Author Topic: Ford Fiesta Diesel NOT coming to North America.......  (Read 11386 times)

Offline rrocket

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Ford Fiesta Diesel NOT coming to North America.......
« on: September 08, 2008, 11:48:32 pm »
Well..there goes my interest in this car.  There's ZERO reason for me to even consider having a gas version of this.  The diesel would have kicked ass....and kicked the imports ass too! Imagine a "regular" car pounding the hybrids for fuel economy.  I bet they'd sell every single one.  But Ford doesn't think so. I guess I'll continue to drive Toyotas until Ford, GM or anyone can make something to compete with thier small car for quality and economy...Personally I think this is a mistake on Ford's part, and this decision may come back to haunt them..


ARTICLE:

If ever there was a car made for the times, this would seem to be it: a sporty subcompact that seats five, offers a navigation system, and gets a whopping 65 miles to the gallon. Oh yes, and the car is made by Ford Motor (F), known widely for lumbering gas hogs.

Ford's 2009 Fiesta ECOnetic goes on sale in November. But here's the catch: Despite the car's potential to transform Ford's image and help it compete with Toyota Motor (TM) and Honda Motor (HMC) in its home market, the company will sell the little fuel sipper only in Europe. "We know it's an awesome vehicle," says Ford America President Mark Fields. "But there are business reasons why we can't sell it in the U.S." The main one: The Fiesta ECOnetic runs on diesel.

Automakers such as Volkswagen (VLKAY) and Mercedes-Benz (DAI) have predicted for years that a technology called "clean diesel" would overcome many Americans' antipathy to a fuel still often thought of as the smelly stuff that powers tractor trailers. Diesel vehicles now hitting the market with pollution-fighting technology are as clean or cleaner than gasoline and at least 30% more fuel-efficient.

Yet while half of all cars sold in Europe last year ran on diesel, the U.S. market remains relatively unfriendly to the fuel. Taxes aimed at commercial trucks mean diesel costs anywhere from 40 cents to $1 more per gallon than gasoline. Add to this the success of the Toyota Prius, and you can see why only 3% of cars in the U.S. use diesel. "Americans see hybrids as the darling," says Global Insight auto analyst Philip Gott, "and diesel as old-tech."

None of this is stopping European and Japanese automakers, which are betting they can jump-start the U.S. market with new diesel models. Mercedes-Benz by next year will have three cars it markets as "BlueTec." Even Nissan (NSANY) and Honda, which long opposed building diesel cars in Europe, plan to introduce them in the U.S. in 2010. But Ford, whose Fiesta ECOnetic compares favorably with European diesels, can't make a business case for bringing the car to the U.S.
TOO PRICEY TO IMPORT

First of all, the engines are built in Britain, so labor costs are high. Plus the pound remains stronger than the greenback. At prevailing exchange rates, the Fiesta ECOnetic would sell for about $25,700 in the U.S. By contrast, the Prius typically goes for about $24,000. A $1,300 tax deduction available to buyers of new diesel cars could bring the price of the Fiesta to around $24,400. But Ford doesn't believe it could charge enough to make money on an imported ECOnetic.

Ford plans to make a gas-powered version of the Fiesta in Mexico for the U.S. So why not manufacture diesel engines there, too? Building a plant would cost at least $350 million at a time when Ford has been burning through more than $1 billion a month in cash reserves. Besides, the automaker would have to produce at least 350,000 engines a year to make such a venture profitable. "We just don't think North and South America would buy that many diesel cars," says Fields.

The question, of course, is whether the U.S. ever will embrace diesel fuel and allow automakers to achieve sufficient scale to make money on such vehicles. California certified VW and Mercedes diesel cars earlier this year, after a four-year ban. James N. Hall, of auto researcher 293 Analysts, says that bellwether state and the Northeast remain "hostile to diesel." But the risk to Ford is that the fuel takes off, and the carmaker finds itself playing catch-up—despite having a serious diesel contender in its arsenal.

« Last Edit: September 08, 2008, 11:51:30 pm by rrocket »
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Offline Dante

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Re: Ford Fiesta Diesel NOT coming to North America.......
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2008, 12:10:55 am »
Well..there goes my interest in this car.  There's ZERO reason for me to even consider having a gas version of this.  The diesel would have kicked ass....and kicked the imports ass too! Imagine a "regular" car pounding the hybrids for fuel economy.  I bet they'd sell every single one.  But Ford doesn't think so. I guess I'll continue to drive Toyotas until Ford, GM or anyone can make something to compete with thier small car for quality and economy...Personally I think this is a mistake on Ford's part, and this decision may come back to haunt them..


RR, I totally understand your disappointment for not getting the diesel, but on the other hand, from what I recall, the 1.6L gas engine gets similar fuel economy with the Yaris and Fit. As far as the quality goes, Yaris and Fit, while decent econoboxes, are not setting any standards and from what I read in the US and UK auto press, the Fiesta interior is quite high quality - e.g. soft touch materials which are nowhere to be found in Yaris or Fit.
I guess we should see the car before speculating, but I was just wondering.... you are not getting anything more from a Yaris compared to what Fiesta has to offer based on the info on-hand.

Offline rrocket

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Re: Ford Fiesta Diesel NOT coming to North America.......
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2008, 12:20:17 am »
^^^^My POS Echo gets 50MPG....US MPG...so I need something better to even remotely consider it.  And at 50MPG...that's either a Toyota Hybrid or possibly a Honda Hybrid....Or it could have been a Ford Fiesta.


But I DO know that a Yaris is more reliable than the Ford...although hopefully this could be a turn-around to reliable small DOMESTIC cars.  But let's be honest...the domestics haven't had ANYTHING to even remotely compete with the import econoboxes...in either fit, finish or economy...It's possible that this car could....so we'll wait and see.  But because of the lack of the diesel...it's just another econobox whereas with the diesel it could have been an AMAZING econobox.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 12:23:10 am by rrocket »

Offline Dante

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Re: Ford Fiesta Diesel NOT coming to North America.......
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2008, 12:59:39 am »
I understand your quest for best possible fuel economy, but think about what's currently available on the market in this segment (Eco is long gone...).

If you go by EPA estimates, the Yaris and Fit get 28-29/35/31 US MPG. I think it's fairly attainable for the Fiesta to get similar numbers so Fiesta can compete.

Fiesta's reliability is definitely unknown so it's hard to compare. Being a brand new model, expect to have some glitches for the first year or two. Even first year Toyotas have issues. Also, if you go by the same stats, Ford is gaining on the reliability front with some of their recent models. In Europe for instance, Ford has good resale value and reliability records from what I gather so this car should be seen, at least this is how I see it for now, as a departure from the old Ford we know in North America.

What you see upfront is the built quality, fit-and-finish, interior materials, switchgear, etc. which seems to be excellent in the Fiesta; you cannot really say the same about the present Yaris so Fiesta can compete again and even outclass Yaris.

You might know I'm not a Ford fanboy nor an import hater so please don't take my posts personal. I'm just trying to objectively compare the Fiesta against the cars that are perceived as the top of the class (Yaris and Fit).


Offline rrocket

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Re: Ford Fiesta Diesel NOT coming to North America.......
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2008, 01:29:43 am »
I'm not sure how the Ford will be for pricing though....Will it be able to compete?


As far as MPG..both the Fit and Yaris easily exceed their EPA estimates by a rather large margin (as does my Echo..same engine).  Just ask the owners here.

I'm hopeful the Ford is a new era in small cars for the domestics.  But their previous offerings have been so crap-tastic...I guess we'll just have to wait and see...

Offline johngenx

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Re: Ford Fiesta Diesel NOT coming to North America.......
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2008, 09:49:10 am »
It's not good enough that Ford matches the Yaris/Fit/Whatever.  They need to blow the competition out of the water.  That is the only way they will compel the Toyota loyalists to switch.

If I was shopping sub-compact and the Ford was "equal" to the Yaris, I'd probably play it safe and just get the Toyota.  However, a 3.xxL/100km model?  Now we're thinking about taking a chance on the Ford.

That is why they need the diesel here.  To be different and better.

Offline Thinking Out Loud

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Re: Ford Fiesta Diesel NOT coming to North America.......
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2008, 10:45:06 am »
 :iagree:

Ford needs to learn what made people give Hyundai a chance - more for less (or different).

Any auto manufacturer that chases where the competition is TODAY is a guaranteed failure for a car you intend to launch 12-18 months from now. 

With the lead time for development being what it is, Toyota already has a Yaris likely in CADCAM that's run laps around a Fit's mpg TODAY ...... the Fiesta will arrive just in time to be a great car for 2 years ago when the Yaris shows up in it's new guise.

When your backs' against the wall, it's time to fight different 'cause what you've been doing hasn't worked. 

Ford Fiesta Diesel would have been it.....Ford's happy being 'that other movie' on a July 1st weekend against a Wil Smith action flick that a Yaris would be.

FORD - 'Fraid Of Radical Decisions'



« Last Edit: September 09, 2008, 10:47:50 am by Thinking Out Loud »
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Offline johngenx

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Re: Ford Fiesta Diesel NOT coming to North America.......
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2008, 12:40:55 pm »
That's it.  Ford needs to leapfrog the competition, and then try to stay out ahead.  How?  Innovative drivelines with radically lower fuel consumption.  Maybe...

A Fiesta Diesel.

A Focus AWD Diesel.  "Say hello to my little friend" to Subaru AND Toyota and Honda!

If they need to amortize the $350M (a weeks cash flow fer chrissakes) then stick that dame diesel engine in everything with wheels.  Mercedes understands this, as does VW.

Not long ago, MB diesel products were priced lower than the gas versions.  They mass-produced the diesel engine and it went into everything.  The MB 606 series diesel was sold in C-Class cars (not here, but most places), E-Class cars, S-Class cars, ML's and the Sprinter van.  Everything!

The next trick is to get the engine into higher volumes by not only dropping it into loaded models.  Okay, I understand that they want to recoup the higher production cost by selling me leather, etc.  However, that is "first quarter" thinking.  Diesel nuts are all about low cost operating.  Decontent the cars and add the diesel.

If the next group of Ford cars isn't crushing the competition, Ford is done for.  They need to overcome the stigma they've built up over the last 30 years.

Offline TopGun

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Re: Ford Fiesta Diesel NOT coming to North America.......
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2008, 12:54:43 pm »
Thinking Out Loud nailed it IMHO...and well echoed by johngenx...How Mark Fields has kept his job as NA Pres, I'll never know.

Additionally, these days, where "em-pee-gee" resonates with the common folk, you can grab headlines, and a darn-nice halo without having to sell many of them.

Offline Dante

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Re: Ford Fiesta Diesel NOT coming to North America.......
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2008, 01:05:34 pm »
I'm not sure how the Ford will be for pricing though....Will it be able to compete?


As far as MPG..both the Fit and Yaris easily exceed their EPA estimates by a rather large margin (as does my Echo..same engine).  Just ask the owners here.

I'm hopeful the Ford is a new era in small cars for the domestics.  But their previous offerings have been so crap-tastic...I guess we'll just have to wait and see...


RR, I completely agree that Ford has to come up with the whole package and be better overall than the Yaris and Fit.  The fuel efficiency is just one piece of the puzzle. The price is another one and there are more. Where the Fiesta (Euro) is clearly ahead in my eyes is the design. Also, the driving dynamics and quality are another two aspects where the Fiesta (Euro) seems to have the edge based on the media reports.

The new EPA estimates are on the conservative side for all vehicles, not only for Yaris and Fit. I get significantly better fuel economy with my Outlander than the EPA says. However, the EPA is a relative way to compare FE. For instance, I believe that a RAV4 V6 would get slightly better FE than my Outlander all being equal.
If Fiesta let's say gets similar FE numbers as the Yaris and Fit according to EPA, I would say it's good enough for me.

Sure, a new Yaris is due by the time the Fiesta arrives on our shores or shortly after so this is a question mark, but the new Fit is out already and the Fiesta (Euro) is ahead in my books so far.

I hope Toyota can build a nicer Yaris and I agree, everything being equal, I would go with Toyota. However, I highly doubt that Toyota would design an exciting car.

Indeed, we'll wait and see.... Luckily, as it stands right now, I have time to wait for the new gen cars.

I guess my point is that it’s too early to discount the Fiesta just because it's not going to have the diesel or because Ford used to make crappy cars in the past (and even today IMO).

Offline tpl

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Re: Ford Fiesta Diesel NOT coming to North America.......
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2008, 03:40:51 pm »
From Reuters>

 WINNIPEG, Manitoba (Reuters) - Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper promised on Tuesday to slash a tax on diesel fuel if reelected, taking direct aim at his opponent's proposed carbon tax early in the first week of an election campaign.
Harper, who heads the Conservative Party, which has governed since January 2006, pledged to cut in half a federal excise tax on diesel to 2 Canadian cents a liter (7 U.S. cents a U.S. gallon) from 4 Canadian cents over four years.
The plan would cost the government about C$600 million a year, Harper said during a campaign stop in Winnipeg.
He contrasted the tax cut with the Liberal Party's proposal for a carbon tax, which would increase the diesel tax by 7 Canadian cents a liter.

I am not sure this would cause Ford to change their mind, nor would it make much difference to any private car owner and I am not sure it is a good idea... but I guess the trucking industry will approve.
The most radical revolutionary will become a conservative the day after the revolution.

Offline gotak

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Re: Ford Fiesta Diesel NOT coming to North America.......
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2008, 03:53:58 pm »
Slashing taxes on fuel isn't the answer to the economy or the environment. Cutting taxes just means the oil companies can charge more with you still willing to pay. End result is moving the tax from public funds to private.

As for the whole diesel engine factory thing. Well lets see in the Rabbit they make the 2.5 liter engine in Mexico, ship it to Germany where they put it in the car, then ship it back here to sell it at a cost competitive to other cars of similar size and power. So what's the problem with say slightly expanding the British plant a bit (maybe hit the UK gov up for a bit of cash to do that, saying it'll add jobs) and shipping those engines over here and putting it into the cars here?

And if they complain about how they can't afford to run extra production line in NA to make the diesel, well there's a election here with everyone promising to keep jobs in the auto sector. Ask for some cash and try it.

Offline rrocket

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Re: Ford Fiesta Diesel NOT coming to North America.......
« Reply #12 on: September 09, 2008, 05:04:08 pm »





RR, I completely agree that Ford has to come up with the whole package and be better overall than the Yaris and Fit.  The fuel efficiency is just one piece of the puzzle. The price is another one and there are more. Where the Fiesta (Euro) is clearly ahead in my eyes is the design. Also, the driving dynamics and quality are another two aspects where the Fiesta (Euro) seems to have the edge based on the media reports.



As others have said, it's still NOT enough.  For example we can look at a car that competes head-on with the Civic and Corolla that has best in class interior quality/design, a great exterior design, and likely the best handling---The Mazda 3.  But despite those key elements (the same one's you point our in favor of the Fiesta) it's STILL not enough to pull many buyers away from Corolla or Civic.  Both of those cars easily outsell the Mazda3.  So if a Japanese competitor with the advantages you point out can't pull import buyers away from Honda or Toyota, how in the heck will a domestic be able to steal a prospective Toyota or Honda buyer?? Answer...they won't.

As other have said, it will take something special and unique...and a nice interior isn't enough...

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Re: Ford Fiesta Diesel NOT coming to North America.......
« Reply #13 on: September 09, 2008, 07:26:31 pm »
It's not good enough that Ford matches the Yaris/Fit/Whatever.  They need to blow the competition out of the water.  That is the only way they will compel the Toyota loyalists to switch.

If I was shopping sub-compact and the Ford was "equal" to the Yaris, I'd probably play it safe and just get the Toyota.  However, a 3.xxL/100km model?  Now we're thinking about taking a chance on the Ford.

That is why they need the diesel here.  To be different and better.

 :iagree:

OTOH, we need to understand that Ford's management in North America doesn't really care what they sell here nor whether they make money or loose money.
The reason is that, at the end of the day, they know they will be bailed out by the gov'ts (of USA and Canada), and that they can always blame all their woes on unions.
There is not an an ounce of incentive or desire on their part to be creative, imaginative or competitive.

It's just too bad that our tax money will be used to bail them out, and fatten their bonuses.
I suppose if I were in their shoes (and if I could get away with it) I'd do the same; why the hell should I bust by gut by being competitive, when I know someone will bail me out!

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: Ford Fiesta Diesel NOT coming to North America.......
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2008, 08:39:26 pm »
According to the Euro reviews, the Fiesta is much better dynamically, has a better interior, and better fit and finish than its competitors while matching their fuel economy numbers. Subjectively, I find it looks much better, at least in pictures. What's not to like?

In North America, just the leveling off in fuel prices has stabilized the sales of larger vehicles. If that holds for a year or two, large vehicles could be back in vogue, which would leave expensive diesel cars gathering dust on dealer lots. It's happened before. The Ranger, Escort, Tempo, various Lincolns and the F series were all offered with diesels (four cylinders from Mazda, six cylinder IIRC from BMW). Price of gas dropped and Ford was left trying to move cars that nobody wanted, and paying out contracts on motors they couldn't use. Americans still don't want diesel in any meaningful way. Why should Ford take the risk? How many people would seriously consider a $25k Fiesta?

A large reason the well regarded Mazda3 doesn't match the Corolla or Civic in sales might simply boil down to the number and quality of Mazda dealers. Ford has the numbers, if possibly not the quality to compete in that regard.

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Offline Dante

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Re: Ford Fiesta Diesel NOT coming to North America.......
« Reply #15 on: September 09, 2008, 11:12:38 pm »





RR, I completely agree that Ford has to come up with the whole package and be better overall than the Yaris and Fit.  The fuel efficiency is just one piece of the puzzle. The price is another one and there are more. Where the Fiesta (Euro) is clearly ahead in my eyes is the design. Also, the driving dynamics and quality are another two aspects where the Fiesta (Euro) seems to have the edge based on the media reports.



As others have said, it's still NOT enough.  For example we can look at a car that competes head-on with the Civic and Corolla that has best in class interior quality/design, a great exterior design, and likely the best handling---The Mazda 3.  But despite those key elements (the same one's you point our in favor of the Fiesta) it's STILL not enough to pull many buyers away from Corolla or Civic.  Both of those cars easily outsell the Mazda3.  So if a Japanese competitor with the advantages you point out can't pull import buyers away from Honda or Toyota, how in the heck will a domestic be able to steal a prospective Toyota or Honda buyer?? Answer...they won't.

As other have said, it will take something special and unique...and a nice interior isn't enough...


I don't think a car would be considered a success or the best in class only if it's the best selling car in the class. For instance, the Ford Escape has been the best selling compact SUV forever and by a large margin. Does it mean it's the best car in its class? I think most would agree it is not.

Mazda3 is a perfect example and I intended to use it as well as an argument for my point of view. It's not the best selling compact, but it sold very well during its lifecycle. I own one and I still think it's the best in class, despite the fact that it doesn't have the best fuel economy; I have the 2.3L engine and it's far from the best actually. It puts a smile on my face every time I look at it, sit in it or drive it and this is worth more than a few hundred bucks a year extra on fuel costs.

Being the best car in class has little to nothing to do with the sales numbers, resale value and other variable market perception factors. When you evaluate what's the best car in class you have to remove the brand biased.

IF Fiesta will preserve the design, interior quality, driving dynamics, fuel economy at par with the best in class, the right feature set, slightly cheaper than the similarly or lesser equipped Yaris and Fit and it proves to be reliable, I think it will be a sales success without being the best selling vehicle in class. This is exactly the same recipe Mazda used with Mazda3 and it turned out to be a success for them.

Like I said before, we need to wait and see the North American production version and its pricing before we can judge.

 

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Re: Ford Fiesta Diesel NOT coming to North America.......
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2008, 09:03:29 am »

"...Like I said before, we need to wait and see the North American production version and its pricing before we can judge..."

And, therein lies the rub, as they say.
Have you ever seen a Euro Ford sold in North America that wasn't ruined by the marketing people or by some engineer in Detroit who had nothing better to do?

I haven't.

Chances are, the new Fiesta will be given a "Buick suspension", behemoth bumpers (which will weigh as much as the rest of the car), a boot (because hatchbacks don't sell well in North America), and so on...

By the time Ford is finished changing the car to suit our suposed tastes, nobody will buy it; Ford will then say, "We told you these cars don't sell here".


Offline Dante

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Re: Ford Fiesta Diesel NOT coming to North America.......
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2008, 10:40:08 am »

"...Like I said before, we need to wait and see the North American production version and its pricing before we can judge..."

And, therein lies the rub, as they say.
Have you ever seen a Euro Ford sold in North America that wasn't ruined by the marketing people or by some engineer in Detroit who had nothing better to do?
I haven't.

Chances are, the new Fiesta will be given a "Buick suspension", behemoth bumpers (which will weigh as much as the rest of the car), a boot (because hatchbacks don't sell well in North America), and so on...

By the time Ford is finished changing the car to suit our suposed tastes, nobody will buy it; Ford will then say, "We told you these cars don't sell here".



No I haven't, and this is why there is a bold IF in my posts. However, there are some signals that this time around things will be different; hence my interest in the upcoming Ford models (Fiesta and Focus in particular).

For now, my arguments are based on the Euro models and I argue about using the assumption that Ford will screw-up as a sure thing before even seeing the North American version.

So far, based on the recent flood of production Fiesta (Euro) reviews (US and UK sources) it seems to me that the new Fiesta is a better car overall than Yaris and Fit.

Offline Ice

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Re: Ford Fiesta Diesel NOT coming to North America.......
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2008, 06:47:44 pm »
I just hope they don't screw up.  I hate when they excessively North Americanize a car thinking thats what we want here.  For some reason they seem to compete well in other markets, such as Europe, but they can't compete on their home turf because they somehow know better but they don't bother to actually compete.

The Fiesta looks awesome...if they bring it to North America essentially unchanged, slight bumper changes to match whatever they need here, slightly different seats to accommodate the public here, then we should be golden.  If they monkey around with the suspension allot and cheapen out on materials then it will bomb and the Fit and Yaris will continue to dominate.  It has to be better...

Its a shame no diesel but thats not surprising I suppose.

Offline rrocket

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Re: Ford Fiesta Diesel NOT coming to North America.......
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2008, 06:50:11 pm »

So far, based on the recent flood of production Fiesta (Euro) reviews (US and UK sources) it seems to me that the new Fiesta is a better car overall than Yaris and Fit.


It would seem so.  But I'm having doubt that Ford can sell the Fiesta here for what you can get a Yaris or Fit for.  Base on those are around $13K. 

The exterior design will not change much (if at all).  We are in the process of doing the headlight for the NA market and they look identical to the Euro ones..