Topic: Kids and Self-Esteem - Globe & Mail Article

[Brig]

I found this quite interesting.

Want to build your child's self-esteem?
Tell them how ordinary they are. A growing body of research suggests that praising kids for their talent and intelligence doesn't help them achieve success - it sets them up for disappointment.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20081028.wxlesteem28/BNStory/lifeFamily/home

[tpl]

Honesty is good.... most of us are ordinary and were so when we were kids.

[wannabe4x4ing]

There's a book called: Hold Onto Your Kids by Dr. Greg Neufeld. It discusses how children's peers have become more important than their parents through misplaced attachment and unrelateability to their parents.

In his book, he talks about how when your children receive praise for their successes and accomplishments rather than their efforts and just being themselves (ex. Good job! You're so smart! instead of, Wow, you should be proud of yourself. You tried really hard!) it really gives them the impression that their relationship with their parents is reliant on a job well done.

I've taken a lot of parenting courses, and the Hold Onto Your Kids seminar was the most eye-opening thing I've ever seen. I highly recommend this book or this course to anyone. It's not a how-to course on parenting. It's just tools and insight onto how to create solid relationships with our kids.

[UmroAyyar]

Very interesting read indeed. IMO, Being realistic with children works out better in the long run.

My opinion is solely based on my interaction with my nephews and nieces as they were/are growing up. Some disappointment is necessary with all the praise children get, just get real, don't be pessimistic (oh you can never achieve that). We falter sometimes, we pick ourselves up and strive for success and succeed.

[rrocket]

Parents treat their kids like Kings and Queens now....hardly any limits.  Discipline at school (or wherever) is almost non-existent now.  Nobody "wins" in sports anymore (if they even keep score).  It's no wonder so many kids are monsters...

[johngenx]

False praise is crap and you're just setting your kids up to crash and burn when Mommy and Daddy aren't around anymore to lie to them.

It also breeds narcissistic brats that think the world owes them a big house, fancy car and high-paying job "just 'cause they're so SPECIAL!!"

Now, I'm not saying that when your kids try something and fail that you should berate them.  However, there is a significant difference between encouragement and false praise.  It's the old "that was a good attempt, but let's see what we can do to get closer to the goal on the next go around."

This summer my daughter took on a new rock climbing route (new to her) and it was more difficult than any she had done before.  Sure enough, she barely got half way up it.  She lowered off and was severely pissed off.  By the end of the day she had nailed it, but only because she refused to go away beaten.  I was one proud poppa when she never once whined about "doing her best."  I actually reveled in her failure induced tantrums and refusal to untie from the rope until she was too exhausted to continue without a break.  For the rest of the weekend she earned her pride in completing the route.

We need to teach kids resolve.  Teach them not to be happy with failure, even if they did their "best."  It won't teach them to learn from their mistakes and try again with new effort and better strategies.  Sean Connery said it best in The Rock:

"Losers whine about doing their best.  Winners go home and f*ck the prom queen."

[Sir Osis of Liver]

 

 

[barrie1]

WEll put John. 

[tenpenny]

  Nobody "wins" in sports anymore (if they even keep score). 

You've got to be joking.  My girls play soccer, lacrosse, hockey, badminton...and believe me, everybody keeps score.  Even at the Novice level, when there was no score on the scoreboard, they all knew who won, and it mattered.

That 'nobody wins' crap is invented by parents who don't understand the concept of competition.  The kids understand, and they all know.

If you're a parent who buys into that foolishness, give your head a shake.  You're not fooling ANYBODY! 

[tpl]

  Nobody "wins" in sports anymore (if they even keep score). 

You've got to be joking.  My girls play soccer, lacrosse, hockey, badminton...and believe me, everybody keeps score.  Even at the Novice level, when there was no score on the scoreboard, they all knew who won, and it mattered.

That 'nobody wins' crap is invented by parents who don't understand the concept of competition.  The kids understand, and they all know.

If you're a parent who buys into that foolishness, give your head a shake.  You're not fooling ANYBODY! 

From what I have read that "nobody wins"  is a function of the feminization of the schools,the lack of male teachers in the public schools. Its the same thing as this idea of not being allowed to criticize or  to offend any kid or their culture or even prefer one culture over another. You know, the no Christmas carols thing.
In TO I suspect that some of it is so the little darlings don't get all hung up about losing and go home and borrow big brother's gun and come and shoot their schoolmates.

I agree that the kids understand who won.

[Snowman]

False praise is crap and you're just setting your kids up to crash and burn when Mommy and Daddy aren't around anymore to lie to them.

It also breeds narcissistic brats that think the world owes them a big house, fancy car and high-paying job "just 'cause they're so SPECIAL!!"

Now, I'm not saying that when your kids try something and fail that you should berate them.  However, there is a significant difference between encouragement and false praise.  It's the old "that was a good attempt, but let's see what we can do to get closer to the goal on the next go around."

This summer my daughter took on a new rock climbing route (new to her) and it was more difficult than any she had done before.  Sure enough, she barely got half way up it.  She lowered off and was severely pissed off.  By the end of the day she had nailed it, but only because she refused to go away beaten.  I was one proud poppa when she never once whined about "doing her best."  I actually reveled in her failure induced tantrums and refusal to untie from the rope until she was too exhausted to continue without a break.  For the rest of the weekend she earned her pride in completing the route.

We need to teach kids resolve.  Teach them not to be happy with failure, even if they did their "best."  It won't teach them to learn from their mistakes and try again with new effort and better strategies.  Sean Connery said it best in The Rock:

"Losers whine about doing their best.  Winners go home and f*ck the prom queen."

  Great post John.

[gottarondo]

The understanding has been out there for a long time that the whole self-esteem-boosting thing is bogus, and many parents are getting it but the school system mostly still doesn't.  The remaining parents, many of whom take their parenting cues from the school system, are thus screwing their kids, whether the kids are falling for the school's attitude or not.

But most kids don't fall for it - because as has been said, the kids know even when the adults refuse to say.  In my kids' elementary school a couple of years ago - no lie! - the announcement the morning after a school soccer game was that "our boys' soccer team played XXX yesterday and everyone showed great sportsmanship!"  (and that was with a male principal).  Stuff like that is so bogus that I think it contributes to the alienation of kids from adults.  The kids know the school is offside, and if the parents mindlessly support and cheerlead the school, the kids realize they can't talk to their parents either.  So their peers become the only people they can talk honestly to.

Hold On To Your Kids is the holy grail of parenting today, I agree.

[Mitlov]

Parents treat their kids like Kings and Queens now....hardly any limits.  Discipline at school (or wherever) is almost non-existent now.  Nobody "wins" in sports anymore (if they even keep score).  It's no wonder so many kids are monsters...

Do you really think that not keeping score in little kid's tee-ball and kick-ball contributes in part to juvenile crime?!

[safristi]

  YES...just look how those BIG PHILLIE BULLIES....kicked that Lil bitty RAYS ASS..... ..........................

[Mitlov]

We need to teach kids resolve.  Teach them not to be happy with failure, even if they did their "best."  It won't teach them to learn from their mistakes and try again with new effort and better strategies.  Sean Connery said it best in The Rock:

"Losers whine about doing their best.  Winners go home and f*ck the prom queen."

I couldn't disagree more.  Let's take the example of a big sports tournament with 200 competitors (becuse I'd rather not continue on with this whole f*cking-the-prom-queen metaphor for victory).  Only ONE person can be first place.  If you tell kids that not coming in first is "failure," and that they need to show resolve instead of being happy that they did their best, you are setting up 199 of those 200 kids to walk away unhappy with themselves.  Because it is physically impossible for 200 kids to all be first place, no matter how much resolve they have, no matter how hard they've practiced, no matter how much of themselves they give.

Maybe your kid will come in first.  Most likely they won't, even if they compete at the absolute best of their abilities.  Regardless, if you look beyond your individual family and see all 200 families, it makes no sense for every single family to tell their kid that they're a failure and they lack resolve unless they come in first.

If you want to praise resolve in a kid, praise the resolve itself.  Don't praise victory itself as some proxy for resolve, because no matter how much resolve your kid shows, he/she is not going to win every contest and surmount every obstacle they come across.

[safristi]

..i rhaissed yer motherrs self esteem lasht nite and tha wee kiddies were oblivious.......wotsa Porn Queen? ...............you ALL sound like yer Fathers/Mothers............

[johngenx]

I couldn't disagree more.  Let's take the example of a big sports tournament with 200 competitors (becuse I'd rather not continue on with this whole f*cking-the-prom-queen metaphor for victory).  Only ONE person can be first place.  If you tell kids that not coming in first is "failure," and that they need to show resolve instead of being happy that they did their best, you are setting up 199 of those 200 kids to walk away unhappy with themselves.  Because it is physically impossible for 200 kids to all be first place, no matter how much resolve they have, no matter how hard they've practiced, no matter how much of themselves they give.

Maybe your kid will come in first.  Most likely they won't, even if they compete at the absolute best of their abilities.  Regardless, if you look beyond your individual family and see all 200 families, it makes no sense for every single family to tell their kid that they're a failure and they lack resolve unless they come in first.

If you want to praise resolve in a kid, praise the resolve itself.  Don't praise victory itself as some proxy for resolve, because no matter how much resolve your kid shows, he/she is not going to win every contest and surmount every obstacle they come across.

My perception is clouded because I/we don't participate in team/group/scored sports.  All of our activities are based on competing with one's self.  So, I think we're on the same page, but it's not obvious.  Suppose the goal is to run a 45 minute 10K.  47 minutes is a good attempt, but short of the goal.  I don't care if someone else runs it in 32 minutes, the goal is knock 2 minutes off my time, and push myself to do it.

Keeping score in a fourth grade gym class floor-hockey game is not what I'm talking about.  I'm talking about teaching children to set a goal that is beyond their current level of achievement, and busting their ass to make it.  And during the process, not to be happy with not achieving the goal by saying they "did all they could."

[Mitlov]

My perception is clouded because I/we don't participate in team/group/scored sports.  All of our activities are based on competing with one's self.  So, I think we're on the same page, but it's not obvious.  Suppose the goal is to run a 45 minute 10K.  47 minutes is a good attempt, but short of the goal.  I don't care if someone else runs it in 32 minutes, the goal is knock 2 minutes off my time, and push myself to do it.

Keeping score in a fourth grade gym class floor-hockey game is not what I'm talking about.  I'm talking about teaching children to set a goal that is beyond their current level of achievement, and busting their ass to make it.  And during the process, not to be happy with not achieving the goal by saying they "did all they could."

We're not on the same page.

Your theory assumes that someone can accomplish ANYTHING if one just tries hard enough.  What happens when someone sets an unrealistic goal?  When something turns out to be beyond their physical or mental ability, despite their best efforts?  It will happen to us all, sooner or later.  What happens when your kid resolves to run a half-marathon at a time that turns out to be faster than their body can physically handle?  Do you label them a loser or a quitter when they bust their butt for months, realize it's an unrealistic goal, and move on?  Or do you congratulate them on their effort?

[johngenx]

We're not on the same page.

Your theory assumes that someone can accomplish ANYTHING if one just tries hard enough.  What happens when someone sets an unrealistic goal?  When something turns out to be beyond their physical or mental ability, despite their best efforts?  It will happen to us all, sooner or later.  What happens when your kid resolves to run a half-marathon at a time that turns out to be faster than their body can physically handle?  Do you label them a loser or a quitter when they bust their butt for months, realize it's an unrealistic goal, and move on?  Or do you congratulate them on their effort?

Now you're being silly.  Part of parenting is teaching them how to set realistic, but difficult, goals.  My "theory" does not assume one can reach any goal, regardless of potential.  Many climbing routes in the Rockies are too difficult for me, and I know I will never have the ability to climb them.  But, I can seek to keep improving.  If I reach the limit of my physical ability, perhaps I can go higher/farther with knowledge or technical ability.  Maybe I can train harder or better?  Set the bar high, for me, and then work hard to make it.

Also, the word failure is not derogatory.  It's a state, not an assessment of someone's character.  Kids need to deal with failure, and if they're not reaching for a difficult goal, how will they?  I see kids that are taught to blame someone else for their failure.  If your kids create their goals (realistic, but difficult, with your help) and then fail to reach them, they have to understand what lead to that failure.

In teaching them about good goal setting, they will understand what success means, and they will build self esteem when they experience real success based on goals they created and were difficult to reach.

This is what I like about individual sports.  No teammates to blame.  It's you vs. you.

In an attempt to preserve our children's self esteem, I think we are doing the following:

1. Praising them regardless of achievement.  I'm not saying you should berate your kids (hockey dad style), but if they didn't meet their goals, help them to understand why and create a plan to keep going.
2. Setting goals and working to meet them is a foreign process.
3. Not teaching them resolve and determination.