Author Topic: Jeremy C on the new Fiesta  (Read 13324 times)

Offline tpl

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Jeremy C on the new Fiesta
« on: November 30, 2008, 07:09:54 am »
Jeremy at his most Politically correct I'd say    ::)

The anti-car lobby can never win its argument until it begins to understand that here in the West the car is not a tool. It is not a white good. It is not an alternative to the bus or the train. We do not buy cars like we buy dishwashers and toasters. It’s not a decision made on cost or practicality and it certainly has nothing to do with the environment. Otherwise everyone would have a Hyundai Accent with a three-cylinder diesel engine. Or a bus pass.
The reason we don’t is that cars, here, are status symbols, they are penis substitutes, they are cherished members of the family, they are heart-starters, they are art, they are sex, they are glamorous, they are cool, they are something you probably don’t need. But, my God, you want one so badly that it hurts. Giving up your car is like giving up an emotion. It’s like giving up love, or happiness. And that’s why people will sell their children before they’ll sell their wheels.
However, in what we must now call the developing world, it doesn’t work like that. Cars are not substitutes for empty underpants. They are not glamorous. They are white, made in Korea and really nothing more than vinyl oxen with wheels. Offer anyone in India a transport solution that’s cheaper and more convenient and they’ll bite your hand off. All the way up to your shoulder.
Working out why this is so does not take much time. It’s because here the car was exciting from the get-go. It was about motor racing and Donald Campbell. It was about glamour and sophistication. Every time you stepped into your Austin Seven you were only a tuned carburettor away from hurtling through Casino Square in Monte Carlo. We’ve always felt — and still do — that the car is a little bit decadent, a little bit Princess Grace. That every single one of them has the soul of Wolfgang von Trips in its carpets.

Background
This is why, for us, looks are important and speed is more important still. A car stands or falls on the time it takes to get from rest to 60mph. Boys are born in Britain knowing instinctively that a car that does this in four seconds is cool and that one that does it in 18 is rubbish.
Whereas in places with earthquakes and mud and flies, zero to 60 is irrelevant. And good looks mean that some of the interior space must have been compromised. A Hyundai van with 12 seats and a diesel engine. That’s what gets them going in Nigeria.
This is because cars did not drip down into the African psyche from Princess Grace and von Trips. They came in sideways, as nothing more than tools to prop up the economy. That’s why no one in Vietnam wants a Lamborghini. It doesn’t have enough seats. It uses too much petrol. The import taxes are too high. The roads are too rough.
I watched this in action on my recent trips over there. In the course of several weeks, I was driven around by a selection of young men who, had they been from Bolton, would have treated their government-owned vans as though they were touring-car racers. This didn’t happen, though.
There was one chap — we’ll call him Charlie — who was in charge of a Toyota minivan, which is a Saigon supercar, but not once, ever, did he exceed 1500rpm. He would begin in second and switch immediately to fourth, where we would remain, come what may. He even parked in fourth, which meant the engine was turning over at about one rev per hour. For me the pain was excruciating. I would sit gripping my thighs, grinding my teeth, biting my tongue to stop myself turning to him and saying: “First. For God’s sake, man. First.”
On the open road, we plodded along at 20, each piston moving up and down as though propelled by continental drift, and the whole cabin shaking itself to death. To begin with I asked politely for him to speed up. But after a day I was on my knees in the footwell, begging.
He looked at me as though I might be mad. Why speed up? That would place undue strain on the engine, chew expensive fuel and simply mean he’d get to wherever he was going more quickly. And since he was being paid whether he was there or on the way, he obviously couldn’t see the point of hurrying. Certainly he couldn’t see that taking his stupid van to the red line and hanging its tail out in the bends might actually be fun. Spending money on speed is simply not a fun pastime when you earn only £500 a year.
Charlie, then, would certainly not understand the new Ford Fiesta. “Why does the roof taper like that?” he would ask. “Surely this makes the boot smaller than it need be.”
This is true. The boot on the new Fiesta could be bigger, but then the outside wouldn’t look so good, and that’s what got under my skin so much. Being a western boy with a disposable income and a love of fine watches, I was bowled over by the styling of this little car. For that reason alone I’d buy one. And that’s just the start.
For a period, beginning with the booted Escort in about 1992, Ford completely lost the plot. Its cars were ugly, unforgivably from a company that had given us lookers such as the RS 2000, the Mk 3 Escort, the Mk 1 Cortina and even the Zodiac. But worse, they were terrible to drive. It was almost as though the boys from the blue oval had given up.
Then along came a man called Richard Parry-Jones. He is Welsh. But he was in charge of how the original Ford Focus should drive, and it was he who insisted it was given expensive independent rear suspension. The result was amazing. Focuses were just . . . better.
Then, shortly afterwards, they employed someone who isn’t Welsh to work on the way Fords look. We saw the fruits of their Biro with the current Mondeo, which is let down only by its familiarity. And we have seen it again with the Fiesta.
I say again. It is a cracker. And, like the original Focus, it is a cracker to drive as well. Demonstrably better than anything else for the same sort of money.
Part of that is down to a fine chassis but some of it is also down to the engine. I tried a 1.6, which has twin independent cam shaft timing. The result is a smoothness you simply don’t expect in a car of this type, and 118bhp. That’s eight more than you got from the original Golf GTI.
Of course, other engines are available, one of which produces such a small amount of carbon dioxide, it’ll kill every plant in your garden. But you won’t pay any road tax. I should also say the range begins at just £8,700, although the model you get for this has the luxuries of a cave.
My car, on the other hand, had air-conditioning, cruise control, iPod connectivity, leather seats, blue teeth, parking assistance, a heated front windscreen, a trip computer, traction control and privacy glass. In short, everything you would find on a mid-range Mercedes. And yet it cost only £14,970. It’s mind-blowing value.
It’s a mind-blowing car. Yes, you can get a roomier Far East box for less, and you would do just that if you lived in a house made from bamboo. But you don’t. And because none of your children has ever been eaten by a crocodile, believe me, this is one of those cars that tick and tickle every one of your western boxes.
It’s sensible. It’s well priced. It’s much more comfortable and quiet than you have any right to hope for in this part of the marketplace, and because it’s made by Germans, it’s well bolted together too. But most important of all, it’s so much more than a tool. So much more than a white good. It’s fun. And as a result, I shall do an unusual thing and award it five stars.
THE CLARKSOMETER
 
Clarkson’s Verdict: Ooh, you little beauty
Ford Fiesta Titanium 1.6
ENGINE 1596cc, four cylinders
POWER 118bhp @ 6000rpm
TORQUE 112 lb ft @ 4050rpm
TRANSMISSION Five-speed manual
FUEL 47.9mpg (combined)
CO2 139g/km
ACCELERATION 0-62mph in 9.9sec
TOP SPEED120mph
PRICE £13,195
ROAD TAX BAND C (£120 a year)
RELEASE DATE On sale now


His tester would be ( allowing for UK VAT that is included in the price  $24K plus our taxes  and the price shown above  $21k. Which seems sort of in the bracket  for a very well equipped small car but it is a size smaller than the competition here.
« Last Edit: November 30, 2008, 07:17:59 am by tpl »
The most radical revolutionary will become a conservative the day after the revolution.

Offline The Mighty Duck

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Re: Jeremy C on the new Fiesta
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2008, 11:08:35 am »
Considering the Fiesta would compete with the Fit, Yaris, etc., that pricing is just too high.  MINI might be able to sell a premium small car for a lot of money, but Ford is not MINI.  A Fit Sport with manual transmission is $19 280 ($23 266 on the road).  That's where the Fiesta would need to be priced to compete, I think.

Still, I do really like the sound of the Fiesta.  It looks fantastic, and by accounts is going to be fantastic to drive, too.  If Ford can get the pricing right (and that might be hard, if it's being built in Germany), then they might just have a real winner.

I'd love to see a Mazda2 built on this same platform, too...  :drool:

Offline tpl

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Re: Jeremy C on the new Fiesta
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2008, 11:13:38 am »
Maybe, just maybe we should all get used to paying higher prices for cars. It would not surprise me if at some point in the nearish future  that the Gov would not impose extra taxes on cars just to force people into greenery. I know that this sounds weird with the govs of NA about to give( in this context  give == a loan that will never be paid back)  huge amounts of money to the automakers, but higher taxes on cars and fuel with the money spent on public transit....

Online PJungnitsch

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Re: Jeremy C on the new Fiesta
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2008, 12:16:04 pm »
That's not high pricing for Britain, Fit's starting price there ranges from £9,990 to £13,590 ($18,941 to $25,767).

It's just an expensive country.

Offline The Mighty Duck

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Re: Jeremy C on the new Fiesta
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2008, 12:18:44 pm »
Maybe, just maybe we should all get used to paying higher prices for cars. It would not surprise me if at some point in the nearish future  that the Gov would not impose extra taxes on cars just to force people into greenery. I know that this sounds weird with the govs of NA about to give( in this context  give == a loan that will never be paid back)  huge amounts of money to the automakers, but higher taxes on cars and fuel with the money spent on public transit....

Imposing extra taxes on what are already some of the greenest cars available would be a backwards move.  Right now our government provides a rebate on cars like the Fit because they get good mileage and they want to encourage people to buy them...  I think that if anything they'll continue along that route.

By all means tax gas guzzlers, but don't make the cars we want people to buy more expensive.

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Re: Jeremy C on the new Fiesta
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2008, 12:19:30 pm »
..getting CHEAPER by the minute as they are having the Biggest meltdown in EuroLand.........whats wrong with letting people BUY the cars they want with their hard earned money...............................................they will pay for it thru GST/PST & GAS TAXES/Insurance as per it's frugality OR lack thereof....in other words there are BIG incentives there anyway.......obviously U don't like Clarksons take on Western Male EGO... :rofl:
« Last Edit: November 30, 2008, 12:22:40 pm by safristi »
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Offline MKII

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Re: Jeremy C on the new Fiesta
« Reply #6 on: November 30, 2008, 12:38:00 pm »
  If Ford can get the pricing right (and that might be hard, if it's being built in Germany), then they might just have a real winner.
I'd love to see a Mazda2 built on this same platform, too...  :drool:

Ford N.A will build the Fiesta in Mexico, production begins 2nd quarter 2010.
The Mazda2 is already built on the same platform as the new Fiesta.
Fiesta North American pricing will compare to to the Honda Fit.

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Re: Jeremy C on the new Fiesta
« Reply #7 on: November 30, 2008, 04:44:59 pm »
Considering the Fiesta would compete with the Fit, Yaris, etc., that pricing is just too high.  MINI might be able to sell a premium small car for a lot of money, but Ford is not MINI.  A Fit Sport with manual transmission is $19 280 ($23 266 on the road).  That's where the Fiesta would need to be priced to compete, I think.

Still, I do really like the sound of the Fiesta.  It looks fantastic, and by accounts is going to be fantastic to drive, too.  If Ford can get the pricing right (and that might be hard, if it's being built in Germany), then they might just have a real winner.

I'd love to see a Mazda2 built on this same platform, too...  :drool:
It'd be high if the base level was that expensive but I don't think it will be.  If they can get the base level to around $15,000ish they will be doing very well.  But the thing these days is that small cars can also have luxury/technology features that they were never considered to have in the past.  The Fiesta will probably bring some of this to the front.

Even the Yaris and Fit can reach $20,000 if you aim for the top models.  Its not completely the "money = more room paradigm" anymore.

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Re: Jeremy C on the new Fiesta
« Reply #8 on: December 01, 2008, 11:17:54 am »
I'm sure the North American version of the Fiesta will be priced in line with the North American Yaris and Fit. Remember that the cars are priced according to each market and a direct exchange rate is not relevant at all.
The good thing is that the car seems to be good enough to look at and drive to impress Clarkson.

Offline tpl

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Re: Jeremy C on the new Fiesta
« Reply #9 on: December 01, 2008, 12:15:49 pm »
You maybe miss my point.  More taxes on ALL cars in ALL of NA is what I am suggesting could happen and maybe should happen. Not tomorrow or the next day but within 5-10 years.  After the NA auto biz has recovered as much as it will do and the economy as well, maybe an extra 10% on all cars before GST/PSt/State sales taxes.     A sort of floor price of maybe $25k. Combined with a program to get cars with old emission gear off the road ( except for vehicles with historic plates Barrie) like the Japanese do  This would please the greenie sand possibly please our transit services and social service budgets

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Re: Jeremy C on the new Fiesta
« Reply #10 on: December 01, 2008, 04:26:32 pm »
Quote
There was one chap — we’ll call him Charlie — who was in charge of a Toyota minivan, which is a Saigon supercar, but not once, ever, did he exceed 1500rpm. He would begin in second and switch immediately to fourth, where we would remain, come what may. He even parked in fourth, which meant the engine was turning over at about one rev per hour. For me the pain was excruciating. I would sit gripping my thighs, grinding my teeth, biting my tongue to stop myself turning to him and saying: “First. For God’s sake, man. First.”
On the open road, we plodded along at 20, each piston moving up and down as though propelled by continental drift, and the whole cabin shaking itself to death. To begin with I asked politely for him to speed up. But after a day I was on my knees in the footwell, begging.

Oh god, I can relate to that...in Nicaragua, every car we rode in, the drivers who used a 5-speed would shift in first, second and then settle on third for everything else, even highway speeds! I was going nuts, I wanted to throw them out the window and take over.
So you in the car and not on top of it :rofl2:

Offline rrocket

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Re: Jeremy C on the new Fiesta
« Reply #11 on: December 01, 2008, 08:02:08 pm »
I really like this car...alot.  I'm still struggling with the stupidity of Ford not to bring it over here with a diesel...stupid, stupid, stupid....
How fast is my 911?  Supras sh*t on on me all the time...in reverse..with blown turbos  :( ...

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Re: Jeremy C on the new Fiesta
« Reply #12 on: December 01, 2008, 08:23:57 pm »
Demo that's why with a north American mindset you would get a cheaper, watered down not as good version. Then everyone would moan about not getting the great euro version. You have to pay for quality, just look at the focus too.   


Choosing a car based on reliability is like choosing a wife based solely because she is punctual. There is more to it than that...

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Re: Jeremy C on the new Fiesta
« Reply #13 on: December 01, 2008, 09:40:06 pm »
Demo that's why with a north American mindset you would get a cheaper, watered down not as good version. Then everyone would moan about not getting the great euro version. You have to pay for quality, just look at the focus too.   

The Nissan Versa offers most of the same features Clarkson's tester had, and tops out at $20 000 (before taxes).

Looking at the Fiesta, I don't think it would be worth an extra $4000 on top of that for the features you get.

A really good small car might be worth $27 000 on the road.  But the Fiesta does not strike me as being worth that much.  Certainly premium small cars can work - take the Acura CSX, for example.

Now, if Honda would sell us the Euro Civic for ~$30k, maybe call it the CSX Hatch, I think that would do well.  But $27k for the Fiesta?  I'm doubtful...

Offline dr_spock

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Re: Jeremy C on the new Fiesta
« Reply #14 on: December 01, 2008, 10:07:39 pm »
Ford could try to rebadge it as a Lincoln to sell at a higher price.  I don't see NA going for high priced small Ford models.  There is too much precedence with associating small Ford cars with low prices in the NA mindset.



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Re: Jeremy C on the new Fiesta
« Reply #15 on: December 01, 2008, 10:13:52 pm »
Demo that's why with a north American mindset you would get a cheaper, watered down not as good version. Then everyone would moan about not getting the great euro version. You have to pay for quality, just look at the focus too.   

The Nissan Versa offers most of the same features Clarkson's tester had, and tops out at $20 000 (before taxes).

Looking at the Fiesta, I don't think it would be worth an extra $4000 on top of that for the features you get.

A really good small car might be worth $27 000 on the road.  But the Fiesta does not strike me as being worth that much.  Certainly premium small cars can work - take the Acura CSX, for example.

Now, if Honda would sell us the Euro Civic for ~$30k, maybe call it the CSX Hatch, I think that would do well.  But $27k for the Fiesta?  I'm doubtful...

What you fail to understand is that Fiesta, in UK is priced according to the UK market. Relative to the UK market, Fiesta is well priced and J. Clarkson mentioned that in his article.

When Fiesta will come to North America, I'm sure it will be priced relative to the US and Canadian markets. Ford is not that stupid to price itself out of the market.

BTW: Versa (nor Yaris and Fit) does not offer ESP (in Canada at least), leather interior, parking assist, heated windshield, auto sensing wipers, auto head lights, etc.




Offline Dante

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Re: Jeremy C on the new Fiesta
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2008, 10:18:46 pm »
Ford could try to rebadge it as a Lincoln to sell at a higher price.  I don't see NA going for high priced small Ford models.  There is too much precedence with associating small Ford cars with low prices in the NA mindset.




It's been already decided that the Fiesta will come to North America as FORD. The official 2011 Ford Fiesta mini site with more details:
 http://www.fordvehicles.com/2011fiesta/index.asp

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Re: Jeremy C on the new Fiesta
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2008, 10:25:36 pm »
Check this article out and look at the votes (at least at the time of my posting, Fiesta was leading the poll by a large margin).

http://www.autoblog.com/2008/12/01/mulally-driving-to-washington-but-what-car-should-he-drive/1#comments

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Re: Jeremy C on the new Fiesta
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2008, 10:50:37 pm »
What you fail to understand is that Fiesta, in UK is priced according to the UK market. Relative to the UK market, Fiesta is well priced and J. Clarkson mentioned that in his article.

When Fiesta will come to North America, I'm sure it will be priced relative to the US and Canadian markets. Ford is not that stupid to price itself out of the market.

BTW: Versa (nor Yaris and Fit) does not offer ESP (in Canada at least), leather interior, parking assist, heated windshield, auto sensing wipers, auto head lights, etc.

::)  I understand market pricing.  My concern was that, because the Fiesta is built in Germany, it might be very difficult for Ford to get Canadian pricing down to where it needs to be for this car to do well.  It's right there in my first post.

Now, if the NA Fiesta is indeed built in Mexico as MKII suggests, then Ford should be able to price it appropriately.  :)

Offline Triple Bob

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Re: Jeremy C on the new Fiesta
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2008, 10:52:46 pm »
Demo that's why with a north American mindset you would get a cheaper, watered down not as good version. Then everyone would moan about not getting the great euro version. You have to pay for quality, just look at the focus too.   

The Nissan Versa offers most of the same features Clarkson's tester had, and tops out at $20 000 (before taxes).

Looking at the Fiesta, I don't think it would be worth an extra $4000 on top of that for the features you get.

A really good small car might be worth $27 000 on the road.  But the Fiesta does not strike me as being worth that much.  Certainly premium small cars can work - take the Acura CSX, for example.

Now, if Honda would sell us the Euro Civic for ~$30k, maybe call it the CSX Hatch, I think that would do well.  But $27k for the Fiesta?  I'm doubtful...

You're missing the point entirely, it's not about features, it's about design flair, fit and finish.  Look at both versions of the Focus for what I am talking about, you can probably get the same features in the US Focus, but it's hideous, made with cheaper parts and looks and feels cheap.  The Euro Focus is more expensive (and would be here if they brought it over) but is a much nicer design and the materials are top notch.

People think these cars are expensive, but you get what you pay for... If you want a well designed quality small car, it's gonna be more expensive than a cheap small car made out of cheaper materials, you pays your money and makes your choice.

It's the same manufacturer yes, but they pander to their local markets.