Topic: So many GM brands.....

[Sir Osis of Liver]

Sorry, wouldn't want any evidence to burst your bubble.

It wasn't just the trannys, it was electrical, interior trim, something called body integrity and exterior trim issues. And it wasn't just one year it is a trend over the last few. The people who read CR are some of Toyotas biggest fans, when they report problems, you can better believe there are problems.

Lets not forget the 800,000 Tacomas Toyota is in the process of buying back due to rusted out frames.

I'm guessing, but it seems to me that the pressure from the Koreans is forcing Toyota to remove some of the expensive stuff to maintain profit levels, much like the big three did when the Japanese showed up.

I do know that at least up until 1989, the Camry had to have the tank dropped in order to get to the fuel pump. Lots of other Japanese cars were the same.

[zapplez]

Just happen to have my Consumers Reports April 08 issue
 

What evidence do you have that either vehicle is inherently more reliable though? Besides anecdotes.
I Don't have any .

Oh well, as long as you enjoy your import. I prefer paying for a much cheaper car, with more horsepower, space, style, and much cheaper parts.

Good drivin' too ya.

edit: Yes, there was a time where Toyota/Honda was #1. Unquestionably;but those days are gone. Lexus of course, pays amazing detail to their models, but there are Toyota failures just like their are GM failures. Nowadays GM has many models which are better than average reliability. Why do more companies with better products scare you? Competition is good. It should make Toyota try harder, when they have been slipping lately. Don't worry, your stocks will still pay well. The Prius has become a powerful status symbol.

[rrocket]

I do know that at least up until 1989, the Camry had to have the tank dropped in order to get to the fuel pump. Lots of other Japanese cars were the same.

That was 20 years ago....LOL,.......My 94 Supra TT has the easy, drop in fuel pump...

[barrie1]

Its unfortunate some folks just can't be told or see the truth when its in front of them about any product because they think they know it all. No Magazine of any kind is correct either as they know it all. Toyota never has any recalls ever according to Steve yet thousands of folks report all these very serious problems. I'll take a Buick anyday over the majority of vehicles on the road with the exception of a Caddi. THey are not perfect but awful darn close to it and way abouve the average Toyota for sure which has already proven out.  Anybody who knows how to read knows this but then there is others who don't bother too as they know it all already in their minds.  

[Trainman]

I do know that at least up until 1989, the Camry had to have the tank dropped in order to get to the fuel pump. Lots of other Japanese cars were the same.

That was 20 years ago....LOL,.......My 94 Supra TT has the easy, drop in fuel pump...

My wife's Chevy Corsica also had to have the tank dropped.  Don't ask how I know   

[rrocket]

Comparison between Lucerne  and ES350 from JD Power, FWIW....looks like the ES scores higher...


http://www.jdpower.com/autos/Buick/Lucerne/2007/Sedan/ratings

http://www.jdpower.com/autos/Lexus/ES/2008/Sedan/ratings

[ArticSteve]

Sorry, wouldn't want any evidence to burst your bubble.
  
It wasn't just the trannys, it was electrical, interior trim, something called body integrity and exterior trim issues. And it wasn't just one year it is a trend over the last few. The people who read CR are some of Toyotas biggest fans, when they report problems, you can better believe there are problems.

Lets not forget the 800,000 Tacomas Toyota is in the process of buying back due to rusted out frames.

I'm guessing, but it seems to me that the pressure from the Koreans is forcing Toyota to remove some of the expensive stuff to maintain profit levels, much like the big three did when the Japanese showed up.

I do know that at least up until 1989, the Camry had to have the tank dropped in order to get to the fuel pump. Lots of other Japanese cars were the same.

Sorry, wouldn't want any evidence to burst your bubble.

Real evidence is the market place and when the market place devalues a one year old Buick 50% in one model year ya know that car sucks.  No matter what a toaster mag says.  No offense to owners is intended.  

It wasn't just the trannys, it was electrical, interior trim, something called body integrity and exterior trim issues. And it wasn't just one year it is a trend over the last few. The people who read CR are some of Toyotas biggest fans, when they report problems, you can better believe there are problems.

That's just crap.  Look at the US sales.

Lets not forget the 800,000 Tacomas Toyota is in the process of buying back due to rusted out frames.

 2% in Canada have been bought back so far and the numbers are dwindling. The vast majority are repaired.

I'm guessing, but it seems to me that the pressure from the Koreans is forcing Toyota to remove some of the expensive stuff to maintain profit levels, much like the big three did when the Japanese showed up.

Your guessing.  As of April 2008, 30K Sonotas sat outside the factory in Alabama not wanted by dealers.  Hyundai and Kia no threat to Toyota and Honda sales.  There taking domestic customers who demand 0% financing much like GM.  Continuous 0% financing is a terrible trap to fall into for a manufacturer.

I do know that at least up until 1989, the Camry had to have the tank dropped in order to get to the fuel pump. Lots of other Japanese cars were the same

Well most likely the gas tank rotted out before the fuel pump died.

[zapplez]

Sorry, wouldn't want any evidence to burst your bubble.
 
It wasn't just the trannys, it was electrical, interior trim, something called body integrity and exterior trim issues. And it wasn't just one year it is a trend over the last few. The people who read CR are some of Toyotas biggest fans, when they report problems, you can better believe there are problems.

Lets not forget the 800,000 Tacomas Toyota is in the process of buying back due to rusted out frames.

I'm guessing, but it seems to me that the pressure from the Koreans is forcing Toyota to remove some of the expensive stuff to maintain profit levels, much like the big three did when the Japanese showed up.

I do know that at least up until 1989, the Camry had to have the tank dropped in order to get to the fuel pump. Lots of other Japanese cars were the same.

Sorry, wouldn't want any evidence to burst your bubble.

Real evidence is the market place and when the market place devalues a one year old Buick 50% in one model year ya know that car sucks.  No matter what a toaster mag says.  No offense to owners is intended. 

It wasn't just the trannys, it was electrical, interior trim, something called body integrity and exterior trim issues. And it wasn't just one year it is a trend over the last few. The people who read CR are some of Toyotas biggest fans, when they report problems, you can better believe there are problems.

That's just crap.  Look at the US sales.

Lets not forget the 800,000 Tacomas Toyota is in the process of buying back due to rusted out frames.

 2% in Canada have been bought back so far and the numbers are dwindling. The vast majority are repaired.

I'm guessing, but it seems to me that the pressure from the Koreans is forcing Toyota to remove some of the expensive stuff to maintain profit levels, much like the big three did when the Japanese showed up.

Your guessing.  As of April 2008, 30K Sonotas sat outside the factory in Alabama not wanted by dealers.  Hyundai and Kia no threat to Toyota and Honda sales.  There taking domestic customers who demand 0% financing much like GM.  Continuous 0% financing is a terrible trap to fall into for a manufacturer.

I do know that at least up until 1989, the Camry had to have the tank dropped in order to get to the fuel pump. Lots of other Japanese cars were the same

Well most likely the gas tank rotted out before the fuel pump died.

You are backpedaling quite a bit Steve. Sales = Quality? So the Ford F-150 has been the best vehicle in the world for the past several years?

Depreciation = lack of quality? So Audi's and Mercedes are garbage?

You are losing it.

[ArticSteve]

You are losing it.

You're sounding very familar.   

[rrocket]

Is that Barrie's long lost brother?   

[Mitlov]

It wasn't just the trannys, it was electrical, interior trim, something called body integrity and exterior trim issues. And it wasn't just one year it is a trend over the last few. The people who read CR are some of Toyotas biggest fans, when they report problems, you can better believe there are problems.

That's just crap.  Look at the US sales.

What?  Sales numbers contradict reliability ratings?  By that reasoning, the F-150 has been the most reliable vehicle in the United States for about three decades!

EDIT:  Somebody else got there first.  I'm not interested in the domestic-versus-Toyota penis-waving as a whole, but that argument is just ludicrous.

[rrocket]

  I'm not interested in the domestic-versus-Toyota penis-waving as a whole,

Nah..you're above that.  You save yourself for the Germans cars vs. the World threads....

[Mitlov]

  I'm not interested in the domestic-versus-Toyota penis-waving as a whole,

Nah..you're above that.  You save yourself for the Germans cars vs. the World threads....

Right...that's why I said that the Lexus IS250 was a vastly superior car to the MB C300...because I'm a German car whore like AS is a Toyota whore and GMGod and several other members are GM whores.  You got me pinned. 

[zapplez]

You are losing it.

You're sounding very familar.   

I can see you admitted defeat, once again not arguing the actual points I brought up. Attacking my character is fine, it doesn't offend me.  Out of curiosity, what do you drive?

[zapplez]

with all due respect to all of the people (barrie  ) buying gm products.  gm needs to bring the whole package to the showroom consistently.  if they did people would buy them.   look at honda.  they have spent 30 years bringing solid products to canada and when they do have an issue the seem to deal with the problem quickly. yes company reputation is very important when i buy a car and i am guessing it is important to a lot of people. company reputation = resale.   thats why people see honda and toyota as THE cars to buy for durability regardless of model.   sure gm builds some durable cars but they rarely put it all together.  mileage, price, durability, desirability (visual/ergonomic design), proper manual transmission etc etc.  imo saturn is the only division that has really made a move to present a consistently solid lineup. 

You do realize there are class action lawsuits against both Honda and Toyota over products right? No single automaker is perfect.

[tpl]

with all due respect to all of the people (barrie  ) buying gm products.  gm needs to bring the whole package to the showroom consistently.  if they did people would buy them.   look at honda.  they have spent 30 years bringing solid products to canada and when they do have an issue they seem to deal with the problem quickly. yes company reputation is very important when i buy a car and i am guessing it is important to a lot of people. company reputation = resale.   thats why people see honda and toyota as THE cars to buy for durability regardless of model.   sure gm builds some durable cars but they rarely put it all together.  mileage, price, durability, desirability (visual/ergonomic design), proper manual transmission etc etc.  imo saturn is the only division that has really made a move to present a consistently solid lineup. 

Only 10% of the people care about the manual transmission and historically at least, GM have made the very best automatic transmissions.... used by BMW and Rolls Royce at times.
But I think you are correct tho'  as a PACKAGE, the Asian manufacturers have got it right this last 20 years or so.  So the big question for GM IMO is can they not only catch up where they are behind ( small and medium cars ) but get ahead.  I am quite sure that they have the engineering and design talent and, if they get going right now, the money... but do they have the management talent and, importantly IMHO the guts to ignore the focus groups that have given us bad ( aka oversized,ugly, big engined cars with Landau roofs) cars and the building-to-a-price-point marketing people who have given us cheap ( aka nasty and unreliable)  cars.

[zapplez]

with all due respect to all of the people (barrie  ) buying gm products.  gm needs to bring the whole package to the showroom consistently.  if they did people would buy them.   look at honda.  they have spent 30 years bringing solid products to canada and when they do have an issue the seem to deal with the problem quickly. yes company reputation is very important when i buy a car and i am guessing it is important to a lot of people. company reputation = resale.   thats why people see honda and toyota as THE cars to buy for durability regardless of model.   sure gm builds some durable cars but they rarely put it all together.  mileage, price, durability, desirability (visual/ergonomic design), proper manual transmission etc etc.  imo saturn is the only division that has really made a move to present a consistently solid lineup. 

please enlighten me.

You do realize there are class action lawsuits against both Honda and Toyota over products right? No single automaker is perfect.

http://www.lawcash.com/attorney/4968/toyota-motor-sales-usa-lawsuit.asp
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/montreal/story/2008/07/04/qc-toyotalawsuit0704.html?ref=rss
http://www.lawcash.com/attorney/4520/toyota-goodyear-lawsuit.asp
http://www.honda-tech.com/zerothread?id=1817994&postid=24990267
http://www.poynerbaxter.com/Honda%20odometer.htm
http://www.hbsslaw.com/honda_lawsuit.htm
http://blogs.automotive.com/6211681/miscellaneous/honda-civic-brings-lawsuits-as-well-as-profits-to-automaker/index.html

5 minute google search....

[initial_D]

There is also an elderly woman who get millions from McDonald's because of of hot coffee. lawsuits don't mean anything, it is an American pass time.

Be thankful there will be parts after 3 years to service your vehicle.

[safristi]

zap_LESS....... are ya a johnny come cash_less Lately.......

[ArticSteve]

You are losing it.

You're sounding very familar.   

I can see you admitted defeat, once again not arguing the actual points I brought up. Attacking my character is fine, it doesn't offend me.  Out of curiosity, what do you drive?

I can see you admitted defeat

 

once again not arguing the actual points I brought up

I don't remember seeing anything like that.  Just the same old crap from JD Powers et al.  Buick will soon be history and the Allure was a sales turkey as demonstrated by your low purchase price.  They even botched the name.  It's the work of the devil.