Topic: CD Article: 2008 Ford Fusion SE four-cylinder

[Honda Owner]

I had a VW Golf that was made in Puebla Mexico that was a complete reliability nightmare. They were so bad the Germans had to stop production and retrain the workers. I guess that sort of prejudiced me.

when I go and sit in a car like a Honda Fit which is allot cheaper or even the new Malibu which has a similar price but a much better interior...this all falls flat.

The domestics are famous for cheaping out interiors. I will never understand why, either, because this is what the customer really sees most of the time. GM is finally cluing in but Ford and Chrysler still haven't. Take VW for example. They are not the most reliable cars but their owners love them because they handle well and have superb interiors.

When I bought my Fit, I also looked at the Saturn Astra. Nice car, drives really well, good fuel economy. But that grey plastic centre stack made me gag.

[gosteelerz]

I am not surprised that a poster preferred a 99 Accord to his '06 Fusion. Have a look at the reliability of Honda products and you will see a definite trend.  If you buy domestic, you will have unscheduled trips to the dealer for warranty work and recalls.

Worst reason ever to criticize the Ford Fusion, which is the most reliable currently-available midsize sedan according to Consumer Reports.  As for the refinement of the four-banger, blame Mazda.  It's their engine IIRC.

You're right about the faster depreciation of the Ford, but that has no basis in the Fusion's reliability.

Finally someone who deals in facts regarding reliability.  One person's bad experience does not represent the entire fleet.  Ford must have removed the balance shaft from the motor or something because there is no way the engine is any less smooth than say, a Civic based on my experience with the 2.3 MZR.  I can't speak for the Accord or the Camry's 4 pot as I have never driven them.

I would not bother with the 4 banger in this car as it is only a marginal improvement over the V6 in terms of fuel economy.

If these cars do depreciate rapidly, than that makes them a very good used car buy.

[Mitlov]

The domestics are famous for cheaping out interiors. I will never understand why, either, because this is what the customer really sees most of the time. GM is finally cluing in but Ford and Chrysler still haven't. Take VW for example. They are not the most reliable cars but their owners love them because they handle well and have superb interiors.

When I bought my Fit, I also looked at the Saturn Astra. Nice car, drives really well, good fuel economy. But that grey plastic centre stack made me gag.

You know that that entire interior, including the center stack, was designed by the German company Opel for the European market, right?  The Saturn Astra is just a rebadged Opel Astra, one of the best-selling cars in Europe.

While Opel is indeed owned by GM, I think calling Opel a "domestic" is really a stretch.

I had a VW Golf that was made in Puebla Mexico that was a complete reliability nightmare. They were so bad the Germans had to stop production and retrain the workers. I guess that sort of prejudiced me.

That's too bad.  However, relevance to this thread is about zero, because if there were assembly problems at Ford's Mexican plant, they would have surfaced by now.  You don't have assembly defects that lay dormant for more than three years before appearing.  Problems that only crop up after 5-10 years are design defects, not manufacturing defects.  And for three years now, the Ford Fusion has dominated CR reliability ratings.

[mmret]

I guess that sort of prejudiced me.

That's why you fail.

[smok]

relevance to this thread is about zero, because if there were assembly problems at Ford's Mexican plant, they would have surfaced by now.  You don't have assembly defects that lay dormant for more than three years before appearing.  Problems that only crop up after 5-10 years are design defects, not manufacturing defects.  And for three years now, the Ford Fusion has dominated CR reliability ratings.

You are right about the manufacturing/assembly vs design quality differentiation.  The latter is why Ford has low resale value.
As far as the Mexican quality, I remember reading about when the Focus 3/5 door was made in Mexico, same plant that now makes Fusion, and the 4 door and wagon were made in US, the quality of the mexican focus' was much better.  So as someone said, you can't make broad statements.

[Leviathan]

I had a VW Golf that was made in Puebla Mexico that was a complete reliability nightmare. They were so bad the Germans had to stop production and retrain the workers. I guess that sort of prejudiced me.

That sounds like a problem with VW and the plant managers not preparing the work force appropriately and not a "Mexico" thing.

[Eric Green]

This is just infuriating. I intentionally ordered/took delivery of a Mondeo rental when in Yurp earlier this year (it was not a money issues, as Mercs, Bimmers, etc. were alternatives). DAMMIT!!!- Ford CAN build an outstanding sedan with an I-4 and stick, but just can't seem to figure out that it should be importing cars, rather than designing them stateside.

The. Yurpean. Mondeo. Is. Clarkson-good. Let's hope that ex-Boeing Mullaly can kick some Ford a*, and get exemplary product into NA showrooms before the entire edifice craters.

[Honda Owner]

GM and Ford build some outstanding products in their European markets. I rented an Opel Corsa 1.3 litre turbo diesel last year and it was one of the best all around cars I have ever driven. I cannot for the life of me understand why both GM and Ford wasted so much money designing separate models for North America. Only their impending doom has caused them to bring in their vastly superior European models.

[Mitlov]

GM and Ford build some outstanding products in their European markets. I rented an Opel Corsa 1.3 litre turbo diesel last year and it was one of the best all around cars I have ever driven. I cannot for the life of me understand why both GM and Ford wasted so much money designing separate models for North America. Only their impending doom has caused them to bring in their vastly superior European models.

Not true.  They've tried this repeatedly before, with generally lackluster sales resulting.  Cadillac Catera was an Opel Omega.  The Ford Contour, Mercury Mystique, and Jaguar X-Type were all versions of the Ford Mondeo.  The 2004-2006 Pontiac GTO was the Australian Holden Monaro.  ALL of these cars flopped in the North American market.

It's also odd how you're praising how great Opels are just a few posts after saying that the Saturn Astra (which IS an Opel, inside and out) is an example of GM "cheaping out" the interior.  What's going on here?  Either you love the feel of Opels or you don't.  Is this an example of "the grass is always greener on the other side," or perhaps you not giving the Saturn Astra an open-minded examination?

[Thinking Out Loud]

I still think it would have made more sense to start clean and 'replace' Saturn with Opel in branding. 

Saturn's reputation isn't stellar (unlike Buick's repeated excellence in reliability ratings), and Opel is a recogized Eurobrand that has as terrific a following as many.

Would help with GM's plethora of sub-brands to boot.

[tpl]

GM and Ford build some outstanding products in their European markets. I rented an Opel Corsa 1.3 litre turbo diesel last year and it was one of the best all around cars I have ever driven. I cannot for the life of me understand why both GM and Ford wasted so much money designing separate models for North America. Only their impending doom has caused them to bring in their vastly superior European models.

Not true.  They've tried this repeatedly before, with generally lackluster sales resulting.  Cadillac Catera was an Opel Omega.  The Ford Contour, Mercury Mystique, and Jaguar X-Type were all versions of the Ford Mondeo.  The 2004-2006 Pontiac GTO was the Australian Holden Monaro.  ALL of these cars flopped in the North American market.

...

I think that your argument is flawed with the word "versions" . To my knowledge the Detroit three have not brought in the Eu cars with ONLY the minimal legal requirements as changes. They are always massaged into something that sits uncomfortably half way across the Atlantic.  I may be wrong on the Jaguar here I admit.   
Now of course the Detroit three should sell cars in NA tailored to NA tastes and this I think is the problem.  People on car forums want unadulterated EU cars if they want them at all and thats the thing.... not many people want EU cars anyway... not enough for the Detroit 3's scale of operations.
Look at the whining ( from me and many others) about the lack of  Eu diesels, small cars, hatchbacks, hot hatches, mid sized eurosedans and so on.   
But then look at the whining ( not from me!) that the Astra only has one cupholder.  I have driven lots of Eu cars over the last 20+ years in EUland and I don't remember one festooned with cupholders... I am sure there was one but I don't remember it.

So there is nothing wrong with the Detroit three producing American cars and they'd probably be better off doing so now that the truck/SUV thing seems to be fading away. This is not to say that they could not learn from their EU arms about smaller cars with lots of interior space, good fuel economy etc. 


I think that the Japanese have got this right btw.  They make Americanized Japanese cars in NA and EU-ized Japanese cars in Euland and by the look/specifications of some of them  they are quite different cars.

[Mitlov]

I think that your argument is flawed with the word "versions" . To my knowledge the Detroit three have not brought in the Eu cars with ONLY the minimal legal requirements as changes. They are always massaged into something that sits uncomfortably half way across the Atlantic.  I may be wrong on the Jaguar here I admit.   
Now of course the Detroit three should sell cars in NA tailored to NA tastes and this I think is the problem.  People on car forums want unadulterated EU cars if they want them at all and thats the thing.... not many people want EU cars anyway... not enough for the Detroit 3's scale of operations.
Look at the whining ( from me and many others) about the lack of  Eu diesels, small cars, hatchbacks, hot hatches, mid sized eurosedans and so on.   
But then look at the whining ( not from me!) that the Astra only has one cupholder.  I have driven lots of Eu cars over the last 20+ years in EUland and I don't remember one festooned with cupholders... I am sure there was one but I don't remember it.

So there is nothing wrong with the Detroit three producing American cars and they'd probably be better off doing so now that the truck/SUV thing seems to be fading away. This is not to say that they could not learn from their EU arms about smaller cars with lots of interior space, good fuel economy etc. 


I think that the Japanese have got this right btw.  They make Americanized Japanese cars in NA and EU-ized Japanese cars in Euland and by the look/specifications of some of them  they are quite different cars.

I was merely responding to Honda Owner's erroneous statement that Ford and GM were only now starting to bring world cars to North America.  We can sit here and pick apart the individual details that made the Contour, Mystique, X-Type, GTO, and Catera fail, but the fact is these all were world-market cars in North America. 

I agree 100% that bringing European and Australian Ford and GM models, while good in many ways, is not the panacea that internet forum posters suggest it is.  These same posters always seem to forget what you pointed out--both the Honda Civic and the Honda Accord which you can buy over here are North-American-specific models too, different from the European Civic and European Accord.  A Honda fan criticizing Ford for selling North-American-specific models is quite an ironic situation, if you think about it.

[Dante]

Making fundamental changes to a world car does change its status of a "world" car since it becomes a different car and this is what GM and Ford did in the past.
I would say Astra is the first true "world" car that GM brought to North America.

Adding an armrest and proper cup holders for N/A wouldn't be a fundamental change by any means. I think this was just an overlooked detail on GM side. Luckily it's easy to correct and it has been corrected - GM OEM armrest w/cup holder is now available. It still has only one cup holder, but it's usable at least.

The major problem for the relatively low Astra sales is its price IMO. It's priced too close to its intended competition - Rabbit and Mazda3 Sport, but it has a big power train handicap.
However, in Canada at least, Astra sales are picking up, selling more than Rabbit AND City Golf together not to mention more than other compacts.

Importing Astra from Europe it was a patch solution, an afterthought. If GM would've planned ahead, they would've produced the identical car in North America mitigating the high production and import costs.

On the other hand, it seems like Ford is doing the right thing with the upcoming new models - design them as world cars (they all have two cup holders, bottle holders, etc.) and produce them locally. This is the right strategy IMO.

GM should do the same with the Opels - design them for the world consumption and build them locally. How hard is that? Importing the cars made in Europe and whining they don't sell because they are too expensive it's just lame. The sad part is that GM didn't get it and I have a feeling that will see bastardized Euro Opel models sold here (Astra, Insignia).

[Thinking Out Loud]

Ford did OK with the Fiesta when they brought it over in 1978-80ish until the Escort made it off the assembly line. 

Learned how to drive stick on one that was already 10 years old. 

You'd figure that - to carcrazy's point - that most assembly lines are likely similar regardless of geographical location, and with flex lines all the rage, that building any vehicle would be a question of duplicating whatever happens THERE over HERE is not a reinventing the wheel sort of thing. 

Am I correct in assuming that there is excess capacity in the Antwerp plant that they can potentially service another whole continent with these things?

If Brazil could recreate the Beetle with old tooling for 20+ years.....

[Concerned Commuter]

Most people remember the horrible Fords (or any north american car - well, remember the Hyundai Pony??) from the 80s and their poor quality.  Step forward - welcome to the survival mode Big Three.  I have been driving North American vehicles now for the past 10 years, and I am currently commuting 80 km one way with a Fusion SE - I4 5 speed manual.  Best commuter car I have had - better than the 99 Accord from durability, ride and efficiency perspective.  I now have 70,000 kms on it - and have not had any mechanical failures (except for the Continental brand tires that needed replacement after 40,000 kms).  My average fuel economy is 6.8 l/100kms with a best of 6.0 on a trip to Winnipeg and back (on one tankful from Regina).  My next car?  North American, resale value means nothing when the car has 200,000 kms on it.  I want the difference in the purchase price up front, and when I bought this car, it was this or a Civic (the Honda deal had an ego, no customer service, and also wanted $4,000 more for a smaller car with less options/features).

[Dante]

Am I correct in assuming that there is excess capacity in the Antwerp plant that they can potentially service another whole continent with these things?

Probably GM decided that is more expensive to retool a N/A plant to produce the Astra instead of selling a limited number (40.000/year IIRC) of them at a loss. Plus, the current Astra is a 2004 model so it's near the end of the cycle.

What concerns me is that I don't see any reports of GM retooling N/A plants to produce the next generation Insignia or Astra. This announcement should've been made by now, considering the Insignia is ready and the Astra will be soon too. I don't think GM is too strong in truly developing world models.

Ford is a different story as they've already announced the roadmap for the next couple of years with plans to build six world models in North America. From an Autoblog post from last week, it seems like the N/A version of the new Fiesta is “98%” of the Euro version. I hope that's true.

[Honda Owner]

Saturn Astra (which IS an Opel, inside and out) is an example of GM "cheaping out" the interior.

I realise the Astra is 100% European. However, for the price, the interior is, as you can say, crappy. Go compare it it a 2008 Rabbit, aka Golf, which has a very similar price.

The Corsa is a much cheaper car and I can tolerate a cheap interior if the price matches. That said, the Corsa is a new model and has a much nicer interior.

They make Americanized Japanese cars in NA and EU-ized Japanese cars in Euland and by the look/specifications of some of them  they are quite different cars.

This is where the Japanese have shown their brilliance at responding to what customers want. The Japanese home market models are completely different where anything over 1.5 litres and a certain width are taxed at gargantuan levels. However, Honda still brings us the Fit, which is identical to the Japanese model except for the VTEC motor, and that is not a bad thing IMHO.