Topic: Volt may not become the 1st big production EV, thought of as just another hybrid

[EV Dan]

"It seems our favorite media darling, the Chevy Volt, will have  bit of competition when it comes time for it’s eventual release in 2010. Though we’re not sure if it will make it to the US (like the Smart Car EV), we do know that Mitsubishi’s iMiev will make it to market a year earlier than the Volt and be priced lower.

The iMiev, which we start hearing about earlier in the year, has already been slated by Mitsubishi for commercial sale in Japan in 2009, a full year before the Volt is intended to hit US shores. There are also unconfirmed rumors that the iMiev may also make it to the US after a run of a few years in Japan. However, what’s really interesting about the iMiev right now is that Mitsubishi has just released a price figure of what $37,496 US, which is about $2,500less than we often hear talked about as the price point for the Chevy Volt.

Despite the similarities in pricing and release date, the two cars are very different beasts. The iMiev is based on a current Kei-car produced by Mistubishi for Japan, and has a 47kW electric motor powered by a 330-volt lithium ion battery pack. The car will have a top speed of 80 mph and an all electric range of about 100 miles. Charging will take place via a normal power outlet and should take about 14 hours to completely charge the battery, though there is all a 220V charge option, which only takes 7 hours.

On the other hand, the Volt will feature a sportier 120kW motor and 100+ mph top speed, but will only have an electric range of 20 or 40 miles (depending on the speculation and model selection), after which is will switch over to your standard dinosaur burning engine like in most cars these days. Chevy claims that most people never drive over 40 miles in a day, but I’m sure these Volts will be burning enough fossil fuels that calling them “electric cars” will leave a bitter taste in some peoples’ mouths. I think series hybrid or plug-in hybrid is much more appropriate."

http://www.ecomodder.com/blog/2008/07/13/mistubishis-electric-car-will-be-released-in-2009-for-37500/

Suddenly it seems silly GM decided to bet their a$$ on a large heavy EV(?) with a small battery and very limited range, since it will have to haul a generator plus a gas tank and all the emission components. To have Volt is good for competition but I dont see how they will sell any if Mitsu brings the Miev the same year.
Just my two cents.

[Mitlov]

Suddenly it seems silly GM decided to bet their a$$ on a large heavy EV(?)

Large?  The Volt is what North Americans refer to as a "compact car."  Isn't the iMiev a kei-car?  As in, slightly larger than a Smart Fortwo but smaller than a North American "subcompact"?  North Americans are not going to start rejecting "compact" cars as too big any time in the near future...regardless of how high gas prices get.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

- GM was the first major manufacturer to produce a modern electric car, the EV-1 from 1996 to 1999.

- To my knowledge, they have always claimed that it (the Volt) was a plug-in hybrid.

- The Volt and IMiev are mangoes and molasses.

[Mitlov]

- GM was the first major manufacturer to produce a modern electric car, the EV-1 from 1996 to 1999.

- To my knowledge, they have always claimed that it (the Volt) was a plug-in hybrid.

- The Volt and IMiev are mangoes and molasses.

I disagree.  In a plug-in hybrid, the internal combustion engine powers the wheels, as does the electric motor.  In the Volt Concept, though, the gas engine was actually just a generator that recharged the batteries.  It doesn't actually power the wheels at all.  The electric motor is the only direct source of locomotion.

Basically, the Volt is an electric car with a gas-powered electric generator in the trunk.

[sirAQUAMAN64]

While Mitsu has a noteworthy achievement, I think limited releasing in Japan has advantages from a geography standpoint that cannot be applied to the entirety of North America where we have more diverse climate and driving habbits which require additional battery & technology testing, which takes time.

I'm not sold on the concept of the Volt. But I hope they get right - and reliable - what they set-out to do. To me seems a bit of a waste of resources and big hoopla over something that will be obsolete within a few years.

Mitlov (or anyone else), are there efficiency advantages to having the electric motor powering the wheels versus the engine itself?

[Snowman]

100 miles as a daily range will require far too much planning for the average commuting person to manage.

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Just saying what they claimed, though Wiki says they have adjusted their terminology lately:

This general layout is considered a plug-in series hybrid design since mechanical power initially drives the generator, which in turn charges the battery pack. Power is then drained from the batteries to run the electrical motors which move the vehicle...

GM has decided on a new descriptive terminology distinct from calling it a hybrid. They are calling the Volt an E-REV, for "extended-range electric vehicle". [22] This is in part justified since there is no mechanical linkage between the petrol engine and the wheels.

[EV Dan]

From the videos I've seen Volt seems to be a size of Camry and iMiev looks similar to a Smart, in size anyway.
What I mean to say here is Mitsu may have struck gold building the first production EV upon the existing model (cost benefits) while reducing weight and power requirements and thus achieving much higher mileage from a given battery capacity.

[Mitlov]

Mitlov (or anyone else), are there efficiency advantages to having the electric motor powering the wheels versus the engine itself?

The theory is that it allows the generator to run at the optimal RPM for efficiency all the time, instead of spending a lot of time running slower than peak efficiency (idling, cruising, braking), and a lot of time running faster than peak efficiency (starting from a stop, accelerating).  It also saves on mechanical complexity (which adds both weight and price) by not having to have the parallel setups you see in the Prius, Escape hybrid, etc.

However, from a devil's advocate point of view, you've now got an extra stage in the process, which allows for more losses along the way (chemical energy to electrical energy to kinetic energy, instead of chemical energy to kinetic energy). 

[sirAQUAMAN64]

Mitlov (or anyone else), are there efficiency advantages to having the electric motor powering the wheels versus the engine itself?

The theory is that it allows the generator to run at the optimal RPM for efficiency all the time, instead of spending a lot of time running slower than peak efficiency (idling, cruising, braking), and a lot of time running faster than peak efficiency (starting from a stop, accelerating). 

However, from a devil's advocate point of view, you've now got an extra stage in the process, which allows for more losses along the way (chemical energy to electrical energy to kinetic energy, instead of chemical energy to kinetic energy). 

My mind was in the latter and figured electrics powering the wheels would result in less energy loss, but hadn't even thought about the former. Should result in lightning quick response to driver input.

[Mitlov]

From the videos I've seen Volt seems to be a size of Camry and iMiev looks similar to a Smart, in size anyway.
What I mean to say here is Mitsu may have struck gold building the first production EV upon the existing model (cost benefits) while reducing weight and power requirements and thus achieving much higher mileage from a given battery capacity.

First? 

2007 Smart Fortwo electric vehicle.  And here's the Fifth Gear shootout between the gas Fortwo and the electric Fortwo.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yn1dqK4h0PI

Sure, it's not on sale in North America, but the iMiev isn't going to be either for a few more years, according to your article.

[EV Dan]

The idea is not new. I recall BELAZ trucks had electric drive train as two independent motors at the rear wheels. They claimed it made the truck easier to build and maintain.   

[Mitlov]

As for size, the Volt is about 170 inches long, from what I've googled.  The Corolla is 178 inches long, and the Camry is 189 inches long.  The Yaris sedan is 169.3 inches long.

[PJungnitsch]

From what I understand the production Volt won't look like the concept at all. As well as being FWD, vs the cool RWD look of the concept, the shape will be totally different as the concept's exterior was not aerodynamic:

The production version of the Chevrolet Volt won’t look like the popular concept by the same name, General Motors Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said during a dinner event with members of the press yesterday evening.GM had hoped to keep the Volt’s exterior true to the concept, but wind tunnel tests proved the design was anything but aerodynamic — an essential characteristic for a vehicle that focus on efficiency. Lutz characterized the wind tunnel tests as a “cruel disappointment.” He joked engineers could have probably “put it in the wind tunnel backwards” and got less wind resistance.

http://www.theautoshop.com/main/blog/

[EV Dan]

As for size, the Volt is about 170 inches long, from what I've googled.  The Corolla is 178 inches long, and the Camry is 189 inches long.  The Yaris sedan is 169.3 inches long.

Thats within a reason.

The question is who will get the early adopter. So there is ER-EV (Volt) which relies on the on-board generator, Nissan|Renault + project better place who plan to invest in charging station infrastructure and lease out batteries and finally iMiev, Subaru, Th!nk who plan on building a car for the masses hoping people can do the math and see that the initial price premium will be overpowered by gas savings.
Its interesting to see which scheme will work best.

[EV Dan]

From what I understand the production Volt won't look like the concept at all. As well as being FWD, vs the cool RWD look of the concept, the shape will be totally different as the concept's exterior was not aerodynamic:

The production version of the Chevrolet Volt won’t look like the popular concept by the same name, General Motors Vice Chairman Bob Lutz said during a dinner event with members of the press yesterday evening.GM had hoped to keep the Volt’s exterior true to the concept, but wind tunnel tests proved the design was anything but aerodynamic — an essential characteristic for a vehicle that focus on efficiency. Lutz characterized the wind tunnel tests as a “cruel disappointment.” He joked engineers could have probably “put it in the wind tunnel backwards” and got less wind resistance.

http://www.theautoshop.com/main/blog/

..so they will use the old Malibu mule..why fix smth that works? 

[PJungnitsch]

..so they will use the old Malibu mule...

Not too far fetched. According to Motortrend the Volt will be a compact five-door hatch based on the platform of the next Cobalt, the Cruze.

Now GM is stating they might use the same 1.4L turbo engine that is going into the Cruze. After all the fuss the Volt might end up to be not much more exciting then the next Cobalt with a big battery pack stuffed somewhere.

http://gm-volt.com/2008/07/20/gm-ceo-confirms-4-cylinder-14-l-engine-being-considered-for-the-volts-range-extender/

[johngenx]

160km daily range?  We could easily live with that for one of our cars.  Most people I know could.

[EV Dan]

160km daily range?  We could easily live with that for one of our cars.  Most people I know could.

And lets not forget if ppl can recharge EVs at work it becomes 160k one way; translation- not too shabby.

[rrocket]

Now GM is stating they might use the same 1.4L turbo engine that is going into the Cruze. After all the fuss the Volt might end up to be not much more exciting then the next Cobalt with a big battery pack stuffed somewhere.

I don't have a problem with that....just not for $40,000.....