Topic: ADDITIONAL DIESEL OPTIONS - FORD, PAY ATTENTION!!

[Thinking Out Loud]

Ford seems a little unsure of this opportunity - let's show them the LOVE (or hate) for diesels!

VW need some competition anyway! 

[Dante]

I always like options, but I keep wondering why no other mainstream manufacturer but VW brought a diesel to North America although they have them elsewhere?
How many TDIs does VW sell in North America - absolute and relative value?

[inco]

The problem is at what cost. Can Ford build a better and cheaper diesel?

I don't hold out much hope for more engines being sold when fuel costs are so much higher and supply will become limited, which translates into prices staying high. The new lower sulphur regs are to blame in part, that plus no new manufacturing facilities planned.

In the big smoke - the D fuel is about $.15-.20 per litre higher than regular. Not going to win many people over with that spread.

[Dante]

The diesels Ford uses in Europe are well regarded in general, so this wouldn't be a problem. However, the pure business sense is what prevents most of the manufacturers to bring diesels here, especially for the mainstream low-end cars.
I bet the Jetta TDI is not a volume seller for VW. They may sell every single one they get merely because they don't ship too many here anyway.

[NickZ]

BMW and Mercedes [likely Audi] have commited to more diesels. The BMW 335D and the SUV this year.

Nissan was/is supposed to be bringing diesels to the US for 2010. Likely built by their French partner.

The BMW 335D is basically a top of the line 3 series but doesn't it make more sense to start with the low volume models first?

The bigger question is why aren't they adding the natural gas tanks to all gasoline cars? Chevy Italy start that this year. You then get the choice of using whatever is cheaper or if you can't find a Natural gas station you can still fill up on gasoline.

The difference in per litre cost for diesels shouldn't be an issue. The average diesel gets much better mileage. Look at the 335D. From memory it's a 250HP 400+lb torque and manages something like 25 mpg city and 35 highway. US numbers with the low emmision setup. Imagine what sort of mileage a gas car that power would get.

[Thinking Out Loud]

I thought the Fiesta offering as ONLY diesels may limit their sales in limited diesel fuel markets, but would focus (no pun intended) on the diffentiating factor.  MPG RULES, fuel type or not. 

VW would sell more if they brought more, so exclusivity is their choice over with it being a low volume seller, rather than it be low interest model with stuff left on their lots. 

Just the insanity over the SINGLE year Dubbers went through until the 'clean' diesel could make it to N/A raised more or a clatter than a Cummins Diesel! 

[Wolverine]

I'm no so sure if this would make much difference. I don't see too much of an advantage a car that uses 30% less fuel, but this fuel costs 30% more. Please, correct me if there's some other variable I left out of the equation.

[NickZ]

Refiners are losing money on gasoline. Do a search on crack spreads.

You're already seeing US refiners changing how much gasoline they're making. The changes aren't easy but if they keep losing money on gasoline they'll do all it takes to produce less gasoline and more diesel etc.

I wouldn't count on the current price difference between gasoline and diesel lasting.

[safristi]

 "CRACK spreads are a dime a dozen.......................

[Dante]

I'm no so sure if this would make much difference. I don't see too much of an advantage a car that uses 30% less fuel, but this fuel costs 30% more. Please, correct me if there's some other variable I left out of the equation.

There is a $2000 or so premium on the diesel models over the gas ones.

It does not make economic sense overall, unless you drive an insane amount every year for many years I guess. The diesel used to me less expensive than the gas 15-20 years ago in Europe when the diesels became very popular. Not anymore.

[vdk]

torque

diesel pull like tractors..

ford's gettin their diesels from PSA in Europe.. so that's where they'll come from when/if we ever get them..

When the price of gas will go back up.. diesels will make more sense.. therefore i think they're a good investment in future sustainability...

[safristi]

man how many TRACTORS have ya driven ?? .......remoulade & stumpy wanna know???...

[Dante]

torque

diesel pull like tractors..

Do you really think that anyone would tow with a subcompact car? Trucks, large SUVs maybe...

[vdk]

uh..
 

im talkin about 200+ lb/ft of torque from 1200RPM till 4000RPM... from a 1.6L engine..

the old 1.9TDI w/ 100hp feels faster than the new 2.0TSI in the GTI in the real world.. where you don;t redline every gear...

and plus diesels are more forgiving to drive in stop n go traffic since you don't have to row them gears.. 

did i mention you can go 1000+ clicks on one tank?

[Dante]

There is always something like $2000 premium on diesels, plus the diesel costs more so there is little economic advantage on the diesels and only under certain circumstances. A good, economical engine of similar capacity would render only slightly worse fuel economy.
Corolla or Civic with 1.8L gas engine could go 1000 km on a tank too.

Torque, sure, the diesels have more, but what is the net advantage and how significant this advantage is.

[rrocket]

You guys have to look at what the BIG picture the new "eco" diesel in the Fiesta would be for Ford.  It has so many upsides...it would be not only a marketing bonanza, but a sales slam dunk IMO.

1) Supposedly as clean or cleaner than a hybrid
2) Less complex than a hybrid
3) Less weight than a hybrid
4) More torque than a hybrid
5) Better MPG than a hybrid..by alot.
6) Cheaper than a hybrid


So imagine "Do you want a car that's get more MPG than a hybrid, is less complex, more environmentally friendly and thousands cheaper?  Then look at the new Fiesta with EcoDiesel....."

Slam dunk IMO....

[vdk]

There is always something like $2000 premium on diesels, plus the diesel costs more so there is little economic advantage on the diesels and only under certain circumstances. A good, economical engine of similar capacity would render only slightly worse fuel economy.
Corolla or Civic with 1.8L gas engine could go 1000 km on a tank too.

Torque, sure, the diesels have more, but what is the net advantage and how significant this advantage is.

Take a full options 1.8L rolla for a spin (or a civic) and then an old 1.9TDI Jetta... considering the civic/rolla make ~140hp and the Jetta (which is heavier) makes 100hp.. and tell me which one feels faster out there in the real world.. in day to day driving HP alone and 0-60 times mean close to nothing..

As of now.. w/ 73c gas.. the only reason to buy a diesel is brand image (benz).. driving dynamics (bmw) .. and a mix of those 2 more or less.. VWs..

[rrocket]

^^And fuel economy...that new EcoDiesel can nail down 40+ MPG city and 76MPG highway.  Cheap gas or not....I can't dismiss those exceptional numbers....

[barrie1]

A good diesel engine if maintained properly can easily go up to and actually beyond the million mile mark before needing to be rebuilt or replaced. Very few owners will keep them that long  as boredom with the vehilce generally is the 1st reason why they want to deal as often as they do. Reliability I suspect would be next as well as comfort and safety also. 

[NickZ]

A good, economical engine of similar capacity would render only slightly worse fuel economy.
Corolla or Civic with 1.8L gas engine could go 1000 km on a tank too.

If that was true Toyota and Honda wouldn't be building hybrids. Even the hybrids get worse mileage then diesels.

The Civic with a 1.8 litre engine is 44mpg. That's quite a bit less then a similar car would be with a diesel engine.
Can't post links. Go to the Honda UK site and check the civic 1.8L



Or a bigger diesel car with a bigger engine:
 
Check BMW UK 3 series technical


Better mileage. Heavier. The 318D is almost 60mpg. Even the 325D is slightly better then the Honda 1.8 gas civic