Topic: Is BMW putting a V6 in the 2009 3 Series?

[HeliDriver]

Of course not, but here's the copy from BMW USA's website:

"The BMW 3 Series Sports Wagon. With a powerful V-6 and BMW's xDrive, intelligent all-wheel-drive system, expect a performance to make your forget it's a wagon. Until you have cargo. That's when split-folding rear seats add the defining utility to your drive."

http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Content/Vehicles/2009/3/328ixDriveSportsWagon/modelhighlights/default.aspx

Wow. That's an embarrassing mistake to make on your own website. 

I've emailed to let them know. It will be interesting to see how long it takes them to fix it.

[initial_D]

Hmm. Interesting.

My car has a V6.

[turbodiesel]

holy shxt... V6 in a BMW? what a blasphemy...  I hope the webmaster there correct the typo soon...

[vdk]

  good catch!


it's okay though.. most owners think the engine is a mighty V6 anyways..

[G35X]

Still no correction.  Maybe BMW U.S. knows something we do not know…  In order for BMW to compete against high-power V-6’s such as Nissan’s VQ it might have to switch to V-6, VR-6 or H-6.  I think the current BMW I-6’s bore is maxed out, thence the turbo charging of the 335i engine, whose fuel metering is optimistic or inaccurate causing the tail pipes to be covered with soot. 

[ovr50]

Still no correction.  Maybe BMW U.S. knows something we do not know…  In order for BMW to compete against high-power V-6’s such as Nissan’s VQ it might have to switch to V-6, VR-6 or H-6.  I think the current BMW I-6’s bore is maxed out, thence the turbo charging of the 335i engine, whose fuel metering is optimistic or inaccurate causing the tail pipes to be covered with soot. 

Bold is mine on G35X quote. Since you always mention the sooty tail pipes when you refer to the N54 TT engine, and I am on several BMW forums where it is never mentioned (and some of these guys are fussy and observant); I would appreciate a link to the discussion/explaining of this "fact". Or is this just your  personal opinion based on looking at BMW N54-engined tailpipes? 

[dave]

Still no correction.  Maybe BMW U.S. knows something we do not know…  In order for BMW to compete against high-power V-6’s such as Nissan’s VQ it might have to switch to V-6, VR-6 or H-6.  I think the current BMW I-6’s bore is maxed out, thence the turbo charging of the 335i engine, whose fuel metering is optimistic or inaccurate causing the tail pipes to be covered with soot. 

Bold is mine on G35X quote. Since you always mention the sooty tail pipes when you refer to the N54 TT engine, and I am on several BMW forums where it is never mentioned (and some of these guys are fussy and observant); I would appreciate a link to the discussion/explaining of this "fact". Or is this just your  personal opinion based on looking at BMW N54-engined tailpipes? 

Maybe G35X thinks that the black pipes (like on my 135i) are soot covered....when in fact they are black chrome like the "shadow line" trim of the sport package?  Never seen (in any of our 3 N54 cars - 335i, 535Xit, 135i) or heard of it otherwise.

[quadzilla]

Still no correction......

I wrote my contact that does the work for the BMW.ca site but they can't help. I tried.

[G35X]

“ Or is this just your personal opinion based on looking at BMW N54-engined tailpipes? “ – over50

That’s my observation on many 335i’s around here (There are quite a few of them.) I found many of them (if not all) with tailpipes covered with mat black something.  I would suggest you go take a look yourself.  I grew up with carbureted engines and it became my habit to see the tailpipes, which can tell you if the fuel/air mixture is too rich.

[ovr50]

“ Or is this just your personal opinion based on looking at BMW N54-engined tailpipes? “ – over50

That’s my observation on many 335i’s around here (There are quite a few of them.) I found many of them (if not all) with tailpipes covered with mat black something.  I would suggest you go take a look yourself.  I grew up with carbureted engines and it became my habit to see the tailpipes, which can tell you if the fuel/air mixture is too rich.

Since it is just your opinion with nothing to back it up, I will consider it a problem IF it ever becomes one, as yet no one with BMW N54 engines is concerned about it.

The sky is not yet falling......

[G35X]

Over50,

I just Googled and found the following:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=300117
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum/showthread.php?p=12793901

Also, 335i engine might be an oil burner:
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/showthread.php?t=241217
One of the posters said “They'd even get soot on the tailpipes which I've noticed on many 335's…”.

Another possibility is that many 335i’s around here are driven mostly for local errands with a cold engine most of the time.

[rrocket]

WTF is the big deal?  MANY turbo cars run rich...VERY rich...which is often the soot you see around the tailpipes.  Turbo engine are often more sensitive to variances in weather and fuel.  And although the car's ECU could likely cope with swings from weather or fuel, they run it rich to be safe.

On my car, for example, the difference between me running 94 octane fuel and crappy 91 (California premium) is dramatic. The ECU can't even compensate enough or pull enough timing. 

I suspect it's the same with many of these cars.  Look at this dyno graph....particularly the A/F line...it's HUGELY rich.....even once it gets to the leanest spot, it's still rich..........

[ovr50]

I agree - not a biggie.....

I read all the links and no one is very concerned. There is a ton of stuff put into forums on the net that many times reflect the ignorance of the poster (they are usually asking for a solution to something they have observed). and some of them are plain wrong.  I really base very little of my info on internet posts, although there are some knowledgible ppl on the net. Better to read the "Tech Section" in Bimmer magazine for more factual info.

In any event, G35X seems to have a "thing" about this topic, and I think that it is not a big deal, nor is it something I would worry. Nuf said.

[G35X]

Over50,
I do not have a “thing”.  My point is engineering. I respect BMW’s engineering prowess and would like to purchase a 328Xi if I can afford.  My concern is the too rich combustion.  I do not know if carbon particulate in the gas engine exhaust is regulated like that of diesel engine, but with to-day’s 3-way cat converter, the engine must go into stoichiometric combustion (actually slightly on the rich side) as soon as the engine and cat get warmed up.  For the cat to deoxidize NOX and to oxidize CO and HC properly it has to receive a proper mix of NOX, CO and HC in the exhaust.  Too lean air/fuel mixture means too much NOX to handle, too rich means too much HC and CO (and carbon particulate) goes out to the atmosphere.  I do not know how BMW passed the EPA test, but the soot so visible on the tailpipes is not a good sign.  (If you know the EPA test cycle well, maybe there is a way to get around it.)

The rrocket’s chart shows the air/fuel mixture of close to 12 to 1.  Possibly this engine is turbocharged and this rich condition is a necessity… more thermal energy in the combustion chamber means higher temperature, which could destroy the cylinder head, valve etc.  Therefore, the engine is designed to squirt more fuel than the available oxygen can burn allowing the unburned raw gas to dissipate taking the heat away as it evaporates.  This means more HC and C in the exhaust, possibly making the engine illegal.

[ovr50]

Over50,
I respect BMW’s engineering prowess...

Possibly this engine is turbocharged... 

This means more HC and C in the exhaust, possibly making the engine illegal.

Me too, that's why I am not worried at all.

Of course it is, I assumed you would know that. Requires 91 octane gas, I run mine on 94 Chevron.

Illegal? Are you serious? Do you think for one second that BMW of NA would sell a car in the US and Canada that has an "illegal" engine.

Again, you worry about it, I'm not. With due respect, I have a lot more faith in the BMW engineering staff than I have in your opinions. Sorry, that's life.

[G35X]

“ Of course it is, I assumed you would know that. Requires 91 octane gas, I run mine on 94 Chevron.... Illegal? Are you serious? Do you think for one second that BMW of NA would sell a car in the US and Canada that has an "illegal" engine… “ – over50

I was referring to the engine shown in rrocket’s chart. Is it N54’s?  Anyway, I do not think EPA cycle requires the engine at full boost and top rpm for a long period of time. If indeed the chart shows the performance of the N54, it may be legal, but in spirit it is cheating and in practice it shortens the life of the cat converter. Emission control regulations are getting tougher.  In addition to NOX and HC now the industry has to worry abut CO2 and carbon particulate.  Technically a clean turbocharged gas engine is difficult to make.  The days of 335i, RDX and CX-7 are numbered, I think. Much easier is electric motor assistance in low-rpm or high-torque situations… I am waiting for BMW’s answer to HS250h.

[rrocket]

Yea, that was a 335i dyno chart I posted.  The 12:1 is not horrid.  That's a pretty safe A/F for a turbo car.  As I said earlier, safe enough to take into consideration 91 octane fuel and varied temperature changes for the entire North American market.  FWIW, I run the Supra at 11.5:1 or so.  But it's what's BEFORE it goes to 12:1  As it's building power, it's anywhere from 14-16:1. It shows lean...so the car might be pulling massive timing and dumping fuel in to prevent detonation.  And that's as the car is being driven and building into boost...much like you'd drive on the street (granted, this pull is in 5th gear I would guess).  I've seen a couple dyno sheets AFTER they've smoothed up that huge spot (dropping it down almost 2 points) and the car picked up 40RWHP.  That's a TON and shows how much effect the ECU pulling the timing is doing to performance.

That being said, you're unlikely to see this when doing your EPA/Drive Clean testing.  Even my old technology Supra (when I was still twin turbo) passed the Drive Clean easily and with flying colours.  I don't see turbos going away anytime soon...I actually see more of them in future cars.

So yea..this is no big deal.  The cars are rich to prevent blown up engines.  Pretty common in forced induction applications...

[G35X]

“ The 12:1 is not horrid.  That's a pretty safe A/F for a turbo car.  As I said earlier, safe enough to take into consideration 91 octane fuel and varied temperature changes for the entire North American market.  FWIW, I run the Supra at 11.5:1 or so… “ – rrocket

Thank you, rrocket, for the information.  Of course 12:1 is not horrid.  If anything, you might want it even richer for the sake of engine welfare.  But, you are cooling the engine with $1/litre gas. Rather expensive engine coolant.  Besides, doing so the engine emits HC and C into the atmosphere.  Anyway we are talking about two different things.  You are talking about engine performance and I am talking about pollution.  Technical discussions are always fun and informative.

BTW, the flat torque curve of the 335i engine is impressive, for which I admire BMW’s engineering skill. Suppose the boost is rather mild 7psi (may be higher in reality), that means the effective compression ratio (not A/F) is more than 15:1, already in the detonation territory, and the engine needs to be cooled like hell.  I think its direct-to-cylinder fuel injection helps in this regard. The Supra engine did not have this luxury.

[rrocket]

  Anyway we are talking about two different things.  You are talking about engine performance and I am talking about pollution.  Technical discussions are always fun and informative.

BTW, the flat torque curve of the 335i engine is impressive, for which I admire BMW’s engineering skill. Suppose the boost is rather mild 7psi (may be higher in reality), that means the effective compression ratio (not A/F) is more than 15:1, already in the detonation territory, and the engine needs to be cooled like hell.  I think its direct-to-cylinder fuel injection helps in this regard. The Supra engine did not have this luxury.

But these parameters intersect.  If the engine is rich, or lean, pulling timing, dumping fuel, etc......these affect performance AND emissions/pollution....

[Kajun78]

Putting discussions of soot filled pipes aside for a moment...

Why on earth would BMW go to a V6? If they build one that isn't as smooth as the I6 everyone will laugh and yell FAIL! They would also be slammed if they failed to get more power from that configuration. This reminds me of when Porsche went for air cooled to liquid.

I just checked the link and they STILL haven't fixed it. Wow. The funny part is that they do refer to the inline-6 just a few lines below the V6 reference.

Now, about the pipes... I don't think I ever recall seeing a car that did not have some degree of soot build up in the tailpipes (other than those people that constantly clean such items). The car still has an internal combustion engine that burns gas and is lubricated by oil right? A certain amount of carbon is going to happen. If that weren't the case, why would emission controls have to be improved anymore as 0 build up would only happen if there was 0 carbon emissions. MAybe I'm missing something here?