Topic: Nissan 370Z vs. Cayman S

[The Mighty Duck]

The new Z looks like a brilliant machine - no doubt about that.  But I think, for the same money, it would be a tough choice between it and the BMW 135... 

[Wolfe]

Your power of observations are killer.     But if you look in this market segment, which includes EVOS, STi, BMWs, Caymans, the 3.7 L would be considered big displacement.  Comparing it to Vette and Vipers or V8 muscle cars?  Wrong...and not very bright. 

Granted the Viper isn't in the same market segment but the Nissan has a lot more in common with the domestic V8 muscle cars than it does with the Cayman. Add the Mustang and Challenger to your list above and lo and behold the Nissan's 3.7L ends up in the middle of the pack displacement wise.

Then again, if you ignore all the cars in the segment with bigger engines I guess the 3.7L really does seem like a big displacement, now I get it. You'll have to pardon me I'm not very bright.

[rrocket]

^^It's OK.  I forgive you.    But again.  I think they might be in the same price ball park....but the Mustang and Challenger are muscle cars.  Cars that while quick, generally aren't known for great handling.  All of the other cars I've listed are mostly considered "sports cars".  The V8 Mustang and Challenger fall more within the muscle car/American iron segment. I just don't think the Mustang and Challenger fall within the same segment as 370Z, S2000, Cayman, EVO, STI, etc.......But if you were purely shopping on price....I guess you could consider them.

[Mitlov]

Your power of observations are killer.     But if you look in this market segment, which includes EVOS, STi, BMWs, Caymans, the 3.7 L would be considered big displacement.  Comparing it to Vette and Vipers or V8 muscle cars?  Wrong...and not very bright. 

Granted the Viper isn't in the same market segment but the Nissan has a lot more in common with the domestic V8 muscle cars than it does with the Cayman. Add the Mustang and Challenger to your list above and lo and behold the Nissan's 3.7L ends up in the middle of the pack displacement wise.

Then again, if you ignore all the cars in the segment with bigger engines I guess the 3.7L really does seem like a big displacement, now I get it. You'll have to pardon me I'm not very bright.

The "big engine" was a relative term.  But it's all relative, really, isn't it?  A Mitsubishi EVO has a big engine compared to a Honda CBR600RR.  A 370Z has a big engine compared to an EVO.  A Viper has a big engine compared to a Viper.  A Veyron has a big engine compared to a Viper.  And so on and so on.

I was comparing the 370Z to the EVO.  They make the same horsepower, but one uses twice the displacement, whereas the other uses forced induction.  That'll give them very different characters.

[Black Hatch]

Your power of observations are killer.     But if you look in this market segment, which includes EVOS, STi, BMWs, Caymans, the 3.7 L would be considered big displacement.  Comparing it to Vette and Vipers or V8 muscle cars?  Wrong...and not very bright. 

Granted the Viper isn't in the same market segment but the Nissan has a lot more in common with the domestic V8 muscle cars than it does with the Cayman. Add the Mustang and Challenger to your list above and lo and behold the Nissan's 3.7L ends up in the middle of the pack displacement wise.

Then again, if you ignore all the cars in the segment with bigger engines I guess the 3.7L really does seem like a big displacement, now I get it. You'll have to pardon me I'm not very bright.

The "big engine" was a relative term.  But it's all relative, really, isn't it?  A Mitsubishi EVO has a big engine compared to a Honda CBR600RR.  A 370Z has a big engine compared to an EVO.  A Viper has a big engine compared to a Viper.  A Veyron has a big engine compared to a Viper.  And so on and so on.

I was comparing the 370Z to the EVO.  They make the same horsepower, but one uses twice the displacement, whereas the other uses forced induction.  That'll give them very different characters.

Speaking of displacement, what about the RX-8?  1.3L thats a one-third the displacement than the 370Z, definitely doesnt have 3 times the HP... not even 2x.. (okay you got me on torque)

[Wolfe]

I was comparing the 370Z to the EVO.  They make the same horsepower, but one uses twice the displacement, whereas the other uses forced induction.  That'll give them very different characters.

Sure, they'll have different characters but the old stereotypes regarding engine displacement just don't hold up anymore. Your relatively big displacement 3.7L makes its peak hp at 7K (as does the modern 7.0L Chevy smallblock in the Z06!) meanwhile the relatively smaller BMW 3.0L turbo engine has been described as feeling like a bigger V8 with lots of seamless torque low down in the rev range. Using an engine's displacement as a shorthand for describing its character is a tricky thing these days.

[Mitlov]

Sure, they'll have different characters but the old stereotypes regarding engine displacement just don't hold up anymore. Your relatively big displacement 3.7L makes its peak hp at 7K (as does the modern 7.0L Chevy smallblock in the Z06!) meanwhile the relatively smaller BMW 3.0L turbo engine has been described as feeling like a bigger V8 with lots of seamless torque low down in the rev range. Using an engine's displacement as a shorthand for describing its character is a tricky thing these days.

The "smaller means higher-revving and bigger means more torque" is assuming you're comparing naturally-aspirated to naturally-aspirated.  A turbocharged engine has a lot of torque, but it's still a very different subjective experience than the torque you get from a larger, naturally-aspirated engine.

[Wolfe]

^^It's OK.  I forgive you.    But again.  I think they might be in the same price ball park....but the Mustang and Challenger are muscle cars.  Cars that while quick, generally aren't known for great handling.  All of the other cars I've listed are mostly considered "sports cars". 

Impressive as they are I cannot fathom how you can consider the Evo and Sti to be "sports cars" while rejecting the Mustang and Challenger. You're incredibly loose with your definition when it comes to the two tarted up economy cars but seem to use a different standard to judge the domestics.

I know that there's decades of tradition to support the "aren't known for great handling" generalization but sometimes things do change....


Here's a review of the new Mustang:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2010-ford-mustang-gt-review/

The Bullitt made great strides in addressing the standard car’s handling issues. The 2010 Mustang GT crosses the finish line. More bracing, tighter spring rates, more damping, thicker sway bars and greatly improved aerodynamics work together to create the first Mustang in memory that thrives in the twisty stuff. Stick your head between the mufflers and you’re still greeted by a thick live axle. Ready for the truth: so what? After seven hours of constant, aggressive driving I encountered exactly one patch of asphalt that upset the rear end. But it was so cruddy that an IRS car would’ve spazzed, too.

And here's a review of the 370Z by the same author. Note he drove both in the space of a few days.
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/review-2009-nissan-270z/

I don’t know. I should be jumping up and down. On paper, the 370Z is a mean, corner-eating bastard. But something’s amiss. It’s too quiet inside, for one. And I really think the notorious FM platform is better suited to sedans (G) and sport-SUVs (FX) than pure sports cars. Put it like this: if it was my $30k (or so), I’d be shopping a (gulp) Mustang GT.

And here he asks the question of the day:
http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/question-of-the-day-2010-mustang-or-z/

Ah ha ha ha — I’m still having a ball. I love these X vs. Y QOTDs. Maybe it’s time for a new feature? Hmmm… Anyhow, there are a lot of people (er, were a lot of people) that purchase two-door sports coupes. So many in fact that Nissan’s on their 6th iteration of the Z and Ford’s Mustang is older than most people. Last week through, uh, fate, I was able to drive the 2010 versions of each car (Mustang review here ,370Z here). And as different as they are, man, are they the same. The Z makes do with “just” six cylinders yet weighs about 200 pounds less than the more powerful V8 ‘Stang. Therefore performance is nearly identical. In fact, so close that it just doesn’t matter. But surely the IRS Nissan has the edge over the live axle Mustang in the handling department, right? The 370Z might be able to provide flashier numbers on a skid pad, but on the street? The two cars feel equally capable. Looks? Take your pick — both cars are muscular, handsome, loaded with retro cues yet modern. Hamburger vs. Sushi? Depends on my mood — one has no inherent advantage over the other. 5-speed vs. 6-speed? I prefer 4-speeds. Interiors? Both are good, not great. So, how then? Here’s the thing — Nissan swore up and down that when they were developing the 370Z they didn’t bother to benchmark the Mustang. Porsche Cayman? Yes. BMW Z4? Yes. Audi TT? Yes. But while they were playing footsies with the Germans, Ford went ahead and developed the Bullitt, one of the greatest cars of the last 10 years. And the 2010 Mustang GT is a better Bullitt. So yeah, Mustang for me. You?

[Jaeger]

Right or wrong, bias or not, I DON'T look at the Challenger as occupying the same sports car class as, say, Cayman, and Z.  And it has nothing to to with one being domestic.  It has everything to do with one being the size of a house.  I don't doubt that it is it's own barrel of fun, but it's a really, really, really big barrel.  Saw an orange one pulling up in my rear-view mirror the other day - it seemed slightly wider than a semi.    Cool, but a different kind of cool than the other two.

Jaeger

[rrocket]

I consider the EVO X and STi sports cars because not only do they have great power (like the 'Stang and Challenger do)..but they also have very good handling compared to those two...especially over the Challenger.  The Mustang is decent (I'm no Mustang hater..I've owned several), but the handling will only go so far with the solid rear axle.

Maybe the term "sports cars" isn't the greatest.....I don't know which one you'd chose for those cars.  But definitely, IMO, the Stang and Challenger are muscle cars.....the others aren't...

[Triple Bob]

At the end of the day I think we should be celebrating that in a time of eco-everything and credit crunch and general crappy times for many businesses, that car manufacturers are still producing cars like the Cayman S, the 370Z, the Challenger and the Mustang.

Size, weight, culture, driving dynamics etc will always polarise opinions, I love sharp handling cars, but still love the nostalgia and retro awe surrounding the Challenger.  Yes it's no Lotus, and that's why I love it, over the however many years I will be driving in my lifetime I should experience as many petrol/gearhead cars as possible, all have their strengths and weaknesses.  It's a big heavy piece of Americana, one that I am not familiar with but look forward to experiencing, same with the Mustang.

Now my family situation (and the weather ha ha) may not lend itself to a 370Z at the moment but that doesn't stop me from wanting one of those as well.  In time I hope to own many more small nimble handling cars, maybe a couple of superfast Japanese cars, and definitely a muscle car or two, regardless of cornering prowess.  

Rather than slagging these cars and manufacturers off continuously, companies like Nissan should be commended for pushing out edgy designs that go quick and are good value for money, someday these cars might not exist.

Personally I don't think many people would cross shop the 370Z and the Cayman S in the real world, stats don't tell a true story when it comes to marques, people on here should at least know that as we've been down this road many times before.

My $0.02

[Mitlov]

TTAC chose a Mustang GT over a 370Z?  I must be living in parallel world. 

[rrocket]

TTAC chose a Mustang GT over a 370Z?  I must be living in parallel world. 

No Mitlov.  In this case they are either biased or on some cheap ass drugs.  How else could ANYONE say "Ford went ahead and developed the Bullitt, one of the greatest cars of the last 10 years"

Ummmm...Ok....

[Mitlov]

TTAC chose a Mustang GT over a 370Z?  I must be living in parallel world. 

No Mitlov.  In this case they are either biased or on some cheap ass drugs.  How else could ANYONE say "Ford went ahead and developed the Bullitt, one of the greatest cars of the last 10 years"

Ummmm...Ok....

Historically, hasn't TTAC had a strong anti-Detroit bias, not pro?

[inco]

I suspect we are heading down that road again with all of the varying opinions about what a sports car is, or isn't.

However I don't recall if GM, Ford or Chrysler ever marketed the 'Pony Cars' as they used to be called, as a sports car. Sporty yes and the ultimate in 'muscle car' with enough power to make a very big impression.

Years ago there were the bad ass motors like the hemi, the good ol 427 rocker and other variations coming in as 428's or 429's and they moved masses. And those engines were massive movers because the engines found their way into just about any model with wheels in their lineup. Remember the Cobra Jets?

Looking at Ford, as an example only, you could get the same big engine in the Galaxy, the Torino and the Mustang.  Stuffing those puppies into the smaller cars introduced us to the term muscle car which started way back with the original Mustang and was quickly copied by the GM twins and the Chryco Cuda and Challenger.

Small car - big motor = muscle car. No sporty intentions just fast quarter mile bragging rights. Sigh.

[Jaeger]

TTAC chose a Mustang GT over a 370Z?  I must be living in parallel world. 

No Mitlov.  In this case they are either biased or on some cheap ass drugs.  How else could ANYONE say "Ford went ahead and developed the Bullitt, one of the greatest cars of the last 10 years"

Ummmm...Ok....

Historically, hasn't TTAC had a strong anti-Detroit bias, not pro?

Correct.  Which makes the selection of 'Stang over Z surprising.  But bear in mind this was the opinion of one writer only. Not the equivalent of, say, the collective editorial opinion of a large comparison test or "best" list.  The Bullit is no doubt the best Mustang in a very long time, but to proclaim it one of the greatest cars in the last tens years smacks of hyperbole and a significant loss of perspective.

Jaeger

[rrocket]

but to proclaim it one of the greatest cars in the last tens years smacks of hyperbole and a significant loss of perspective.

Jaeger

Yea.  I agree.  Especially with a couple of greater cars Ford has done IMO.  2003 Supercharged Cobra, with IRS.  That was a better car...and some might say the Ford GT was also a pretty decent car....