Topic: So many GM brands.....

[dr_spock]

What brands does Nascar run?

[Mitlov]

What brands does Nascar run?

I think it's just Ford, Chevy, Dodge, Toyota.  Pontiac used to participate but was withdrawn from NASCAR at the end of the 2003 season.  Buick hasn't raced in NASCAR since the 1980s, I think.

[ovr50]

What brands does Nascar run?

NASCAR only runs "brands" to the extent of cosmetics ie. decals for name, light packages, etc. Basically the cars are all the same, and are differentiated only by decal for marketing purposes.

Didn't used to be that way years ago, but is now. Years ago, the NASCAR racers were actually the cars made by Ford, GM or Chrysler.

[footlong58]

What brands does Nascar run?

NASCAR only runs "brands" to the extent of cosmetics ie. decals for name, light packages, etc. Basically the cars are all the same, and are differentiated only by decal for marketing purposes.

Didn't used to be that way years ago, but is now. Years ago, the NASCAR racers were actually the cars made by Ford, GM or Chrysler.

The respective brands still make the engines though... Blocks mostly... I think a lot of teams develop their own heads...

[Mitlov]

you are comparing ferrari, maserati, bentley, vw/audi, bugatti etc with chevy, buick, pontiac and caddy??   those "divisions" of fiat and vw have very long histories of racing and branding recognition.   so now you want to try to revive brands that mean absolutely nothing to the general public?  its a big waste of money.  honda and toyota spent alot of money building their luxury brands for the past 25 years.  gm has spent the last 35 years turning their divisions into clones of each other. 

If you don't think that Chevy and Cadillac don't have "brand recognition," and those names "mean absolutely nothing to the general public," you're completely out-of-touch with the extremely large car market to your immediate south.  The same is true of Buick and Pontiac, though to a lesser degree.

Cadillac is a historic and automotive icon.  I didn't like the DeVille either, but that doesn't mean that Cadillac isn't an icon.  The fact that the phrase "the Cadillac of," meaning the biggest and fanciest of, is used in everyday speech by non-car-people says all that needs to be said.

Los Angeles Times: The Cadillac of Mars Rovers

Crave: The Cadillac of Kitchen Scales

Telepresence: The Cadillac of Videoconferencing

If that's not brand recognition, I don't know what is.

sorry but maybe 40 years ago caddy meant something but no more. bmw, merc, audi and lexus still come out on top.  yes,  i can see them working with the caddy name because it has made some interesting cars of late but they have 30 years of lackluster efforts to overcome. 

In terms of sales and profits, probably yes.  But you were talking "brand recognition,"  And Cadillac is still one of the top players in the United States on that front.  Nobody talks about "the Audi of Mars Rovers" or "the Infiniti of speedboats."  You claimed that Maserati has more "brand recognition" than Cadillac, and that the Cadillac name means "absolutely nothing to the general public."  That's what I was responding to.  I can't speak for Canada, but in the States, you will not find a single person who doesn't know what you mean when you say something is "the Cadillac of private planes."  Yet I suspect a third of the people in Medford, Oregon couldn't even tell you if Maserati is a car or motorcycle or speedboat manufacturer.

By the way, does Canada have a hip-hop scene of any significant size?  Because Caddy's presence in the hip-hop scene is HUGE...

[Mitlov]

it's a coined phrase. that's all.

If we're talking about "brand image," a phrase like that says it all.  The Cadillac name still carries a lot of weight.

From a practical perspective, what that means is that while a company like Hyundai or even Acura has a huge uphill battle to convince customers that they're top of the luxury heap, Cadillac merely has to introduce a couple great models and say "we're back."  (Caddy is very similar to Mercedes in that way, in my opinion.  Mercedes had a really rough decade, but basically said "we're back" with the new C-Class and more and more people are now acting like they never left).  So yes, I think that Cadillac still has a good brand image in the States.  Canada may be different.

yes, we in canada have hip hop. those are the guys obsessed with guns, gang bangin and big ostentatious ugly suvs right?  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5GlDagXfy4   that is the association they want to develop?  sorry mitlov but gm/caddy need to start selling cars to the rest of the world.   

That's about as ignorant as saying that rock is nothing more a bunch of guys obsessed with cocaine and prostitutes.

We were talking about brand image, and the fact is, of non-exotic brands, Cadillac and Mercedes have the best brand image in the hip-hop scene.  (As for the exotic brands, Bentley and Lamborghini enjoy the most prestige, most likely).  And hip hop fans aren't a bunch of "gang-bangers," for the record--when I was at Tufts U, I think it's safe to say that more premed and international relations majors listened to top-40 hip-hop than top-40 rock.  Ignoring these people as a bunch of "gang bangers" is ignoring a substantial proportion of the next generation of luxury car buyers. 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y5GlDagXfy4

I think Top Gear is hilarious too, but don't tell me you're actually citing it for serious market analysis instead of merely humorous stereotyping of cars (and car buyers).

[Mitlov]

the rest of europe does laugh at american cars.  why?  because american automakers produce cars only for america.  they are too big, rough, gas guzzling and poorly built.

Thanks for clearing that up.  I feel so much more enlightened now.

[Ex-airbalancer]

mitlov,  i must say, it is good having you on this web site.  you offer a typically myopic, navel gazing, american view.  good luck gm.

 

That's about as ignorant as saying that rock is nothing more a bunch of guys obsessed with cocaine and prostitutes.

Mitlov , I am very disappointed in this statement

They did not have prostitutes it was groups

[Mitlov]

Groupies!  How could I forget about wild throngs of barely-18 groupies?  Touche, airbalancer 

Kevlar,

The great thing about this site is that I can be called a rabid BMW fanboy and then, not two days later, be called a rabid GM fanboy.  Always keeps me on my toes...

they are too big, rough, gas guzzling and poorly built.

Which are characteristics that are absolutely intolerable on the continent that brought us the Phantom, the Fortwo, the AMG line, and Alfa Romeo 

[safristi]

 were those "groups" GM's?     Genetically MODIFIED....inna Booty area........i DRIVE a CHESTY MORGAN.............. ...

[gmgod]

Gm has all these beautiful cars. Clearly dominating any catagory they choose. The black sheep however seems to be Pontiac.It seems like the lost step child.

[Allen]

Gm has all these beautiful cars. Clearly dominating any catagory they choose.

LMFAO

[gmgod]

Gm has all these beautiful cars. Clearly dominating any catagory they choose.

LMFAO

Considering what you drive  , I wouldn't laugh too hard.

[Snowman]

Gm has all these beautiful cars. Clearly dominating any catagory they choose.

LMFAO

Considering what you drive  , I wouldn't laugh too hard.

  what do drive? Tonka?

[Sir Osis of Liver]

  because american automakers produce cars only for america.  they are too big, rough, gas guzzling and poorly built.

Ever look at an issue of Consumer Reports? North American brands have been consistently beating Euro brands for reliability for years and by wide margins!

Ford as an example has 41 out of 44 models as average or better. Compare that with VW/Audi or MB for a real eye opener. GM is only marginally behind Ford, and that has to do mostly with the age of some of their models. Same with the "gas-guzzling" BS, compare models in the same categories and the Euros are lagging, except for the diesels, which we can't get here.

1995 called, they want their prejudices back.

Back on topic, I liked the idea that was floated a while back of turning Pontiac into the RWD sporty division, splitting the bread and butter Chevy, and top of the line Caddy. Dropping divisions is very expensive in the (very litigious) US though.
More realistically, better division differentiation is likely their best bet.

[Mitlov]

  because american automakers produce cars only for america.  they are too big, rough, gas guzzling and poorly built.

Ever look at an issue of Consumer Reports? North American brands have been consistently beating Euro brands for reliability for years and by wide margins!

Ford as an example has 41 out of 44 models as average or better. Compare that with VW/Audi or MB for a real eye opener. GM is only marginally behind Ford, and that has to do mostly with the age of some of their models.

Absolutely true.  Mercedes currently makes possibly the least-reliable cars on the road, according to Consumer Reports data.  You're FAR better off with a Lincoln on the reliability front, and probably much better off with a Caddy too (though I don't know the CTS's ratings off the top of my head).  And let's not even begin to compare parts prices.  You don't hear about Cadillac owners waiting a month for a $1,500 part from Germany, no?

Same with the "gas-guzzling" BS, compare models in the same categories and the Euros are lagging, except for the diesels, which we can't get here.

Again, true.  The 2008 Cadillac CTS (second-generation) with the upgraded engine (306 hp, I believe) is rated at 17 mpg city, 26 mpg highway, 20 mpg combined.  For comparison, the Mercedes C350 is rated by the US EPA at 17 mpg city, 25 mpg highway, 20 mpg combined. Not bad considering that the Caddy is bigger and more powerful. 

The 2008 A4 3.2 Quattro is also rated at 17 mpg city, 25 mpg highway, 20 mpg combined.  Yes, it's got AWD versus the Caddy's RWD, but the Caddy has perhaps 50 more horsepower and is closer in size to the A6 than the 2008 A4.

The 2008 BMW 335i is rated at 17 mpg city, 26 mpg highway, 20 mpg combined.  Once again, not beating the CTS on the fuel economy front, despite being smaller (though not appreciably less powerful).

...and as icing on the cake, the CTS is the only car above which is rated for regular gas instead of premium.

So in conclusion, you like German cars?  Great!  I do too.  Note my ride.  But don't justify your choice based upon reliability or fuel economy.

[barrie1]

GMGOD Welcome to the Forum. Glad to see another intelligent person who actually does know how to read and has knowledge of the real truth about the market place as well. These Rice Boys think they know it all but they don't at all. Their products are sliding downhill in the ratings and they don't even see it at all. It proves itself out in our repair section with these import brands leading the way for repairs every month. Has for several years now as well. 

[Mitlov]

ok let me see.     here is a couple of lists from the epa.

top mpg in small car class.

honda civic hybrid
mini cooper
corolla
yaris
kia rio
pontiac g5 xfe   xfe?   never seen this one
ford focus
honda fit
chevy aveo
hyundai accent
scion xd
mazda 3
nissan versa
chevy cobalt
suzuki sx4
vw rabbit
vw gti
vw jetta
mitsubishi lancer
nissan sentra
honda civic
vw beetle
suzuki forenza
suzuki reno
volvo c30  23 non american, 2 american

You must be reading it wrong.  Are you sure you're not reading ALL compact non-luxury cars, from most fuel efficient to least fuel efficient?  Because the cars on the bottom of that list, such as the Lancer, Beetle 2.5, and Volvo C30 really are terrible on fuel economy.  So it's not how many domestics are on the list, but where those which ARE on the list rank.

The following numbers are from the US EPA, compact cars, manual transmissions:

Ford Focus: 24 mpg city, 35 mpg highway, 28 combined.
Toyota Corolla: 26 mpg city, 35 mpg highway, 30 mpg combined.
Honda Civic: 26 mpg city, 34 mpg highway, 29 mpg combined.
VW Rabbit: 22 mpg city, 29 mpg highway, 24 combined.
Mazda3 2.0: 24 mpg city, 32 mpg highway, 27 combined.
Nissan Sentra: 24 mpg city, 31 mpg highway, 28 combined.
Mitsubishi Lancer: 21 mpg city, 29 mpg highway, 24 combined.
Hyundai Elantra: 24 mpg city, 33 mpg highway, 27 combined.

So the Ford Focus is slightly behind the class-leading Civic and Corolla, and ahead of every other car in the class, including the only European contender (Rabbit).  The Mini Cooper is a subcompact and thus is in a different class.

wow  seems like an all out slaughter for the japanese and korean.

See above; you missed the Focus.  And we were talking about Cadillac before, which is why I talked about entry-level luxury sedans.  Even when you change the subject of the discussion to bolster the results you want, you're still wrong.

the g5 whatever its called and cobalt are the only ones that are american.  the aveo is japanese or korean so it doesn't count.

As stated above, you forgot about the Focus, which (as internet forum-goers will never let us forget, is NOT the same car as the European Focus).

how about the all important family sedan category.

New Malibu (i4, 6AT) is 22 mpg city, 32 mpg highway, 25 mpg combined.
New Malibu (i4, 4AT) is 22 mpg city, 30 mpg highway, 24 mpg combined.
Accord (i4, AT) is 21 mpg city, 31 mpg highway, 24 mpg combined.
Camry (i4, AT) is 21 mpg city, 31 mpg highway, 25 mpg combined.

You can look up the rest at fueleconomy.gov, but it's just downhill from here.  The Malibu is up at the top of the midsize sedan class.  We can argue about 1 mpg here or there, but it's certainly at the top of the segment, not the middle or bottom.

Moral of the story: if you want a fuel-efficient compact car, the Ford Focus is one of the three best options out there.  If you want a fuel-efficient midsize car, the new Malibu is as good as any import, and better than most.  Your statement that domestics simply can't compete with imports on fuel economy is just plain wrong.  For any segment I can think of besides subcompacts and hybrids/diesels, there's at least one domestic model that is highly competitive in the fuel economy front.  Focus, Malibu, CTS (as described above), Flex (outdoes nearly every minivan on the market), Patriot (AWD 5MT fuel economy is remarkable for a compact crossover), Taurus (no large sedans are appreciably better to my knowledge). 

the steering feels like rubber.

Second-gen CTS outscored the new C-Class in steering feel in a C&D shootout.  The first-generation US Focus was also a segment leader, or at least close to it, in terms of steering feel.  Second-gen has been a bit of a step back, but I'm sure it still offers better steering feel than a Corolla.

  the materials look and feel cheap inside and out, even in the caddys. 

Try a second-gen CTS or a new Malibu, or an Acadia/Outlook.  It will make you rethink your dated stereotypes (which I wouldn't have argued with in 1995 but just aren't accurate in 2008).

[Thinking Out Loud]

 

ANYWAY.....before this thread goes the way of another flaming exercise of us versus them....

Even the Dealers - and there are likely a whack of them struggling now anyway with reduced sales in smaller markets - have to realize that taking a financial package may not be a bad idea - especially if the option for some is bankruptcy.

Litigation can likely be avoided if you have the right amount of cash and are talking to the right people that will listen to your message.

[gmgod]

GMGOD Welcome to the Forum. Glad to see another intelligent person who actually does know how to read and has knowledge of the real truth about the market place as well. These Rice Boys think they know it all but they don't at all. Their products are sliding downhill in the ratings and they don't even see it at all. It proves itself out in our repair section with these import brands leading the way for repairs every month. Has for several years now as well. 

Really Barrie, "rice boys"  I can't say you should know better, because I honestly don't believe you do.

It is what it is.Rice Boys don't have the car knowledge  that the rest of us do . Just read the forums.