of them.

Buick has the lowest sales of all GM other than Saab by a condiserable margin. yes lower than Cadiallac. Their market demographic is old (even the Enclave hasn't lowered it that much)

Lets accept that Chev and Cadlillac stay. Lets hear an argument that Buick should be the third? If you are going to pick a 3rd brand why bick one that has the lowest sales and who's brand image appeals to the narrowest and smallest market segment?

Glad to offer an argument, not sure if you'll find it compelling or not.

We agree that Chevy and Cadillac are two anchors.  Chevy is for mass-market and trucks, Cadillac is specialized RWD platforms meant to compete with Merc and BMW. 

Thing is, I see a gap between the two brands.  Particularly with hard times, a lot of people who used to be shopping for a full-on luxury car are now looking for premium-but-not-luxury.  And the CTS and the like may be too expensive (it's hard to find a typically-equipped CTS for under $40k), while a fully-loaded Malibu just doesn't cut it.  So I see a valid possibility for a middle brand.

If you agree that there's room for a brand between Chevy and Caddy, I think Buick is the most logical choice.  Pontiac is pointless IMO.  It's neither cheaper nor more premium than Chevy--a direct competitor.  Allegedly it's the driving enthusiast brand of GM, but I find that pure marketing BS.  The Corvette's a Chevy, as is the Cobalt SS Turbo, as is the Camaro.  Make the Solstice and G8 Chevies (the Impala needed replacing anyway, no?) and Pontiac will disappear without anyone missing it.  GMC is the worst example of rebadging ever, so kill it too.  Sell Hummer to Mahindra or Tata.  Deep-six Saab, because as cool as I think they are, their two greatest legacies are torque steer and breakdowns.  So that leaves you with Buick and Saturn as the two possibilities for the middle-ground.  Buick had a century-long history of good cars tainted by the past decade or so of bland old-people cars.  Saturn sold cheap plastic cars for most of its life, and only tried to become more upscale last year, and I don't think the image-change has taken hold.  So I think Buick wins.

Plus, think of it this way.  Don't tell me what sort of person drives a Buick (old golfer etc etc).  Tell me what a Buick is.  It's mechanically-similar to a Chevy, but with more refinement, more sound deadening, and a better interior.  Shoot--isn't that PRECISELY what this third brand is supposed to be?  I think if their cars are more competitive (which the Enclave is and this Allure certainly appears to be), they can keep on with their already-ongoing Tiger Woods marketing campaign and the average age of buyers will drop from elderly to middle-age.  Throw in an upscale version of the Cruze--call it the Excelle perhaps to take a lead from Buick China--and I think they've got a really solid set of offerings.

Now, you can disagree with the three-brand approach entirely, and try to instead improve Chevy's top end and Cadillac's bottom end.  Problem is, a car like this one undoes all the work GM has done in the past five years to rejuvenate Cadillac's image.  Cadillac finally has some credibility as a BMW and Merc competitor, and I think if this LaCrosse became their top seller, that would evaporate, killing the prestige (and thus hurting the sales) of the CTS, CTS-V, next-gen STS, upcoming ATS, etc.  And I don't think this would sell very well next to the Malibu in a Chevy dealership.  When you've put this much work into dressing up a car, I think a different badge really helps complete the package.

So that's why I think there's room for Buick inside a trimmed-down GM.  Chevy does mass-market, performance cars, and trucks.  Buick does upscale cars on Chevy platforms to take on Acura and Volvo and the like.  Cadillac has unique platforms and competes with the Germans and Lexus in the full-on luxury market.  That's what I'd do with GM if I was running the company.

Well you certainly put thought into it but you have missed something critical that I said that you did not adress.

Buick is curently the lowest selling of allbrands other than Saab. While I agreed there might be room for 3 brands I never agreed that that brand should be positioned between Chev and Caddy. That market (which is currently served by buick) is small..so small that Buick is the lowest selling brand of all GM Brands outside of Saab.

Quote
Tell me what a Buick is.  It's mechanically-similar to a Chevy, but with more refinement, more sound deadening, and a better interior.  Shoot--isn't that PRECISELY what this third brand is supposed to be?

No not at all. Those are minor difference. Changing intorior bits, more sound deadening? Lexus does it..with ONE model. The ES All their other models are unique to the brand.

Persoanlly I think they only need two Brands. Chev and Caddy but if MUST have a 3rd brand it needs to offer something unique to justify the aditional overhead expenses. Its got to appeal to a market of a size that will justify its existance.

If the Allure is based on the same Epsilon II platform as the Impala then it would be very easy to have an Impala Luxury package Model with upgraded interior, more sound deadening. There really is NO need to for a separate brand different grille etc. Badge engineering is not the wave of the future.

Toyota doesn't do this with their 3 brands.

GM Trucks, SUV, non luxury cars Camaro Vette
Caddy- Unique luxury models and some "badge engineered lux models of truck SUV if that market continues. The Enclave starts at 40 K the least expensive Caddy SUV the SRX at 47 K. No reason Enclave couldn't be a Caddy at 40 K plus.

If you MUST have a 3rd brand they should probably recycle Saturn maybe renaming it as Opal or something. This would be for their Euro inspired products like the Astra. This would avoid closing down Saturn dealers (a huge cost) Buick doesn't have standalone dealers. Even with their issues Saturn still outsells the Buick nameplate currently. The market for Opel products is separate and distinct not just more sound deading etc. The models would be unique.

Buick only makes sense if that market niche between top of line Chev and Caddy is large enough to make it work. Its obvious that it isn't from the sales figures we see today.

Greg B.

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Re: New Allure/LaCrosse
« Reply #35 on: December 24, 2008, 06:27:02 pm »

No not at all. Those are minor difference. Changing intorior bits, more sound deadening? Lexus does it..with ONE model. The ES All their other models are unique to the brand.

That's an invalid comparison, given that Lexus is equivalent to Cadillac in the Toyota world. Besides, you'll never convince me that the big Lexus SUV isn't based on a Toyota. Just like Escalade.

Quote
If the Allure is based on the same Epsilon II platform as the Impala then it would be very easy to have an Impala Luxury package Model with upgraded interior, more sound deadening. There really is NO need to for a separate brand different grille etc. Badge engineering is not the wave of the future.

Toyota doesn't do this with their 3 brands.

Well, they do (see above) but that isn't really the issue here. The real issue is that it would be hard to sell a near-luxury Chevy just like Toyo finds it impossible to sell a luxury Camry.

Quote
If you MUST have a 3rd brand they should probably recycle Saturn maybe renaming it as Opal or something. This would be for their Euro inspired products like the Astra. This would avoid closing down Saturn dealers (a huge cost) Buick doesn't have standalone dealers. Even with their issues Saturn still outsells the Buick nameplate currently. The market for Opel products is separate and distinct not just more sound deading etc. The models would be unique.

You forget that most Buick dealers are paired with Pontiac and GMC which we already said are theoretically going away, so the dealer closing costs would actually be less with Saturn since they have fewer dealers. Is there enough market in N.A. for Euro-style Opel models? I dunno, but I doubt it. Saturn has been a disaster from the day it was born and I think it should die.

Ironically the GM brand that would have been best positioned to fill the gap would have been Olds.

Mitlov

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Re: New Allure/LaCrosse
« Reply #36 on: December 24, 2008, 06:57:14 pm »
toolatecrew--

Remember that Saturn got several of the "new, good" GM cars (Aura, Astra, second-generation Vue, Outlook), whereas Buick has only received one so far.  So their sales numbers for the past two years are not, in my opinion, a good proxy for the ultimate promise of the brand.  If we assume equal resources going to each, I think the Buick name and brand concept has better legs than the Saturn name (and its ever-changing brand concept).  If Buick got this new-generation Allure and got a premium-quality Cruze called the Excelle, I think they would crush Saturn in terms of sales.

It's also not true that Lexus only has one trussed-up Toyota.  They have four (ES on the Camry, RX on the Highlander, GX on the 4Runner, RX on the Land Cruiser), and will soon have the HS250h, which rumor has it is a trussed-up Prius.  Currently, Lexus is able to sell these cars under the same roof as the IS, GS, and LS, though I wonder if, in terms of long-term badge image, those tarted-up Toyotas are competitiveness (image-wise) of the GS and LS with the E-Class and S-Class.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2008, 06:59:07 pm by Mitlov »

Offline KRS

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Re: New Allure/LaCrosse
« Reply #37 on: December 24, 2008, 07:18:23 pm »

 As a general rule I don't agree with toolatecrew on many of his posts but I would have to agree that Buick is not the brand to place as the mid level brand any more. Buick's image is as the retiree brand and while I have little doubt that with smart brand management it may be repaired as GM has been able to do with Cadillac. Unfortunately GM does not have time but must make the best move for the facts as they stand today. Also I do not believe that offering a lower range car as a Cadillac such as a refined Cruze would be of benefit, as GM has never done this well (Think Cadillac Cimmaron) and when done improperly would undo years of rebuilding their image.
 
 I would suggest that GM should make the Buick brand the brand name to the Asian market's where it is from all reports well regarded (at least in China), with no Buick models offered in North America, Make Saturn the GM world division offering the best of GM's worldwide models to the North American market(Opel's, Holdens, Vauxhall's,even Saab if it continues in Europe, Leave Cadillac "as is" market range wise except removing the trucks, make Chevrolet the Value division with the Impala market at the high end of their offerings. Also I would sale all trucks and SUV's as GMC's and hype how the trucks are build by the truck specialists. If you need a mid range model the Pontiac brand despite the damage I believe a generation of Grand Am's and Sunfires has done is a far more respected brand then Buick in my perception. I only know 2 persons who have bought a new Buick in the last year and both are at least 70 years old. Pontiac sales would seem to show its image is far more viable
 
 I would place the Cadillac dealerships and import brands in the same dealerships and place Chevrolet by itself with GMC brand trucks and SUV's offered to all GM dealerships. No doubt though GM will almost certainly do something totally different  but I would think the Buick, Hummer and Saab the three divisions easiest to cut out of the market.
 
Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.<br />        H. L. Mencken<br />      (1880 - 1956)

Offline Thinking Out Loud

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Re: New Allure/LaCrosse
« Reply #38 on: December 24, 2008, 11:10:29 pm »
You'll get one vote from me on a:

- Chevrolet
- Opel
- Cadillac

set up. 

Tiger Woods, hippest of many sports atheletes, couldn't convince anyone not resident in mainland China that Buick was cool. 

What else is there?
Fortune favours the bold!

Offline ArticSteve

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Re: New Allure/LaCrosse
« Reply #39 on: December 25, 2008, 01:02:10 am »
Well I'm not seeing the Malibu all over the place.  Camry, being in it's 3 year and more expensive, still out sells Malibu 2.5:1.  But that's beside the point.  :)

However, you do bring up a good point in that the Malibu name plate is an oldie and easily identified.

When you gotta name a car two different names for essentially the same market you know that you got a DUD.  And that/those cars have been MASSIVE duds.

In November in Canada, Malibu sales 1,074  Camry 1,313. Accord 1,207, Sonata 1,391

In November in Canada, Malibu sales 1,074  Camry 1,313. Accord 1,207, Sonata 1,391

and to think I almost missed this idiot convention  :banghead:

Lets see, where does Mitlov live  :think:  USA  :) and in which country do sales determine survival ???   :bang:


Sales ending Novemeber/08 sales as posted by SIRA

Camry:  411342

Accord: 350441

Malibu:  160898

Sonota: 119764


That's called a BLOW OUT.

Lacrosse: 35422  That's just called .... PITIFUL

The more I look at these numbers the more I think that GM will go into some type of formal bankrupty.  Here is their segment buster (Malibu) that they supposedly put all their marbles into and it's still getting murdered by a 3 year old Toyota design and beat 2:1 by Honda.  ::)