Topic: Next gen Honda S2000

[xviper]

As nice as it would be to occasionally have a big V6 under there, I must agree that having a high revving 4 banger that screams is more intoxicating.  Those who spout off at the mouth about the S2000 being useless for having no torque down low, simply haven't got a clue how to drive such a car.  They have never heard of a "rolling clutch dump" or "clutch kick".  No one with an S2000 who successfully out drags and out runs cars with "big" torque ever drives the car at low rpm.  If you need more torque and more HP, you take the engine to revs where you have more torque and HP.
However, many who are so accustomed to driving their V6 and V8 barcaloungers think that all you need to do is mash the gas and go.  Then they meet up with a little high revving 4-banger with a driver who knows what he's doing and wonder why the thing is just inching ahead of them and in some cases, too far ahead to even read the licence plate.  That's when they start to make excuses for what they did wrong or some goofy thing that wasn't quite right with their cars.
The typical scenario is when some dumb, new S2000 owner comes along who can't drive stick, let alone know how to extract the performance out of it, races some fat cat with his barcalounger and loses.  The fat cat goes around bragging how that "little POS" is a torqueless wonder.  It was never the car.  It was the dumbass driver making it look bad for all S2000s.  It takes no finesse or skill to drive a barcalounger, just a fat foot.
Remember that episode of 5th Gear not long ago when one of the show's hosts went to drive an Indy car?  It took him over 1/2 dozen tries just to get the thing to move off without stalling.  Even after a couple of laps, the guy still could not extract the full performance out of it.  If any of those barcaloungers paired up with that driver and that race car, the race car would lose.  So, do we proclaim that all F1 type cars are torque-less wonders just because it was being driven by a clueless guy at the wheel?

BTW, rumour has it that an LS1 engine has been crammed into an S2000.  It drags like crazy but it's a total pig around the track.  The car is so unbalanced that it just won't drive worth a damn.  Also, a Florida outfit has dumped a Supra engine into the S2000.  Again, same thing.  People don't buy S2000s to drag race, at least not in general.  "Kids" can now afford these things and they do go out and drag race, but sad to say (meaning no disrespect to them) most "kids" don't know how to drive this car.

Tune that engine for a little more power, and Honda could easily trump the Miata and Solstice...

The current S2000 already "trumps" the Miata and it already can do what the Solstice does now, but without the blower.  Only GM guys think the Solstice is something great and wonderful.  They like to compare apples with oranges.  Put a blower on even a Miata and that Solstice is in the rear view.  Let's make the comparison fair, huh?

[xviper]

maybe honda can employ wing to install turbos.   

I think the lad has quite enough fun doing his supercharger.   
The current turbo kits out for the S has turned them into monters.  They'll even outdrag the supercharged ones.  They don't put out as much boost nor do they have any more peak HP but that boost starts down low.  The biggest problem comes in an auto-X or road course.  The tires can't keep up with the power and the car becomes easily unbalanced.  It takes even more finesse to drive a "blown" S.  In a straight line, a blown S just became closer to that barcalounger I spoke of before.  Mash the gas and go.

[Triple Bob]

The only part I don't agree with is #4.  The super high rpm four cylinder is so different than anything else.  Everyone has 3.5L V-6's and they're almost boring.  Keep the weight down, keep the engine a screamer, and make mine black over red, please...

(Colin Chapman, he the man...)

  + a small supercharger... 

[ArticSteve]

I wish they'd increase the leg room.

[Triple Bob]

I wish they'd increase the leg room.

If you're from Vancouver, you can fit six feet in the trunk!

[safristi]

  aahh footlose and fancy free AT LAST.................

[Jameel]

As nice as it would be to occasionally have a big V6 under there, I must agree that having a high revving 4 banger that screams is more intoxicating.  Those who spout off at the mouth about the S2000 being useless for having no torque down low, simply haven't got a clue how to drive such a car.  They have never heard of a "rolling clutch dump" or "clutch kick".  No one with an S2000 who successfully out drags and out runs cars with "big" torque ever drives the car at low rpm.  If you need more torque and more HP, you take the engine to revs where you have more torque and HP.
However, many who are so accustomed to driving their V6 and V8 barcaloungers think that all you need to do is mash the gas and go.  Then they meet up with a little high revving 4-banger with a driver who knows what he's doing and wonder why the thing is just inching ahead of them and in some cases, too far ahead to even read the licence plate.  That's when they start to make excuses for what they did wrong or some goofy thing that wasn't quite right with their cars.
The typical scenario is when some dumb, new S2000 owner comes along who can't drive stick, let alone know how to extract the performance out of it, races some fat cat with his barcalounger and loses.  The fat cat goes around bragging how that "little POS" is a torqueless wonder.  It was never the car.  It was the dumbass driver making it look bad for all S2000s.  It takes no finesse or skill to drive a barcalounger, just a fat foot.
Remember that episode of 5th Gear not long ago when one of the show's hosts went to drive an Indy car?  It took him over 1/2 dozen tries just to get the thing to move off without stalling.  Even after a couple of laps, the guy still could not extract the full performance out of it.  If any of those barcaloungers paired up with that driver and that race car, the race car would lose.  So, do we proclaim that all F1 type cars are torque-less wonders just because it was being driven by a clueless guy at the wheel?

BTW, rumour has it that an LS1 engine has been crammed into an S2000.  It drags like crazy but it's a total pig around the track.  The car is so unbalanced that it just won't drive worth a damn.  Also, a Florida outfit has dumped a Supra engine into the S2000.  Again, same thing.  People don't buy S2000s to drag race, at least not in general.  "Kids" can now afford these things and they do go out and drag race, but sad to say (meaning no disrespect to them) most "kids" don't know how to drive this car.

The only reason I didn't mention turbo or supercharging, because Honda doesn't believe in Forced Induction (FI). At least I can't recall any recent Honda/Acura car that had FI. Correct me if I'm wrong!  That's why I suggested a 6 cylinder, maybe an inline-6 or boxer-6 (keep the center of gravity low).

I don't dispute the S2000 is a great car with, great handling and an amazing transmission. And I for one have always loved the high-revving 4 banger. But after test driving it, I nailed the throttle in 1st gear and 2nd, I have to say I was a bit disappointed with the power delivery. And yes, I hit VTEC.
Even S2000 owners complain about lack of torque, that's why a lot of them do the vortech or comptech superchargers.
Of course cramming a Supra or LSx engine into the small S2000 will destroy it's handling. But if the car is designed from the ground up to take the 6cyl, the handling should be on par if not better than the current model.

Honestly I could care less about straight-line or 1/4mile times. But if Honda wants to compete in the market place, they have to realize this moto of, "less is more", just won't cut it. That's if they want to make a profit and sell cars in NA. I mean the MazdaSpeed3 has 263HP and 280ft-lbs of torque for god sake.

Forgot to mention, Honda should make a true coupe version of the S2000, like Porsche did with the Cayman.

Actually that was an episode of Top Gear, not fifth gear. Richard Hammond tries to drive a Renault F1 car. Great episode BTW!
Actually F1 cars don't have that "much" torque. If I remember correctly I think it's only 268 or 275 ft-lbs of torque. But it's almost pointless for an F1 car because they spend so much of their time in the upper 19,000RPM range. That's how they make 750 to 800HP.

Also, they should have tilt / telescoping steering wheel in the New S2000, for us taller people.

[Triple Bob]

They have never heard of a "rolling clutch dump" or "clutch kick".  No one with an S2000 who successfully out drags and out runs cars with "big" torque ever drives the car at low rpm.  If you need more torque and more HP, you take the engine to revs where you have more torque and HP.

Personally I don't think the S2000 is underpowered/undertorqued at all, but dumping the clutch at high revs all the time must get you through a few clutches?  Plus I don't think it's as satisfying as being completely "in gear" as it were..

[wing]

Actually dumping the clutch at 6000rpm doesn't hurt it at all.  But there is the potential to kill the differential.

Jameel, you should take a ride at the next auto-x and see how you like it with the supercharger

[wing]

Oh and Acura RDX is turbo

[Triple Bob]

Oh and Acura RDX is turbo

Ha ha, I knew someone would find one!

[xviper]

The only reason I didn't mention turbo or supercharging, because Honda doesn't believe in Forced Induction (FI). At least I can't recall any recent Honda/Acura car that had FI. Correct me if I'm wrong!  That's why I suggested a 6 cylinder, maybe an inline-6 or boxer-6 (keep the center of gravity low).

But after test driving it, I nailed the throttle in 1st gear and 2nd, I have to say I was a bit disappointed with the power delivery. And yes, I hit VTEC.
Even S2000 owners complain about lack of torque, that's why a lot of them do the vortech or comptech superchargers.

Honestly I could care less about straight-line or 1/4mile times. But if Honda wants to compete in the market place, they have to realize this moto of, "less is more", just won't cut it. That's if they want to make a profit and sell cars in NA. I mean the MazdaSpeed3 has 263HP and 280ft-lbs of torque for god sake.

Also, they should have tilt / telescoping steering wheel in the New S2000, for us taller people.

I think Wing covered the thing about Honda and F.I.

When I was talking about "finesse" when driving an S2000 and knowing how to drive one, you don't just "nail" the throttle.  That doesn't work and that's why so many people think the low end torque is inadequate.  Someone who knows how to drive it, will never just "nail" it.  That's the part where I talked about "clutch kick".  Drifters use this technique all the time.  If I'm going to race someone (not that I do, BTW), I wouldn't just NAIL it.  I would do a rolling clutch dump.  It does no harm to the clutch or the rear diff when done correctly.  I do them just for fun when the roads are safe to do so and I'm not racing anyone.  Why would I nail it at a point in the rev band when there's no torque.  No, I'm going to get it to where the torque is.  This is no different from getting an F1 car going, but on a smaller scale.  As for the superchargers, they don't do anything for the low end.  They, in fact, give it all to you at the high end.  It's final drive gearing (like my 4.44s) that take care of the low end.

I don't believe Honda made the S2000 to make a lot of money or to make a big profit anywhere.  They've got other cars that are their "bread and butter".  The S2000 is what it is and I don't believe Honda really cared if it competed with any particular car in the marketplace.  It's us consumers that think it should have to compete.

And yes, no tilt steering wheel keeps the tall people away, but again, I don't think Honda really cared about this, either.  I guess they thought there were enough "average" height people who would buy them all.

As far as "less is more" not cutting it, I wonder what Lotus was thinking with their Elise and Exige?     There are quite a few S2000 owners who actually think Honda put too much into it and they've been stripping stuff off.  To each his own.

[wing]

Supercharger still gives 25ft/lbs down low.  I use to not be able to spin my tires off the line unless I dumped at 5000rpm now I can just giv'er and they go like mad it is awesome

[Jameel]

Actually dumping the clutch at 6000rpm doesn't hurt it at all.  But there is the potential to kill the differential. Wink

Jameel, you should take a ride at the next auto-x and see how you like it with the supercharger

Actually I'm sure 240HP is more than adequate for an AutoX. Stock S2000s where killing my times last Saturday, so I don't think you need much HP for an AutoX. In fact the guy with the fast white Miata (he got the FTD), told me he turned down his boost, which gave him the fastest time on the last run. So a lot of HP might be overkill in an AutoX session.

Unfortunately I may not be able to attend the next AutoX, have a wedding to go to :-(. But I'll take you up on that at the AutoX after that. I have to warn you, I'm 210lbs, so that might hurt your power-to-weight ratio. hahahah...

I think Wing covered the thing about Honda and F.I.

When I was talking about "finesse" when driving an S2000 and knowing how to drive one, you don't just "nail" the throttle.  That doesn't work and that's why so many people think the low end torque is inadequate.  Someone who knows how to drive it, will never just "nail" it.  That's the part where I talked about "clutch kick".  Drifters use this technique all the time.  If I'm going to race someone (not that I do, BTW), I wouldn't just NAIL it.  I would do a rolling clutch dump.  It does no harm to the clutch or the rear diff when done correctly.  I do them just for fun when the roads are safe to do so and I'm not racing anyone.  Why would I nail it at a point in the rev band when there's no torque.  No, I'm going to get it to where the torque is.  This is no different from getting an F1 car going, but on a smaller scale.  As for the superchargers, they don't do anything for the low end.  They, in fact, give it all to you at the high end.  It's final drive gearing (like my 4.44s) that take care of the low end.

I don't believe Honda made the S2000 to make a lot of money or to make a big profit anywhere.  They've got other cars that are their "bread and butter".  The S2000 is what it is and I don't believe Honda really cared if it competed with any particular car in the marketplace.  It's us consumers that think it should have to compete.

And yes, no tilt steering wheel keeps the tall people away, but again, I don't think Honda really cared about this, either.  I guess they thought there were enough "average" height people who would buy them all.

As far as "less is more" not cutting it, I wonder what Lotus was thinking with their Elise and Exige?     There are quite a few S2000 owners who actually think Honda put too much into it and they've been stripping stuff off.  To each his own.

When you say "clutch kick" are you talking about pushing the clutch-in, revving the engine to get the RPMs up and then dumping the clutch? If so, do you really want to be doing that all the time you are "racing". Maybe I'm getting lazy in my old age.

Really, superchargers don't give you low-end torque. I thought that was the entire point of the supercharger to give you instant power (HP/torque), unlike a turbocharger which has to build boost.

Okay I was unaware the RDX is turbocharged. I guess Honda is changing it's philosophy regarding FI. If that's the case then a 4 cyl with a turbo / supercharger would be perfect for the new S2000.

What I mean less is more, I'm not talking about weight, I'm talking about HP/torque. 

I love the Elise/Exige it's my dream car. Hopefully I'll get one later on.
Even Lotus realized the Elise was underpowered, that's why they came out with the ExigeS. Now they have the supercharged Elise and they've further bumped the HP and torque on the new ExigeS-240. This is the right way to keep your product fresh and current. I find honda tends to stay with the same formula for a long time when it comes to their super/sports cars.

Honda needs to upgrade/update their cars. I argue the NSX, it was Honda who made it uncompetitive in the market place. Who's going to pay $140,000 for 290HP/224ft-lbs car? When the competition has 400+ V8s and Turbo 6s?!

Why are you hating on tall people. 

[wing]

Turbo's have torque lower in the RPM range, they build and then BAM hit hard.  Even though DaveT (white miata) was running low boost you do realize he runs like 300hp in a car that weights 2000lbs haha, so he probabaly cranked it down to 200hp or something, plus he had brand spanking new hoosiers (Stickers and all).

Supercharger, runs off the crank pulley on the engine, so the faster it turns the more boost you get.  You don't get all your boost until max RPM.

There is still more power down low it just isn't dramatic.  I have shorter gears as well so that helps down low.

WIth the S/C I noticed it on the fast course we did the week before last in the slalom, I would just get to max RPM and BOOM I would take off like a rocket ship.

Should kick ass on the track, you should come to shannonville Saturday!

[johngenx]

I hope that Honda radically improves the S2000 AND drops the price, killing the resale of the previous cars.  I'd love one!  My Dad's girlfriend has one, and I've had the joy of wheel-time with it, and they are amazing cars.

Of course, my wife points out that I already have two, two-seaters on the go...

[Jameel]

Turbo's have torque lower in the RPM range, they build and then BAM hit hard.  Even though DaveT (white miata) was running low boost you do realize he runs like 300hp in a car that weights 2000lbs haha, so he probabaly cranked it down to 200hp or something, plus he had brand spanking new hoosiers (Stickers and all).

Supercharger, runs off the crank pulley on the engine, so the faster it turns the more boost you get.  You don't get all your boost until max RPM.

There is still more power down low it just isn't dramatic.  I have shorter gears as well so that helps down low.

WIth the S/C I noticed it on the fast course we did the week before last in the slalom, I would just get to max RPM and BOOM I would take off like a rocket ship.

Should kick ass on the track, you should come to shannonville Saturday!

Yah DaveT told me he was dynoing around 270 RWHP.

Yah the turbo just hits, where as a Supercharger gives a more linear power/torque curve.

I really want to go, and I almost called the organizer at Touge.ca, but I keep having images of me spinning out and hitting a barrier or something. I'm sure the likely hood is slim and I could restrain myself (I hope), but I think I'll wait until next year, to attend any Lapping days. I have to wait until the novelty wears off a little. ;-)

[wing]

There are no barriers there.

Why not tag along for a ride, get a taste of the track with no worries.  

I am taking the truck of course so space is not an issue haha.

[xviper]

When you say "clutch kick" are you talking about pushing the clutch-in, revving the engine to get the RPMs up and then dumping the clutch? If so, do you really want to be doing that all the time you are "racing". Maybe I'm getting lazy in my old age.

Why are you hating on tall people. 

I don't street race at all.  It's just a technique for instant "get up and go" while on the roll.  It's a really simple technique.  If you are going to drag someone from a roll, you are naturally going to mash the gas anyway.  Well, at the same instant you mash the gas, you push the clutch in just long enough for the revs to climb (you may not even need to push it to the floor) into the power band, then you just let it go.  It takes but a small fraction of a second and the get up and go more than makes up for the momentary hesitation.  And you wouldn't do it all the time when you race.  You only need to do it at the beginning.  And anyone who is fool enough to race back to back to back without giving the car a bit of cool down, deserves to blow his car up.

Tall people just gives me a pain in the neck.

[mmret]

There's a bit too much Audi in that snout.