Author Topic: So many GM brands.....  (Read 49884 times)

Offline ArticSteve

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #80 on: July 14, 2008, 10:17:41 pm »
I am going to have to disagree with you toolatecrew.

I am very biased, considering I just bought a 07 Buick (and I am 20 years old ;)).
For people who are large and like a car with a lot of storage space, room, and a more powerful engine than most an I4, Buick is a smart choice. It comes with a 80k/160k powertrain warranty, and is #1 for reliablity (tied with Lexus).

Buick is still a respected name in the eyes of many, and entry-level luxury is still an important market for GM to operate in.

Pontiac in Canada is a strong competitor still. The solistice and the sky have dramatically different looks so they should compete against each other. The G8 (and the GTO) were exciting Holden designs. Many shoppers want the slightly different tuned Pontiac style.

I see a steady market for both brands for years to come.

It comes with a 80k/160k powertrain warranty, and is #1 for reliablity (tied with Lexus). [/b]

 :rofl:  Ya just gotta love ppl.

Offline The Mighty Duck

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #81 on: July 14, 2008, 11:11:38 pm »
That's not my argument.  Here is a list of cars GM offers that I think are highly competitive in their segments (not perfect for everybody...only a partisan fanboy would make such an argument, but highly competitive).  These cars aren't single-minded like the Corvette and Cobalt SS Turbo, which excel on the speed and price front but lag elsewhere.  They're genuinely well-rounded, competent, vehicles that many buyers would enjoy:

Saturn Astra--compact economy cars.
Chevy Malibu--family sedans.
Saturn Vue--compact crossovers.
Saturn Outlook, GMC Acadia, Buick Enclave--large crossovers and minivan substitutes.
Cadillac CTS--luxury sports sedans.

If you're argument is that GM, as a sole entity, is competitive, you're somewhat right.  However, I think your assertion that prejudices are misplaced is itself misplaced: the cars you've named are almost entirely new models, and three belong to Saturn, which is probably one of GM's lowest-profile brand.  So while yes, GM offers some great vehicles, they're not nearly high profile enough to change prejudices.  And more to the point, these good models do not overcome the perception of lackluster vehicles because they are overshadowed by  higher-profile vehicles that deserve their poor reputation: the base-model Cobalt/G5, the G6, the Optra, Wave, etc...

Walking onto a Chevrolet lot is a painful experience, with only two bright spots on it: the Cobalt SS and the Tahoe (and the Corvette, for those that enjoy it ;)).

If you walked onto a Honda lot, you would find three very competitive cars in the Fit, Civic, and Accord.  By your own list, to find equally competitive cars in the same class from GM, you would need to visit two different lots, and even then you're only 2/3: they don't offer anything good in the sub-compact market.

That GM has some competitive models does not mean GM as a company is competitive.  Of course, the reverse is also true: just because GM is overall still fairly lousy imo, that does not mean they offer nothing of value.  :)

Offline Dante

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #82 on: July 15, 2008, 12:02:36 am »
The problem with GM is not that it doesn't have competitive models, but they don't have a full line or a subset at least of competitive models for each brand. You have to go across many brands in order to find a competitive car.

Chevy -> Malibu (mid-size car) and Traverse (full-size CUV)
Caddilac ->CTS (mid-size)
Pontiac-> G8 (RWD full-size sport sedan)
GMC -> Acadia (full-size CUV)
Buick -> Enclave (full-size CUV)
Saturn -> Astra (compact car), Aura (mid-size car), Vue (compact CUV), Outlook (full-size CUV)

I left out the specialty cars like Solstice/Sky, Corvette, Camaro, etc. with focus on what it would be a volume seller. I also mentioned only the new models which are indeed competitive today. The older ones are, well ... from the old GM we all know.

As you could see, some brands are one (competitive) model only, which is the issue on the discussion IMO. It seems like GM does not have the resources to properly support so many brands.
A mainstream nameplate (e.g.Chevy) today should have B,C,D cars and compact, mid-size, full-size CUVs. The rest are niche models. Same goes for the premium or luxury brands. This is where GM lacks today and it will take time to catch up, if ever.

Personally, I wouldn’t have a problem buying a GM car (I too buy the car not the badge) as the new Corsa or Astra (provided that we would get the original Opel version) would be on the top of my list in a couple of years if they reach our shores, but today, I wouldn't look at Aveo or Cobalt. I didn't even think about looking at the Equinox/Torrent last year when I was shopping for a compact SUV.

Mitlov

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #83 on: July 15, 2008, 03:22:16 am »
If you're argument is that GM, as a sole entity, is competitive, you're somewhat right.  However, I think your assertion that prejudices are misplaced is itself misplaced: the cars you've named are almost entirely new models, and three belong to Saturn, which is probably one of GM's lowest-profile brand.  So while yes, GM offers some great vehicles, they're not nearly high profile enough to change prejudices.  And more to the point, these good models do not overcome the perception of lackluster vehicles because they are overshadowed by  higher-profile vehicles that deserve their poor reputation: the base-model Cobalt/G5, the G6, the Optra, Wave, etc...

Walking onto a Chevrolet lot is a painful experience, with only two bright spots on it: the Cobalt SS and the Tahoe (and the Corvette, for those that enjoy it ;)).

If you walked onto a Honda lot, you would find three very competitive cars in the Fit, Civic, and Accord.  By your own list, to find equally competitive cars in the same class from GM, you would need to visit two different lots, and even then you're only 2/3: they don't offer anything good in the sub-compact market.

That GM has some competitive models does not mean GM as a company is competitive.  Of course, the reverse is also true: just because GM is overall still fairly lousy imo, that does not mean they offer nothing of value.  :)

I would agree that Honda is more consistent at making "pretty good" cars, whereas GM is all over the place with the quality of their designs.  I would also agree that, in my opinion, the GM turn-around didn't start until this decade (first-generation CTS and the Cobalt replacing the Cavalier spring to mind), and they didn't start really nailing it beautifully until about the 2007 model year.

But here's my problem with what you say: you say that you can go to the same dealership to buy a Fit AND a Civic AND an Accord, whereas you need to go to two different dealerships to buy an Astra and a Malibu.  But so what?  I'm not going to buy two new cars the same day!  Maybe the Honda way makes more sense from a corporate profit standpoint (though Porsche seems to disagree, seeing as it's about to take over the marque-heavy Volkswagen Auto Group).  But for the consumer, it really doesn't make a lick of difference whether a company's five best cars all have one badge or five different badges on the hood.  And I'm a consumer, not a shareholder.

Here's my other problem with Honda, as long as we're on the tangent of comparing Honda and GM and saying which we like better.  Honda consistently makes "pretty good" cars...but they are currently consistently making "pretty good" cars that I personally have absolutely no interest in.  I'd personally rather have an Accord over a Malibu, but I don't want either!  I'd rather have a CR-V than a Vue or an Equinox, but I don't want any of those!  The Fit's a very nice subcompact, but I don't want a subcompact.  Et cetera.  In the segments where I could actually envision myself buying a car, it seems that nowadays I consistently prefer the GM option over the Honda option.

*  Compact economy car?  I'd much rather have an Astra five-door (especially with the available sport suspension) over a Civic.  I like Teutonic driving dynamics, and I don't like Star Trek.

*  Sport compact?  I'd choose a Cobalt SS over a Civic Si in a heartbeat.  I like torque, particularly the turbocharged variety, and I don't like Star Trek any more when the USS Enterprise is lit with red light instead of blue.  And while the Civic Si does indeed have remarkable handling, the Cobalt SS Turbo has a much better chassis than most people give it credit for.

*  Upper-$30s (US) sport sedan?  I'd personally much rather have a second-generation CTS than a TL, for a multitude of reasons.

*  Just-shy-of-$30k (US) sport sedan?  As flawed as the Saab 9-3 2.0T is, it really lights my fire.  The second-generation TSX leaves me cold, and most reviewers (besides the Honda-loving C&D team) agree.  For the record, the first-gen TSX was another matter entirely...I loved driving it and nearly bought one (but then I knocked my wife up and, in a spate of pre-fatherhood panic, bought the painfully dull and generally unpleasant Legacy which I likely will never stop whining about).

So I'm not a "GM guy."  I'll freely admit that 2/3s their current line-up is total rubbish.  But the remaining 1/3 include several cars that I, personally, would actually want to own.  Whereas I, personally, only like one car that Toyota currently makes (the Lexus IS).  And that's one more than the number of cars I like in Honda's current line-up.  So while I understand the appeal of Honda and Toyota to the hypothetical "average buyer," this is why I keep piping up when the overwhelming majority of this forum dog-piles on GM and holds Honda and Toyota up as God's two gifts to humankind.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 03:23:58 am by Mitlov »

Offline Triple Bob

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #84 on: July 15, 2008, 07:33:17 am »
Interesting, we cross shopeed the TSX and the Saab 9-3, the Honda won hands down on build quality and feel.  Also the v-tec engine is awesome.

Just had a look at the Cobalt and the Si as we don't get either over here, both look pretty bland IMHO but with some sporty bodykit I think both would look good.  The Civic certainly has a very Japanese look about it, which isn't a bad thing. I think the Cobalt wins very slightly in the looks dept, I know nothing about the handling etc.

 :)


Choosing a car based on reliability is like choosing a wife based solely because she is punctual. There is more to it than that...

Offline toolatecrew

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #85 on: July 15, 2008, 08:31:22 am »
We are talking about brand rationalization from a corporate standpoint here and the Astra example is a prime one.

Lets say I'm shopping for a compact Car. I walk into Hinda. I say what you got? They say Civic. Top seller, well reviewed drive it you'll like it. I go to Toyota? Same thing with Corolla.

I go to Chevrolet Cobalt! I say well I was hoping for something more refined, well out together and better reviewed. What happens now. Does the Chev salesman say "OK drive 3 blocks down and go test drive the Astra" NO.

If I look for mid sized Honda says accord, toyota says Camary the Pontiac dealer says G6! He does not say drive 3 blocks and test drive the Malibu.

GM has brands where an "exclusive" model to that brand is vastley superior to the competing GM brand models  and more competative with other brands.

Brand loyalty that you may have built up is being wasted. Loyal Chev shoppers are being basically told you can't buy GM's best in class product here. You need to goto Saturn. Loyal Pontiac buyers are told you can't buy the best GM midsized here you need to go to Chev. These are VOLUME catagories. yet they continue to undermine themselves by not competing in these catagories on a VOLUME basis with their best products.

zapplez

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #86 on: July 15, 2008, 09:08:45 am »

How's the insurance on the Buick for a 20 years-old? 

Much better than any other comparable car in value. I am in a high risk class being a 20 year old male, but compared to say a Civic or Corolla, I have lower insurance.

I am going to have to disagree with you toolatecrew.

I am very biased, considering I just bought a 07 Buick (and I am 20 years old ;)).
For people who are large and like a car with a lot of storage space, room, and a more powerful engine than most an I4, Buick is a smart choice. It comes with a 80k/160k powertrain warranty, and is #1 for reliablity (tied with Lexus).

Buick is still a respected name in the eyes of many, and entry-level luxury is still an important market for GM to operate in.

Pontiac in Canada is a strong competitor still. The solistice and the sky have dramatically different looks so they should compete against each other. The G8 (and the GTO) were exciting Holden designs. Many shoppers want the slightly different tuned Pontiac style.

I see a steady market for both brands for years to come.

It comes with a 80k/160k powertrain warranty, and is #1 for reliablity (tied with Lexus). [/b]


 :rofl:  Ya just gotta love ppl.

Do some research buddy, its not solely imports that can be tops in reliabilty. Get your head out of the sand, its not 1994.

Offline ArticSteve

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #87 on: July 15, 2008, 01:27:40 pm »
Do some research buddy, its not solely imports that can be tops in reliabilty. Get your head out of the sand, its not 1994.


and is #1 for reliablity (tied with Lexus).

You made the statement so back it up ... and please no JD Powers surveys.  :)
« Last Edit: July 15, 2008, 01:37:11 pm by articsteve »

Offline The Mighty Duck

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #88 on: July 15, 2008, 01:47:15 pm »
Quote
But here's my problem with what you say: you say that you can go to the same dealership to buy a Fit AND a Civic AND an Accord, whereas you need to go to two different dealerships to buy an Astra and a Malibu.  But so what?  I'm not going to buy two new cars the same day!  Maybe the Honda way makes more sense from a corporate profit standpoint (though Porsche seems to disagree, seeing as it's about to take over the marque-heavy Volkswagen Auto Group).  But for the consumer, it really doesn't make a lick of difference whether a company's five best cars all have one badge or five different badges on the hood.  And I'm a consumer, not a shareholder.

It makes all the difference in the world.  If you walk into a Honda dealer looking for a mid-size car, you know they have something good in the Accord.  Maybe you know this because your neighbor has a Civic and it's fantastic, or your coworker drives a Fit and loves it.  The point is, you can extrapolate - accurately, in this case - that Honda builds a good product and go into a dealer with confidence.

Whereas, perhaps your neighbour drives a CTS and adores it.  Well, that's great, but you can't walk into a Chevrolet/Cadillac dealer and buy their best small car.  And when that consumer does walk onto the Chevrolet lot and looks at the base model Cobalt, they might just be put off, and so avoid GM entirely from then on, even though the Astra is for sale down the street and is a very good car.

You're right it doesn't make a difference what badge is on the car once the buyer owns it, but it makes all the difference during that buying process.  Most buyers are not the same as CTC members: they do not go into a deal with the mindset and knowledge of detail we do.

zapplez

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #89 on: July 15, 2008, 02:01:06 pm »
Do some research buddy, its not solely imports that can be tops in reliabilty. Get your head out of the sand, its not 1994.


and is #1 for reliablity (tied with Lexus).

You made the statement so back it up ... and please no JD Powers surveys.  :)

If you just blanketly dismiss JD Power and similars I would like to know what you judge cars on besides anecdotal evidence?

NOTE : you will have to add the http and www, I could not complete the post with hyperlinks as I have less than 10 posts.

signonsandiego.com/uniontrib/20041031/news_mz1d31buick.html
A review stating buick's known reliablity as a plus.

canadiandriver.com/articles/cc/00-05lesabre.htm
canadiandriver.com/roadtest/97-04regal.htm
Two CANADIAN DRIVER articles about better than average Buick reliablity

fireballroberts.com/buick_test.htm
going back oldschool

and if you have access to consumer reports ratings, they are the same if not very close to lexus, when no other company (including toyota/honda) is very close to those 2.

Offline ArticSteve

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #90 on: July 15, 2008, 03:12:38 pm »
If you just blanketly dismiss JD Power and similars I would like to know what you judge cars on besides anecdotal evidence?

The wholesale used market place is the final decider of a car's worth and FUTURE reliability is a big component, not what the car is like after 6 months of ownership vis-a-vis some lame telephone survey.  You got a stinking low price because the used market place doesn't want that car.  Not because of it's styling either.

zapplez

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #91 on: July 15, 2008, 03:21:39 pm »
If you just blanketly dismiss JD Power and similars I would like to know what you judge cars on besides anecdotal evidence?

The wholesale used market place is the final decider of a car's worth and FUTURE reliability is a big component, not what the car is like after 6 months of ownership vis-a-vis some lame telephone survey.  You got a stinking low price because the used market place doesn't want that car.  Not because of it's styling either.

The study I was reference in my claim of Buick being tied for #1 was conducted over 3 years.
I paid less than many would pay for a used Civic or Corolla, and I have a better warranty and engine. I am happy. I hope me being satisfied with a domestic doesn't screw up your world view ;)

gmgod

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #92 on: July 15, 2008, 05:39:48 pm »
My neighbor has a Honda. He's always saying how good it is , even after he spends a couple grand getting the tranny fixed.LOL , I'M NOT CONVINCED!!!

Offline Triple Bob

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #93 on: July 15, 2008, 05:44:23 pm »
My neighbor has a Honda. He's always saying how good it is , even after he spends a couple grand getting the tranny fixed.LOL , I'M NOT CONVINCED!!!

Well that's all the evidence I need, I'm never buying H_nda again, ever!  :o :o :o

Even a TSX wiv navi lolz!

 :rofl2: :rofl2:

Offline Triple Bob

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #94 on: July 15, 2008, 06:16:45 pm »
I would actually quite like a chevy avalanche...  :)

Offline ArticSteve

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #95 on: July 15, 2008, 06:28:44 pm »
If you just blanketly dismiss JD Power and similars I would like to know what you judge cars on besides anecdotal evidence?

The wholesale used market place is the final decider of a car's worth and FUTURE reliability is a big component, not what the car is like after 6 months of ownership vis-a-vis some lame telephone survey.  You got a stinking low price because the used market place doesn't want that car.  Not because of it's styling either.

The study I was reference in my claim of Buick being tied for #1 was conducted over 3 years.
I paid less than many would pay for a used Civic or Corolla, and I have a better warranty and engine. I am happy. I hope me being satisfied with a domestic doesn't screw up your world view ;)

I am happy

Well that is the important part, but please lets have no more about your 07 Allure having the same reliability as it's counterpart a 07 Lexus ES350.  It's beyond fantasy.  :)

zapplez

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #96 on: July 15, 2008, 08:49:28 pm »
If you just blanketly dismiss JD Power and similars I would like to know what you judge cars on besides anecdotal evidence?

The wholesale used market place is the final decider of a car's worth and FUTURE reliability is a big component, not what the car is like after 6 months of ownership vis-a-vis some lame telephone survey.  You got a stinking low price because the used market place doesn't want that car.  Not because of it's styling either.

The study I was reference in my claim of Buick being tied for #1 was conducted over 3 years.
I paid less than many would pay for a used Civic or Corolla, and I have a better warranty and engine. I am happy. I hope me being satisfied with a domestic doesn't screw up your world view ;)

I am happy

Well that is the important part, but please lets have no more about your 07 Allure having the same reliability as it's counterpart a 07 Lexus ES350.  It's beyond fantasy.  :)

I am not a NA car fanboy, if I had the money I would love a Lexus or BMW. What evidence do you have that either vehicle is inherently more reliable though? Besides anecdotes.

Offline Sir Osis of Liver

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #97 on: July 15, 2008, 09:26:03 pm »
Just happen to have my Consumers Reports April 08 issue. zapples is indeed correct.

Buick Lacross (Allure in Canada) has a better than average reliability rating and is recommended.

Toyota Camry V6 is no longer recommended as its reliability has slipped to worse than average.

Lexus ES 350 has an average reliability rating and is recommended.

You might as well talk to drywall, zapplez. Artic is a complete Toyota fanboy and will just keep spouting near incomprehensible :censor:, till you just give up.
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Offline ArticSteve

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #98 on: July 15, 2008, 09:56:01 pm »
Just happen to have my Consumers Reports April 08 issue
 :rofl:

What evidence do you have that either vehicle is inherently more reliable though? Besides anecdotes.

If you drive it long enough you'll find out.

Lets take GM's combo fuel sender and fuel pump that they so stupidly went with in all cars.  Trucks were spared.

Fuel senders are generally $100 and can be changed with the tank still in the car.  That is the way for almost all cars and for GM until the early 2000s.  OEM Fuel pumps for most cars are usually $200.00.  What GM did is combine those both into one unit together with the "plumbing" harness.  Costs about $700.(for the part) and doesn't really matter if it's a Cobalt or a Allure because it's essentially the same part.

The bad is yet to come.  :)    To get this combo unit installed the tank must come off the car.  That might be not a great problem in Arizona, but not great in snow/salt locations.  Generally, a simple little problem ends up costing a bundle whether it be the fuel sender or the fuel pump.

Japanese and Euro cars; open trunk, remove 3 screws on plate, reach into tank and replace.  10 MINUTES.  Can be done ANYWHERE.  That is just one minor example why used domestic cars such as Buick's yield lousy resale despite what ppl read in Consumers Reports.  :P   

Offline ArticSteve

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Re: So many GM brands.....
« Reply #99 on: July 15, 2008, 10:14:23 pm »
actually i have never put much faith in those reports.

 :cheers:

If the report covers a TEN year period or even a 5 year period on the same model  then maybe it's got some validity to it.  But to base the report on one year is ridiculous.  Case in point is the 07 Camry V6's automatic.  Sure they had a few turkeys.  But what resulted is an absolute no dicker replacement with mandatory car rental. Problem is fixed now, but to rate the car as a no buy is typically Consumer Reports.  They should stick to toasters.